Rebuilding your 510 Atomizer Step by Step - 801 & 901's too!

[Vaporer]

Congrats! That's the main reasons I did the tutorials was economy for those who can or learn and in the event of a ban, they can't stop you now.

Actually, there are a couple things to watch for using that lead method as it is a bare wire. The heavier wire will act as a heat sink keeping the ends cooler.(not really a problem). HV users may get it hot enough to melt the solder at the wire connection causing it to pop free in the cup from softening of the solder. If you did a tight twist or loop & squeeze of the nichrome around it, should be fine.

A problem might happen if the leads were to touch the the mesh on the bottom of the cup. Most 510's have a tube extending down on one side which pretty much prevents this. If it were an 801 or 901 they dont have the ceramic tube. They could be done that way as long as the mesh was pushed away from the bare leads and the leads covered with heat shrink or a toothpick of silicone put in the gap made around it.
This would prevent the mesh from shorting the battery.

All I can think of right off. Many old LED's leads will tarnish due to the silver coating for ease of soldering. I'm not familiar with any possible "bad" metals that might be in the leads. PG & VG aren't reactive to most metals and leads that heavy shouldn't get hot enough to release anything as far as I know.

Glad to hear of your success and thanks for letting me know!

 

[Vaporer]

connman,
I'll quote myself here.
"Remember, my way isn't the only way, but it does work. Some may have easier methods to do things. Thread them up and link them from here. If you can show it in a single post with a pic, put it here."

What you have done is exactly what I meant. Some may have other ideas or methods that work as well. Post them! This thread was made to help people and my way isn't the only way, it's just a way that does work, as does yours. Others good working methods are welcome here as well and appreciated. Keeping good data together is important.

One other thought as I reread your method. When connecting the wires to the connector leads, especially on the 510 since it has the extended insulation tube, make sure the center connector lead goes to the "tube" lead. Its the best protected. If the center connector lead were to be soldered to the non-tube coil lead, the possibility of a short circuit goes way up. If it shorted to the mesh in that configuration, everything would test fine, measure right, but when the voltage came on the lead touching the mesh would be the opposite of the battery connector. Thats a dead short on the battery. Please watch out for this. That is why I stated that with the 801 & 901 the leads should always be protected by heat shrink or mesh moved back some and silicone applied as an insulator in the gap you made.

I'll be posting more pics in the future of the 801 & 901. If you can get a clear pic showing your method, pls post it here. I can take the pic if you can't get it clear close up. Just PM me and send me one to shoot. I'll email you the pic back for your posting.

Thanks again for sharing your idea.

 

[Connman]

Hello Vaporer,
It does seem every atomizer I`ve torn apart is different. Strange and not one has had the holes in the mesh on the side except for the center air under the coil.

Ok as mentioned I`m here with the edit function and adding the picture.

First I just wanted to add the only reason I use this is if the wires are broken at the ceramic cup making them to short. That`s how I came up with this on my first one. Found LED legs will fit the holes in the ceramic cup. I didn`t have wire small enough for the hole. And I don`t like soldering on the center pin on the battery connector anyhow.

You will want to play and pick at the holes on the ceramic cup with a needle to get the legs to fit in them. I also make sure they fit and slide them in and out so it`s not hard to do with the coil already made.

In this first picture here in the link at photobucket. You will see the LED legs soldered to the nichrome 36 gauge wire. The positive side is sticking in the ceramic cup already that`s how I wrap all my coils so if I am using the wire attached to the center pin it wont need disconnected. I would also be using the original ground wire but for demo purposes and for a try I did the LED pin there as well.

Poor picture quality sorry.
Connman atomizer rebuild Picture38.jpg

Now here in this picture the coil has already been wrapped and the positive and negative LED pins inserted into the atomizer cup. After this step you make the J hook and attache your negative wire on the positive wire place a small section of heat shrink and then attach wire and cover solder point with the heat shrink

I will trim the LED pins down just leaving enough to grip and form a small J hook. Then skin the end of the battery connections wire enough to make a J hook. On the positive wire I slide a short heat shrink section on the wire . short just to cover the nipple on the ceramic cup and the solder point of where it meets the wire.

That`s 6 now with only one atomizer going to waste due to bad rubber gasket on the battery connection. Thank you a million for your threads Vaporer. I am one happy poster out here.

