An issue with the Sub-Ohm Advisory

[Midniteoyl]

Actually, that 30w will heat up the same amount of water to the same temp, it'll just take 2x a long.. -ish

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Interesting. So a 60W incandescent bulb runs the same temperature as a 30W bulb? I believe they are hotter.

All other things being equal a 60W lamp filament with the same color of light IS the same temperature as a 30W lamp filament, it will just output more light and heat. Heat is not equivalent to temperature. More heat will cause the envelope of the bulb to go to a higher temperature assuming the same thermal radiation and convection around the bulb.

Color temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"An incandescent lamp's light is thermal radiation, and the bulb approximates an ideal black-body radiator, so its color temperature is essentially the temperature of the filament."

Black-body radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Convection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thermal radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alexander Mundy]

C'mon Alex...although you may think that analogy is simple...did you forget where you are?

Yes sir I did.

I'm finished mucking someone else's thread up.

 

[pnyc]

Thanks for the explanation. Good to learn more.

All other things being equal a 60W lamp filament with the same color of light IS the same temperature as a 30W lamp filament, it will just output more light and heat. Heat is not equivalent to temperature. More heat will cause the envelope of the bulb to go to a higher temperature assuming the same thermal radiation and convection around the bulb.

Color temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"An incandescent lamp's light is thermal radiation, and the bulb approximates an ideal black-body radiator, so its color temperature is essentially the temperature of the filament."

Black-body radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Heat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Convection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thermal radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rapture]

I feel quite uneasy being that I'm vaping a .35 coil at around 6 volts right now...

I think I know what acrolein tastes like though. The other day I took a huge drag of a dried out cotton wick at around 100 watts. It was hot and tasted horrible, also irritated my throat.

Do you guys think higher wattages like I'm using create more vapor because it's hotter? Or because it turns the juice into vapor quicker? Or both?

Surprisingly vaping at this wattage I have only once gotten a dry bad tasting drag. I keep my wicks saturated at all times. I change my cotton like once a day not because it's burnt but just because I like fresh cotton.


Sent from my box mod using a raptor chip

 

[Midniteoyl]

The higher wattages can turn more liquid to vapor quicker than the wicks ability to supply liquid to the coil. When there is insufficient liquid to vaporize, taking heat away from the coil and wick, the wick will start to burn.

 

[Rapture]

The higher wattages can turn more liquid to vapor quicker than the wicks ability to supply liquid to the coil. When there is insufficient liquid to vaporize, taking heat away from the coil and wick, the wick will start to burn.

Yes I am aware of dry wicks burning and all that. I guess my main question is... Is there a greater risk of acrolein in a 120 watt vape as opposed to a regular ego clearomizer setup given both wicks never get dry and always have plenty of juice and airflow to keep them cool? High VG in both


Sent from my box mod using a raptor chip

 

[Midniteoyl]

Yes I am aware of dry wicks burning and all that. I guess my main question is... Is there a greater risk of acrolein in a 120 watt vape as opposed to a regular ego clearomizer setup given both wicks never get dry and always have plenty of juice and airflow to keep them cool? High VG in both


Sent from my box mod using a raptor chip

That I am not sure, but, the way I believe it works is as long as the wick and coil have sufficient juice supplied to replenish what is vaporized, the answer would be no. The problem is in keeping the coil supplied as the amount of liquid turned to vapor is huge

 

[Rapture]

That I am not sure, but, the way I believe it works is as long as the wick and coil have sufficient juice supplied to replenish what is vaporized, the answer would be no. The problem is in keeping the coil supplied as the amount of liquid turned to vapor is huge

I think I may pick up a surface temp reader and measure the temp of saturated coils at various watts. Anyone wanna take some temperature guesses?

 

[Midniteoyl]

I have an IR reader, so would be cheating

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Actually someone that sells very high end IR imaging equipment pointed out that even with a $50,000 piece of equipment it is not trivial to get accurate readings and use of a regular IR reader would not tell the story.

False color IR image

This was without airflow and getting images inside an atty under actual use would be darn near impossible.

