short rebuttal to royalgate's sub-ohm advisory

[JohnD0406]

While that thread was closed for comments, I'd like to point out some food for thought. The essence of the advisory may be true, but it's flawed due to its blanket-statement approach.

Let's assume a 0.5-ohm (to qualify as sub-ohm) coil is enough to generate toxic materials. Let's also assume that a 1-ohm coil will not. In that case, would you not consider a dual-coil 0.5-ohm safe as it has two 1-ohm coils? What about a quad-coil with each coil being 2-ohms, where the overall resistance is still 0.5-ohms?

Let's take it a step further. Suppose you have an rda with a single 0.6-ohm coil, and it's generating toixic materials. 0.6-ohms on a full charge is 29W. Now let's take the "safe" 1.4-ohm coil on a dna-30 and run it at 6.3V to achieve 28W. Is that dangerous too?

It was a good post to make everyone aware of the inherent dangers of sub-ohming, but needs a lot more qualification, not only in sub-ohm builds on mechanical mods, but high-wattage VW devices as well.

Thoughts?

 

[VapinSweetZ]

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that. To me it's sounds like VV/VW with cartomizer can be much more dangerous due to cheap plastic and rubber materials.

What chemicals can a stainless steel RDA in sub ohm with plain VG/PG produce?

I'm not arguing with the section about specific flavors, that does makes sense to me.

Also, I'm sure something caused ECF to publish that warning, and I would love to hear who/what it was and if there's any article or a research to support this claim.

 

[CloudZ]

I didn't really like the post either. My :

The truth is, sub-ohm is not necessarily hotter... It is more intense because there is more vapor involved, but overheating juice is the same in everything. Burning juice ruins the flavor and no one is going to vape burnt juice constantly.

It's possible that the battery issue is somewhat relevant, but it doesn't hurt to be a little cautious in case your particular battery is not quite as resilient as the norm. If the battery itself gets hot, you're probably working it too hard.

 

[_sidekick_]

Well, I'm glad they backed up those statements with evidence from testing vapor produced by sub-ohm builds... Oh wait...

 

[edyle]

Well, I'm glad they backed up those statements with evidence from testing vapor produced by sub-ohm builds... Oh wait...

Well, I'm glad the rebuttal is backed up by a quote of what is being rebutted... Oh wait...

 

[WattWick]

I think much more details are needed. There is sub-ohm, and there is high temperature vaping. I don't see a magic line at 1 ohm. I vape at 0.8 (or 0.7-0.9) ohms, and the vapor is in no way hot. You could well make a setup with the same resistance that spits out scorching hot vapor.

Still there is a good point being made. More vapor = higher exposure to whatever's potentially harmful.

... anyway... I appreciate the concern. We can nitpick like I just did, or we can ponder the question "How many forum members does it take to make a post everyone can agree on?"

 

[JohnD0406]

Well, I'm glad the rebuttal is backed up by a quote of what is being rebutted... Oh wait...

You evidently missed the rather large yellow forum-wide sticky from our esteemed forum manager... But don't fret, I'll post a link so you know what this is all about.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html#post13116731

 

[ImThatGuy]

Oooohhh...great points...

 

[edyle]

You evidently missed the rather large yellow forum-wide sticky from our esteemed forum manager... But don't fret, I'll post a link so you know what this is all about.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html#post13116731

I saw it yesterday, read it, and dismissed the big yellow thing after I read the advisory.

Worth quoting if it is being discussed, so here:

ECF Sub-Ohm Advisory



Sub-ohm vaping has not caused any serious incidents that we are aware of, therefore we cannot describe this activity as risky. However, there are several areas of concern that some members may wish to take note of.


1. Batteries

Modern batteries are extremely safe compared to those we used to have. If a genuine IMR or hybrid rechargeable cell is destroyed by sub-ohming or some kind of fault, then what appears to happen is that it melts down without any significant out-gassing. The gas generation is the danger factor as it can lead to an explosion, if it takes place in a sealed device. A hot APV does not appear to be a significant danger except in some sort of fire-risk situation (maybe in a gas station, or on an old foam couch/sofa).

What is certainly an issue, though, is if a counterfeit battery is used by mistake; or if someone deliberately uses an ICR (regular Li-ion) cell instead of the modern type of safer-chemistry cell. In that case there could be a significant outgas risk in the event of a battery failure, which translates to risk for an explosive event.

Please make sure to use genuine IMR or hybrid cells from a reputable source, and DO NOT USE regular Li-ion cells (ICR) for heavy-duty applications like this.


2. Inhalation issues

It is more than likely that the super-heating of e-liquids that takes place in an RBA run at less than 1 ohm will create some toxic materials.

This is just plain logic and should not be seen as anything radically new: burning up refills creates some nasties and there is no way around that. It is likely that materials such as acrolein and aldehydes will be seen in measurable quantities, and some pyrolytic compounds may even be created.

Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms.

Buttery flavors
We have to add a specific note on butter/creamy flavors here. Diacetyl or a similar substitute is present in some flavors, and it is likely that many of this flavor group have exactly the same issues as diacetyl, since they are all fairly similar molecules. Because of the sheer volume of liquid consumed and vapor created by sub-ohming, all issues related to refill liquid safety are magnified.

Until more information is available, our advice is that all butter/cream type flavors are avoided for sub-ohm use (inhalation of the butter-popcorn flavoring diacetyl can cause the irreversible degenerative lung disease bronchiolitis obliterans, aka 'popcorn lung').

It's an Advisory, and it expresses "areas of concern".

So if there's something to rebutt or discuss in it, it would be clearer, if the relevant part is quoted.

Unless of course, one wants to rebut an "advisory", which seems illogical.

 

[edyle]

Looking it over now, it would appear for example, that the topic of the thread is concerned with item number 2 of the advisory, and not item number 1.

Item #2:

2. Inhalation issues

It is more than likely that the super-heating of e-liquids that takes place in an RBA run at less than 1 ohm will create some toxic materials.

This is just plain logic and should not be seen as anything radically new: burning up refills creates some nasties and there is no way around that. It is likely that materials such as acrolein and aldehydes will be seen in measurable quantities, and some pyrolytic compounds may even be created.

Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms.

 

[Ca Ike]

I have to agree that there should be a qualifier. I don't see running multiple coils at 2 ohms or greater having the same heat related chemistry changes as a single .5 ohm coil. Sure the overall resistance is in the sub ohm range but individual coil heat is the same as a single 2 ohm coil and once the vapor leaves the coil it instantly stabilizes temp or starts to cool. I don't have a mod capable of running sub ohm set ups or I'd do some inf temp testing comparisons.

Another thing to consider is puff time. Sub ohmers tend to do 2-3 sec puffs and not the 4+ sec puffs most of us do on std or LR coils. The coil temp hit in the 2-3 sec time may be no higher than what is hit on a std ohm coil in 4-5 secs.

Of course, like any burnt food product, be it hamburger , ETC , there will be a higher level of carbon based carcinogens in burnt juice vapor.

 

[Rapture]

Let's just hope vaping doesn't follow the same patterns as other things in life that are so "enjoyable" yet so "bad"

But what isn't bad for us...

Even the main reason we as humans exist is considered risky behavior. Try and reproduce with the wrong mate and your doomed.


Sent from my box mod using a raptor chip

 

[Talyon]

Silly wabbits, Trix are for kids...... But adults like them to.