 

[Vaporer]

I was hard pressed deciding how to do the tutorial after the one on making the coil.
Many people ask for certain models, with detailed pics, and it just isn't quite that easy.
I , like you, found diff styles in the same model. They all take the same coil, but how many can there be? They keep changing some things , air feed holes and such. The early models didn't have the wick tucked under the bridge. Seems all later models now do. With HV it's a must in my book. The higher wattage drys the core out so quick and there is no refeed point except the mist. That would leave a person to take a puff running, then a couple puffs without the switch on giving it a chance to soak the core again. With auto batteries you'd have to unscrew the atty loose all the time. Way to much hassle. I have wicked both ends of the coil many times under the bridge. A lot depends on how you plan to draw/puff it.

It's just not possible to own all the models out there and with some differences in each one.........at least you can see whats going on, even though it may not look exactly like the pics. Associating the differences seems to be doing well.

I tried to write the tutorial in such a way, with links included, so a person that has never soldered before could successfully do this with a little practice. So for veterans used to soldering, working with electricity, a lot of this seems very simple. To someone that never has I needed to try to cover all the possibilities that may arise to help insure their success.
Not an easy thing to do I can honestly say. The more I wrote the more I thought abt "what if's". It had to be done in a way that explained what to do and in some instances why so it wouldn't be ignored. The comment I added in wasn't directed towards you personally at all. Just another thought to make people new to working with electricity and polarity aware of possible pitfalls.

I've received quite a few success PM's from people that never soldered before trying this. Some still have a question on a rare occasion, but I try to support my postings the best I can.
Anxious to see your pics!

 

[BuzzKill]

Vape YOU ROCK ! nice work
Buzz

 

[Umo]

Fascinating, thanks for posting this!

The higher wattage drys the core out so quick and there is no refeed point except the mist. That would leave a person to take a puff running, then a couple puffs without the switch on giving it a chance to soak the core again.

Hmm, I wonder if this is why my PV tends to puff better when its been sitting for a few minutes.

 

[jfdpl686]

Vaporer.. or anybody else... I can't even crack open the atty!
I've already broke 2... I simply can't open them (510) Any suggestions or methods to easily open them?

Thanks!

 

[Vaporer]

connman,
Just now seen the pic you posted. It didn't notify me. Guess it doesn't with an edit.
Great pic! ppl can now see the "tube" on one side of the 510 that helps prevent shorts. You wont see this on the 801 or 901's. The reason I said to make sure the mesh doesn't touch a bare lead. Enameled wire or insulated wire is more forgiving on them.
Just as a note, the top of the coil normally is even with the top of the cup.
That puts it in the main airflow position. it will work as shown though.
Only lost 1 out of 6! Wow......thats great, they rebuild much easier from now on since I don't reglue them.

Appreciate the support guys.

umo, I have no doubt that is the reason. You are looking at a lot of varying situations.
VG liquid is thicker than PG. So it wicks slower. 3.7v doesnt deplete the supply as fast as 5 or 6v. So, you're working on a balancing situation. Heating also thins all the eliquids.
If you are getting better hits after it sitting a bit, you might want to thin your liquid a bit. Each atty has its quirks too. To thin on an 801 and it floods like crazy. The same liquid will be fine on a 510 or 901. Another thing to watch for is the cart filler. Some feed better than others. I prefer the PTB with a vent tube.

jfdpl686,
I had the method I use in one of the threads. One thread was removed from the library, why I dont know. If you cant make the coil, why have this one there? They say it was never there, but it was. I did it as a series project.
There seem to be 2 types of glue used to hold the tube to the connector. Some soak in acetone to loosen the CA glue then start working it off. I boil a cup of water, toss them in for 10-15 min, take one out put it on a battery , slip in a drill bit that fits snugly in the atty top and wiggle it loose. There are pics in one of my threads with a better description.

 

[jfdpl686]

Thank you Vaporer... I'll try that way!

 

[Confed999]

Thanks so much Vaporer for the great tutorial... Currently I'm puffing away on my first rebuilt atty.

 

[Vaporer]

Confed999,
That's great! They just get easier from now on!
When you have a few dead ones, you can do the group method of making a few coils one night, and doing them by batch say 5 at a time when you have everything ready. Not trying to do it all in one night just to get one going.
I have 10 premade coils. I'll knock say 5 attys apart one evening. So I'm only spending abt 1/2 in an evening on any given day. Then one night...I have 5 done! All in that 1/2 hr. Seems easier to do to me.

Glad the instructions were presented in a way thats understandable.
You can save a lot of $ now, even make the resistance what you want for pennys.
If they do get banned.......well.....you wont be without.

Now, help someone else out, if you can or have the opportunity. Maybe a diff step method you found that's easier for you. My way works, but isn't the only way. Some find tricks, tools that are easier for them and that's great.
Feel free to share them here. Include clear pics with a description if you can.

