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Well then it seems to me the biggest danger is likely to be over-charge. Over-discharge would result in a shorter battery life, short circuit would likely show up in first use of the PV and over-heating should be prevented by atomizer auto shut-off.
I tend to agree with your assessment, Gary.
"Likely" is something I have a problem with though. We have to remain cognizant that the batteries and chargers we get from China have almost no QC whatsoever. To depend on that tiny PCB on the bottom of our batteries as a safety valve is fool-hardy, IMHO. You've been around for a good long time, as I have -- we've had more than our share of defective PV related stuff -- including those very same PCBs that have rendered brand new batteries inoperative from the onset.
I'm not saying that you're not vigilant of battery usage. But, I do have trust issues with the level of protection in these batteries and chargers actually working as intended with regard to Lighthound's definition and your (and my) take from the theory of it. IOW, it's still cheap crap.
"Likely" is something I have a problem with though. We have to remain cognizant that the batteries and chargers we get from China have almost no QC whatsoever. To depend on that tiny PCB on the bottom of our batteries as a safety valve is fool-hardy, IMHO. You've been around for a good long time, as I have -- we've had more than our share of defective PV related stuff -- including those very same PCBs that have rendered brand new batteries inoperative from the onset.
I'm not saying that you're not vigilant of battery usage. But, I do have trust issues with the level of protection in these batteries and chargers actually working as intended with regard to Lighthound's definition and your (and my) take from the theory of it. IOW, it's still cheap crap.
No, I'm not asking for a guarantee. I'm asking for correct information with which I can make an educated decision. I would have no problem if the battery one, for example, started and ended with the caveat that no battery (even NiMH) is 100% safe and it is important to treat them with respect but here is information about them. Then list all the different factors with the definition, the pros and the cons....and how much are you willing to pay for others to take the liability or provide "expert" advice? And how much flexibility are you willing to forego?
You did notice that ECF is unwilling to make recommendations, post the approved and unapproved list(s), or even be associated with the "committee" that rules on rejects/approves products? It's because of the liability issues. Most (all?) of the vendors here are extremely small operations. One or two or a very few people with a garage business. Many of them have day jobs. They can't come close to affording liability insurance much less extensive product testing, failure testing, or things like UL certifications. If you want "safe with guarantees" your options may only be the US major manufacturers of e-cig hardware -- of which there are none? I'm not sure how a liability claim against a company like Joye would go either.
Then are you willing to pay 5x to 10x for a mod? Most consumer products of this sort have a at least a 4x markup? (when sold in massive volumes). It's because of the above. I think right now the industry is in the innovator "hobby" stage.
You're asking for someone to give you a guarantee for what's absolutely safe and what's not. I think I can do that for you right now (although I'm not an expert). NONE of the mods are absolutely safe. As far as I know none of them have gone through any of the standard certifications with respect to this. As far as I know NONE of the Joye, etc. products have either? The list you're asking for is empty. The informational articles you're asking for are readily available and have been pointed to many times. Battery University, Electropaedia, etc. etc. You want someone to summarize it for you and say "buy this exactly". It depends on the whole solution, the mod, how you use it, etc, etc. We already know some or all of those components haven't been certified as "safe" to the degree you're asking for. As soon as someone proclaims themself an "expert" and "approves" particular products as safe or not, they may be opening themselves to liability issues (I am also not a lawyer). I'd say don't do it or educate yourself to the degree that you feel comfortable that you understand what the risks are and the level of risk you're willing to take. What's perfectly acceptable for one person may be totally unacceptable for another. If you don't want to make the effort and don't feel comfortable then don't do it. I'm not sure it's right to ask someone else to assume that responsibility for you.
On one hand everybody is up in arms about the FDA trying to regulate the industry and on the other hand you're pretty much asking for exactly that.
Example:
Protected Batteries
Definition: This applies only to li-ion batteries. Because they are xxx than LiFEPO4 and LiMN batteries, xxx is built into the battery.
Pros: Less likely to xxx than unprotected batteries. More likely to xxx.
Cons: Lower mAh than an unprotected battery of the same size. A little more expensive than unprotected batteries. Usually one or two mm larger than the stated size of the battery. May not fit in all devices.
There's no guarantee in that at all but it would give people the explanation of why protected li-ion batteries are safer (not safe, safer) than unprotected ones. If someone chose to use unprotected ones, it would be an informed choice.
ETA: Have you ever met a lawyer who does product liability cases? They unplug just about every appliance except the refrigerator when they leave the house. Most toasters don't blow up or cause electrical fires -- but they can.
