An issue with the Sub-Ohm Advisory

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UncleChuck

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Here is the advisory in question:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html

Here is the part I take issue with:

"Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms."

I understand and appreciate the desire to keep the community safe, but this is simply inaccurate.

The paragraph suggests that sub-ohm builds are overheating vapor and producing dangerous cancer causing chemicals. Aside from the fact that not a single source was referenced, simple logic applied to the situation would strongly suggest subohm builds are no different in their potential danger than a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohm, I'll explain why.

When you get a dry/burnt hit, it's offensive. It stings the throat, and tastes awful. That's because overheating the eliquid causes the formation of Acrolein:

From Wikipedia:

"...is caused by glycerol in the burning fat breaking down into acrolein."

"[acrolein] is a colourless liquid with a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell."

Acrolein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the advisory was correct in suggesting that sub-ohm builds are overheating liquid, sub-ohm vapers would be constantly inhaling large amounts of acrolein. They aren't. A giant silky smooth cloud does not have significant quantities of Acrolein in it. A harsh hit from a 2.5 ohm coil with a choked wick (fairly common for the hit-or-miss quality of commercial coils) has significant enough quantities of acrolein to make most people want to vomit their lungs out.

If someone is inexperienced in coil building, it's very possible they could choke a wick or something else resulting in exactly what the advisory suggests. But the fact is, that has nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping, and non-subohm commercial equipment is just as likely to exhibit this, if not more likely.

Thoughts from the community?
 

Dissonance

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I was kinda curious about this myself... What would the difference (chemically, that is) be between firing a .6Ω coil from a freshly charged battery (29.4w in a perfect world with no voltage drop if I did my math right) versus a 1.5Ω coil at the same wattage (from a dna30 or similar ofc)? I know the 1.5Ω would take longer to heat up but wouldn't they essentially be the same?
 

UncleChuck

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I was kinda curious about this myself... What would the difference (chemically, that is) be between firing a .6Ω coil from a freshly charged battery (29.4w in a perfect world with no voltage drop if I did my math right) versus a 1.5Ω coil at the same wattage (from a dna30 or similar ofc)? I know the 1.5Ω would take longer to heat up but wouldn't they essentially be the same?

There are going to be some small differences in vape quality depending on all the variables of the build, as it's hard (if not impossible, not sure how you'd do it) to have two identical coils of differing resistance levels, but basically yeah the power level will be the same which means (other variables being equal as can be) the temp is going to be pretty similar. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it was a bid odd ;)
 

UncleChuck

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Yeah, I had a moment of pause on that as well. Appropriate airflow and juice availability for channeling the energy into phase change (vs generating more measurable heat) = more volume (not higher temperature).

. . . . . IMHO :)

Exactly, I'm not doubting that some people run subohm builds a bit past the edge of their wick's capabilities to keep up, and in doing so potentially overheat their liquid, but that person could do the same thing with a 2 ohm build.

I think a more accurate warning, if one is needed, would be to avoid high power levels in general, regardless of the resistance of your atty or type of mod being used until a person is experienced enough to make sure their high-powered setups are running right.

But thinking back to the countless dry burnt hits so common in the earlier days of vaping, it just seems very odd to single out sub-ohm vapers/builds as producing dangerous vapor when experience tells me the "standard" equipment suffers from coil overheating more frequently. Never forget my old Vivi Nova, where you could see glowing coil through the opening if you fired it on a (fixed voltage) ego battery for more than 4-5 seconds, with a full tank of juice no less.

Things seem to have gotten a lot better, but there are still plenty of crappy coil heads going around with the potential for similar issues, some of which will present themselves at 8-10 watts not 30-40 ;)
 

Hermit

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I wonder, perhaps instead of a sub-ohm warning it should be a make your own coil at your own peril warning? Harder to make the point, I suppose. I appreciate that for a site such as this, used as much as it is, erring on the side of caution is the best course. Should someone learn enough to disregard such warnings, they have learnt enough!

The way I see it, a sub-ohm coil will normally have more mass to heat up, so it needn't get any hotter. It's the extra surface area a vaper wants, to get more vapour production. Take a Mundy's Magic twist as an example - 9 strands in parallel will give low ohms, but also lots of wire to heat up.

What did the study actually test? If they simply put more and more watts through the same coil(s), it wouldn't surprise me to see more nasties produced. That would be a flaw in the test, if that was the case. Otherwise, if they changed the coil up appropriately, it's an interesting result.
 