Again......Congrats and thanks for the feedback.

 

[Confed999]

In a couple of tests, using nichrome wire, there is a rapid degridation in ohm rating of around 10%, give or take a percent. (i.e. A 2 ohm will become a 2.2 ohm) If you take this into account when forming your coils you'll burn a little hot for a couple of hours then it will be perfect.

 

[Vaporer]

As we discussed, this is due to the lower conductive oxide coating that forms from the initial exposure to air when heated. If the coating falls or is cleaned away and new oxide forms, the resistance of the wire does increase. There is an odd catch though. When this happens repeatedly the smooth wire is now "wavy" or has "dips" of higher resistance in it due to the circular surface area being reduced.
The higher resistance represents the whole wire resistance, but only a portion if the wire is read in segments. The "fuller" lower resistance areas are actually getting hotter than the thinner areas. Overall, heat is still reduced but its something that can't be avoided under normal vaping conditions. In a vacuum or inert gas.........yes.

Nichrome 60 is 16% Chrome, 24% Iron & 60% Nickle while Nichrome 80 is 20% chrome & 80% Nickle. It appears Nichrome 80 would be a better choice. Iron quickly oxidizes to Iron Oxide(rust) especially in the presence of moisture.

Before anyone asks, I have no idea of which is used in factory atomizers. My guess is the cheapest.

 

[Scubabatdan]

As we discussed, this is due to the lower conductive oxide coating that forms from the initial exposure to air when heated. If the coating falls or is cleaned away and new oxide forms, the resistance of the wire does increase. There is an odd catch though. When this happens repeatedly the smooth wire is now "wavy" or has "dips" of higher resistance in it due to the circular surface area being reduced.
The higher resistance represents the whole wire resistance, but only a portion if the wire is read in segments. The "fuller" lower resistance areas are actually getting hotter than the thinner areas. Overall, heat is still reduced but its something that can't be avoided under normal vaping conditions. In a vacuum or inert gas.........yes.

Nichrome 60 is 16% Chrome, 24% Iron & 60% Nickle while Nichrome 80 is 20% chrome & 80% Nickle. It appears Nichrome 80 would be a better choice. Iron quickly oxidizes to Iron Oxide(rust) especially in the presence of moisture.

Before anyone asks, I have no idea of which is used in factory atomizers. My guess is the cheapest.

80/20 wire prices and ohms values
PnJ Resources, LLC : Nichrome 80
Dan

 

[jimpma]

I would like to ask a question. Using, say #30 NiChrome wire, given a certain length of wire, coil diam and voltage, will the coil burn "hotter" if the length is increased? Specifically I have made coils from #30 wire, always coiled at .093 diam, and using 3.7V 18650 cell for my custom attys. I find a length of 2.50" 'fires' quite well, but the throat hit is just a bit harsh, and wonder if anyone can suggest the proper direction to adjust the length of the wire to burn just a bit cooler?

Once I get it perfected, I will post pics of my attys, and the PVs I make from exotic hardwoods. Box mods are ok, they work well, but plastic boxes leave a bit to be desired aesthetically imho. Ideally, what I would like to create are PVs that are beautiful to view and touch, have the capacity to be used heavily all day (at least) with no filling or other maintenance, have the proper combination of vapor and throat hit, allow the full taste of the e-juice, and will last for years. Just need to get that throat hit a bit smoother!

Thanks for any help from the experts I have followed in this thread for months now. Jim

 

[Vaporer]

The longer the wire the cooler it will be as long as the gage remains the same.
30ga Nichrome wire is 6.75 ohms/ft or 0.5625 ohms per/in.
2.5 inches would be 1.4 ohms. 3.0 inches would be 1.6875 ohms.
Run those numbers through the calculator:
Ohm's Law Calculator

Using 3.7v with 1.40625 ohms(2.5in) results in 9.77857 watts of heat produced.
Using 3.7v with 1.6875 ohms(3.0in) results in 8.11259 watts of heat produced.

Adding another 0.5in of 30ga wire for a total length of 3" reduces the heat produced by 1.66598 watts.
So, you are looking at about 17% cooler.

 

[jimpma]

Vaporer, thank you for the response. That is exactly what I wanted defined. May I ask one more? Based on the same parameters, how much will that effect battery life? Even as just a rough guess. I assume (from past trials) that there will be a longer period before the wire reaches a high enough temp to vaporize the ejuice. Thanks again, I'm off to cut some wire @ 3"

 

[Vaporer]

The longer wire will draw less current(amps).
It shows that on the calculator too.
Just plug in 2 of the values and you'll see the result.
You have to clear them for a new calculation.
You can leave one value in like the 3.7v .