 

[Rapture]

Actually someone that sells very high end IR imaging equipment pointed out that even with a $50,000 piece of equipment it is not trivial to get accurate readings and use of a regular IR reader would not tell the story.

False color IR image

This was without airflow and getting images inside an atty under actual use would be darn near impossible.

That is true. Your right the temperature would be impacted by the airflow inside of a closed compartment. Still might be place to start to measure surface temps of a un capped atty by blowing on it and see how it compares to a dry coil or not blowing. See what kinda of ball park where in

 

[Rapture]

I just took a huge dry hit at around 6 volts @ .4 ohms. Accidentally of course, and it tasted horrible, hot, burnt. Here's the catch, I took out my cotton and it was not burnt at all. The wires were still brand new. Not even the slightest yellow cotton or residue or anything. What did I taste? Acrolein? I am vaping unflavored 6mg at around 89vg 9pg and 1distilled water.

 

[Rapture]

I was using raw organic cotton.

 

[wallacecarey]

Here is the advisory in question:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/rebuildable-atomizer-systems/562106-ecf-sub-ohm-advisory.html

Here is the part I take issue with:

"Inhalation of sub-ohm vapor is probably not the same as regular vapor and therefore may have additional risk. It is likely to create conditions where potential carcinogens (cancer-causing agents) will be seen in measurable amounts, and so there must be some elevation of risk, which will escalate as resistance goes down and heat goes up.

We can regard this as significantly more important than battery safety at this time: there are no reported incidents of exploding APVs or house fires caused by sub-ohm rigs self-destructing; but there are probably thousands of people inhaling materials that are simply not present in vapor from a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohms."

I understand and appreciate the desire to keep the community safe, but this is simply inaccurate.

The paragraph suggests that sub-ohm builds are overheating vapor and producing dangerous cancer causing chemicals. Aside from the fact that not a single source was referenced, simple logic applied to the situation would strongly suggest subohm builds are no different in their potential danger than a regular clearo run at 2.5 ohm, I'll explain why.

When you get a dry/burnt hit, it's offensive. It stings the throat, and tastes awful. That's because overheating the eliquid causes the formation of Acrolein:

From Wikipedia:

"...is caused by glycerol in the burning fat breaking down into acrolein."

"[acrolein] is a colourless liquid with a piercing, disagreeable, acrid smell."

Acrolein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the advisory was correct in suggesting that sub-ohm builds are overheating liquid, sub-ohm vapers would be constantly inhaling large amounts of acrolein. They aren't. A giant silky smooth cloud does not have significant quantities of Acrolein in it. A harsh hit from a 2.5 ohm coil with a choked wick (fairly common for the hit-or-miss quality of commercial coils) has significant enough quantities of acrolein to make most people want to vomit their lungs out.

If someone is inexperienced in coil building, it's very possible they could choke a wick or something else resulting in exactly what the advisory suggests. But the fact is, that has nothing to do with sub-ohm vaping, and non-subohm commercial equipment is just as likely to exhibit this, if not more likely.

Thoughts from the community?

I read where sub ohming can cause you to inhale microscopic metal particles from the coil wire. I dunno?

 

[Rapture]

I read where sub ohming can cause you to inhale microscopic metal particles from the coil wire. I dunno?

Remember we inhale microscopic particles of everything on a daily basis starting at birth.

 

[Bunnykiller]

interesting thread ... but I keep seeing references to water, water doesnt have a flash point, PG and VG does, therefore a high heat can change the chemical makeup of the original composition and create different compounds. The true question is what is that temp level and what compounds are being created once that temp is reached?

 

[Diy Mik]

Any facts yet?

No....

So its all speculation by "some guy" who knows nothing.

I dont know why i bother reading this stuff.

 

[Rapture]

Any facts yet?

No....

So its all speculation by "some guy" who knows nothing.

I dont know why i bother reading this stuff.

Only facts are probably Wikipedia staying that glyceral breaks down into acrolein when heated.

 

[granolaboy]

UncleChuck

THANK YOU!

I give the exact same explanation to people when they come up to me and try to tell me this stuff. I even demonstrate with my VW; Let them try it at 7w and at 15w and see...at 15w it tastes pretty horrible. Why would any vaper in their right mind do that??!!