UncleChuck

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What did the study actually test? If they simply put more and more watts through the same coil(s), it wouldn't surprise me to see more nasties produced. That would be a flaw in the test, if that was the case. Otherwise, if they changed the coil up appropriately, it's an interesting result.

AFAIK there is/was no test done, if there was it wasn't linked to in the advisory. I can understand caution but we're adults here. Scare tactics and exaggerations really aren't needed, facts, or at least a well thought out hypothesis is. Just my opinion of course.
 

Hermit

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The advisory mentions a study, at the end - "A research study has already indicated that the vapor created by high-power vaping contains more potentially toxic compounds".

Likely the one being reported on in this article: Some E-Cigarettes Deliver a Puff of Carcinogens.

Dr F's comments: Formaldehyde release in ecigarette vapor - The New York Times story explained in detail.

AFAICT it doesn't mention sub-ohming specifically, only higher wattages. There's some FUD about dripping in the article, but nothing specific, which suggests that the study either didn't actually test any drippers or didn't find anything media-panic-worthy. Even if they had, we'd have to know exactly what setup they were using for it to be relevant information.
 

Alexander Mundy

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I'm going to start with an analogy:

I was brought up in a family with very high performance automobiles. First one I had (came from my grandmother of all people) was a little over 450 HP. I had learned from an early age to respect power and how to apply it without going beyond the automobile and current environment envelope. We also learned how to make an automobile safe at the power level we were shooting for.. A driver who does not have that kind of background has a much better chance of disaster driving a high performance vehicle. Also, an idiot that drops 200HP into a VW bug without extensive chassis work (or outright replacement) is more than likely going to be in the headlines quickly, yet there are plenty of factory cars that exceed 200HP and they are not in every headline.

Anyone could create a "dirty vape" at 3.2 volts 2 ohms, accidentally or for more experienced builders on purpose. (Who hasn't at some point got that god awful draw from a high resistance coil, be it carto, tank, dripper, or BF etc. Experienced sub ohm coil builders can make a "clean vape" down to at least .4 ohm. A billion dollar study could be done and not cover every variable involved in the rest of my lifetime. It's an intricate dance involving surface area to power, wicking ability, different eliquid, different air flow speed/volume/relative vector directions, chamber design, etc. Change any of those and it affects he overall dance.

However, if we (experienced sub ohm coil builders) reflect on it, it does get more difficult for a noob to create a "clean vape" as the power goes up and the chassis doesn't change.

Maybe a sub ohm sub forum (with experienced sub ohm moderators) that noobs could be pointed to to ask experienced sub ohm builders their questions would be in order. I see some horrible crap that noobs probably cannot discern as crap. Fortunately there is usually someone experienced to rebut, but not always. They could be pointed to the sub ohm forum.

:)
 
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Midniteoyl

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Its called 'CYA'...


And Alexander hit it on the head.. Waayy too many new people going straight for the sub-ohm, high power stuff without a clue to what a volt is or even what 'VG' stands for. All they know is they want "what that guy has.. Those are awesome clouds, bro!" And before you chastise me for saying that, know that my SIL went through the same thing. While I am happy as hell that she no longer smokes (dropped them the first day :toast:), with-in 2 days (TWO DAYS) all she could tell me about vaping was that she wanted "those huge clouds like the guys at the Vape Shop do!" and brought home a mech and a generic RDA w/0.5ohm coil in it :facepalm:
 

treehead

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Here is the advisory in question:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html

Here is the part I take issue with:

"Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms."

I understand and appreciate the desire to keep the community safe, but this is simply inaccurate.

The paragraph suggests that sub-ohm builds are overheating vapor and producing dangerous cancer causing chemicals. Aside from the fact that not a single source was referenced, simple logic applied to the situation would strongly suggest subohm builds are no different in their potential danger than a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohm, I'll explain why.

When you get a dry/burnt hit, it's offensive. It stings the throat, and tastes awful. That's because overheating the eliquid causes the formation of Acrolein:

From Wikipedia:

"...is caused by glycerol in the burning fat breaking down into acrolein."

"[acrolein] is a colourless liquid with a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell."

Acrolein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the advisory was correct in suggesting that sub-ohm builds are overheating liquid, sub-ohm vapers would be constantly inhaling large amounts of acrolein. They aren't. A giant silky smooth cloud does not have significant quantities of Acrolein in it. A harsh hit from a 2.5 ohm coil with a choked wick (fairly common for the hit-or-miss quality of commercial coils) has significant enough quantities of acrolein to make most people want to vomit their lungs out.