Since your original is 1.4ohms, and 3" 1.6ohms, the battery you are using , you probably won't notice any difference in warm up time, but the battery will sure last longer.
Overall that is still a hot atty.
About a yr ago 3.2-3.4 ohms was the standard and then 510 were showing up at 2.3ohms.

Your 1.4ohm is drawing 2.64A and if you go to 1.68ohms the current will be 2.20A.
Almost .5A less on the battery load.
You could go to 3ohms and not notice a "delay" on heating up, but you will notice a drop off in the "hit" due to less heat. 3ohms using 30ga wire is gonna be pretty long.
Tough to get all that wire in a standard atty without it deforming to heat and shorting out. The thermal paste Dan is using could solve that issue if you ran into it though I'm pretty sure with a thin coat wiped away so the ceramic acted as a spacer between the coils, but not covering them. That will suppress the wick if you are using that method inside the coil.

That calculator is a good thing to bookmark. Also a site with the commonly used wire sizes. Nichrome Wire
Just divide the ohms per foot by 12 and you have the ohms per inch of wire. Then its an easy go with the calculator for abt any combination your want to try.

Hope to see some pics and good luck with your project!

 

[jimpma]

Vaporer, thanks again! I have downloaded Wiretron to my desktop. It has all the calculations as well. As far as fitting the coils into the atty, that is not a problem. I build my own using thin-wall brass tubes. I should take some pics to show you what I have been successful with. for the 'cups' I use J-B Hi-Temp stick, formed around the leads in a 1/2" or 5/8" tube.

I don't know if anyone else has tried this, but I run my wicks through the coils as usual, and then use lengths of silica braided rope to surround the whole package. I generally leave about 1/2" above the wick and fill it lightly with the silica. On top of that I use a piece of standard polyfill, and then seal a stem into the top end of the atty tube. This gives me a sealed atty with a very large reservoir that is fully exposed to the coils. I use an air-feed tube 3/32" down the inside to direct my flow to the coil. Even totally submerged in ejuice it still vaporizes.

I will take a pic or two this evening, and figure out how to post them so you can see it better.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[Vaporer]

I used and really liked the Wiretron program yrs ago, my XP 64bit server software doesn't like it. Even forcing mode switching.....odd....still, it doesn't work for me now so I tend to find resources easy to use and access for myself and others and give examples.

I have used the extended wick to reservoir method somewhat like what you describe in rebuilding the disposable ecigs.

I do have a concern with your choice of materials. They might be fine, but I have no way to prove it by a defined chemical analysis.
The brass tubing contains a lot of copper. Moisture will usually result in a green copper salt forming. Of course, that would leave a person to believe that the copper is present before its visible in the pooling and I doubt vaporizing copper and inhaling it is safe long term. I have no proof it's actually there but thin wall SS tubing is available and would be a much safer choice IMO. Cartomizers use a brass connector, but the exposed surface inside that contacts the eliquid is coated, maybe with nickle? They felt the need to not leave the brass exposed and eliquid is in constant contact with it. This throws up a flag to me.

JB Weld products are normally a metal filled epoxy resin. Hard as a rock when cured for sure, but not normally seen used in a consumable product. Does eliquid & heat break it down or possibly leach anything from the resin? I can't say, but I'd prefer to see something used that at least appears to be safer. The Theermeze(sp) ceramic stuff Dan found seems to fit the bill.

I'm not trying to "come down" on you at all. Please don't think that. I commend your efforts, ingenuity and attempts to make an atomizer. It truly is not as simple as many think.
I wish we had someone with access to lab equipment to test for "unwanteds" in cases just like this. Even my own at times!
The manufacturers felt the need to coat the brass for a reason (IMO) and they normally do nothing needed that adds cost. So, I see this as an indicator just as I see atomizer tubes made from SS, not brass or aluminum which would be cheaper.

I don't mean this post to be belittling in any way shape or form. I may not be here forever and I don't claim to have or know all the answers. I cannot possibly answer everyones questions either. I just hope others will step up and present the merits/concerns of materials used or suggested, without argument, to help each other be safe.

It would be great to have a certified chemist analyze, even the concerns I stated above, but maybe they do read here but fear "putting it on the line" due to liability issues. Might be even their resources can only take it so far, but not in their comfort zone for a definitive answer they are comfortable with.

Bottom line, I'd try to use the same material the manufactures do. It will cost a little more and the material sources are out there.