If someone is inexperienced in coil building, it's very possible they could choke a wick or something else resulting in exactly what the advisory suggests. But the fact is, that has nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping, and non-subohm commercial equipment is just as likely to exhibit this, if not more likely.

Thoughts from the community?

I brought this up a while ago myself, nice job brother. Doesn't acrolein come from PG only that basically get's atomized? I thought it had to be somewhere in the triple digit temperatures.

I've always had this theory, as long as you have some juice (as any sane person would), I'd be willing to be that any amount of acrolein is most likely captured by the juice and deposited in the chamber or even wick, until you rinse it out. I remember looking it up and finding out that basically, you need to be trying to vape your wick alone to even produce acrolein from the burning fats in glycerol (just glycerol, I'm not sure how the propylene dirivative is altered, it may be acrolein free in the temperatures we vape), and god bless the person that does that, because a minor skin irritant is the least of said vapers problems lol.

It's been determined that the tolerable oral acrolein intake" of 7.5 μg/day per kilogram of body weight, that's ALOT of acrolein, not even glycols that are cooked on a frying pan, or grill have nearly that much acrolein. I don't think it's remotely possible for us to get that much acrolein through our tiny toppers and coils. Plus there's no risk of cancer with vaping, it is minorly carcinogenic, but only in it's GAS form. And coincidentally that's only found where combustion occurs *cough* smoking! *cough*.

I really think this is a desperate anti-ecig candidate, just skimming through wikipedia to find something wrong. I mean if it's a huge deal, the PG manfacturers can TEST for acrlolein before it gets shipped out. It can be purified more like so that no acrolein exists, this is why I like VG, because it's almost straight from the plant with no powerful acids, or any possibility for human error, just good'ol mother natures cooking oil.

Awesome post brother! :D
 

Alexander Mundy

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Since the coil works pretty much the same like the filament in a light bulb, a sub ohm coil will run hotter with high temperature. Whether it will produce more acrolein under higher temperature, it probably does.

Not true. All the things I mentioned earlier are involved.

Analogy time, a simple one this time.

Put an pot of water with a thermometer on a lit stove on low.
As long as the surface being heated has water the thermometer /edit/ reading /edit end/ will not rise above the boiling temperature.
Do the same on high.
Same result.
Remove the water and the results are not equal.

That is just one of many factors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_heat
 
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pdib

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Yeah, in a sense, excessive heat is energy-waste (in our undertakings). We are trying to use as much of the energy we are releasing from the battery for phase change (for converting liquid into steam/vapor) as we can. The process of liquid becoming vapor actually "uses up" the energy, eats it. Like Mundy's pot of water, a properly wicked, juiced and ventilated coil attains a certain temperature and stays there until the balance is disturbed. (like your wick runs dry)
 

Midniteoyl

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Yeah, in a sense, excessive heat is energy-waste (in our undertakings). We are trying to use as much of the energy we are releasing from the battery for phase change (for converting liquid into steam/vapor) as we can. The process of liquid becoming vapor actually "uses up" the energy, eats it. Like Mundy's pot of water, a properly wicked, juiced and ventilated coil attains a certain temperature and stays there until the balance is disturbed. (like your wick runs dry)

Which is why your coil glows when dry burning, but not when its wicked and full of juice.. Do that long enough, however, and it runs dry and starts to glow :)
 

pnyc

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Interesting. So a 60W incandescent bulb runs the same temperature as a 30W bulb? I believe they are hotter.



QUOTE=Alexander Mundy;13339140]Not true. All the things I mentioned earlier are involved.

Analogy time, a simple one this time.

Put an pot of water with a thermometer on a lit stove on low.
As long as the surface being heated has water the thermometer /edit/ reading /edit end/ will not rise above the boiling temperature.
Do the same on high.
Same result.
Remove the water and the results are not equal.

That is just one of many factors.

Latent heat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE]
 
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pdib

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the filament in your lightbulb isn't dissipating the energy into a liquid and changing it into steam. It takes energy to turn a liquid into a gas. When you use up the energy to change a substance from liquid to gaseous state. . . . . . you can't simultaneously create the same amount of light, or heat. Take a red hot poker and dip it into a bucket of water. Pull it out and look at it. Is it still red? Take your light bulb filament and . . . . .. naw, maybe not. :)

(if you put your 60 Watt energy source into twice as much water as your 30 W source, you'll heat 2x the water to the same temp . . . . -ish)


(given sufficient liquid in the system, you don't make hotter steam, you make more steam)
 
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