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Hence my solution for mitigating the most likely dangerous scenario by using a countdown timer to insure against over-charging and putting the risk percentages in your favor.
I use a meter to double check my batts after charging too just as a quick precaution. Not hard to use and they are cheap enough. If the batt is too high, I set it aside and let it drain a bit or toss it if it doesn't work correctly.
He is just pointing out areas at this time that need to be discussed. That does not mean that a ban of mods has been decided upon. He states that there are safety issues he would like to see better addressed.
Several mods have blown up lately. Some of these mods contained batteries that the user KNEW were unprotected. But what about the mods where the user THOUGHT they were protected?
Personally, I think anyone with a mod in their mouth has already DONE a lot of self-education. None of us have taken classes on ecigs. I don't even know anyone else who uses an ecig. And without that self-education, I'm sure I would long ago have given up on a 510 straight out of the box with all the problems that I encountered.
All information I have on using an ecig came from this forum. Obviously, I have decided that I would rather use protected batteries than non-protected batteries, based on having read that they tend to be less likely to have a problem.
Even though I have read up on what to do if I have a problem, I would rather not have the problem if it can be avoided.
If LiFePo4 or high drain LiMN batteries that don't contain PCBs are determined to be the safest bet, I will surely spend the money to replace my batteries with them.
I would just like someone (hopefully someone, as Po stated, with the experience and knowledge of batteries) to put the info out there for me to find - batteries that are as safe as possible and how to keep them safe, where to get them, and what to do if they fail.
You're right in that what happens to the users of ecigs today will affect what is available tomorrow, one way or another, but not just on ECF.
And I believe Jeff will be dissecting D's chuck when he gets it, trying to figure out a way to make it even safer if a failure occurs. He doesn't need any regulations in place that force him to try to provide a safer product.
Debbie
That is the reason that I will continue to purchase Chucks. The manufacturer has the common sense to examine the problem, decide upon better methods if needed and has the pride in his product and care for his customers to do what he can to make it better. I don't know him but my opinion is that I can trust his opinion which is enough for me.
DanteInferno Well said. That what it comes down to trust. Do you trust the supplier enough to know he has made the mod as safe as he can? Do you trust the batteries you have to order? If the answer to both questions is yes order and Vape on. If the answer is no then don't order or don't vape at all. Simple isn't, no intervention is need to save people who either A. Won't take the time to learn anything or B. Are too stupid to live anyway. Not that I believe this is the case here this is C. A mistake made by the OP that will not be repeated.
Well, personally when I read the post about the exploding Chuck, my first thought was, "I hope he is alright." My second was, "What do I need to do to make sure I don't do the same thing." And, my third was, "I wonder if this will be the straw that brings the whole vaping experience to the next level."
It was bound to happen that someone would get injured, OD on nicotine, develop sores from inhaling melted plastic tips, etc. And, someone is going to try to sue someone over it at some point. There are no "experts". No battery company has made extensive tests with e-cig devices at different configurations to determine exactly what will happen nor has anyone conducted the long term effects of vaping liquid nicotine much less the carts that melt, the burning of cartomizer filler, etc. This industry is too new and the best that can be done is people relating their experiences and sharing information. You have to make the best decision you can based upon the information you have. ECF needs to determine if they wish to be a part of that process or if other means would serve them better. Those with the courage to brave the risks will suffer the consequences and will lead the industry to new levels.
I started vaping because I felt it might be something to help me quit smoking. So far, so good but I still want to quit smoking, and I don't think vaping is healthy either. Maybe healthier but your still inhaling things into your lungs so it can't be healthier than doing neither. I personally didn't care for patches, drugs or other smoking cessation devices. So, I figured I would give vaping a try and then started to educate myself.
When I was first starting to smoke analogs, I thought the Zippo lighters were too cool. So, I got one and not knowing better I overfilled it. The fluid leaked out and got on my jeans and low and behold a cinder fell off a analog and caught my pants on fire. It burned the crap out of me and the other people teased me mercilessly for being so stupid. So, I went to my grandfather and had him show me how to fill and maintain the zippo properly or his opinion of how to do it safely. The next week, one of the people making fun of me spilled lighter fluid on his shirt sleeve while refilling his zippo. He then wiped the sweat off his forehead with that sleeve. When he went to light the zippo, it flamed high like they will do and caught his sleeve on fire which went on to ignite his face. Scarred him quite badly before he could get the flames out.
Moral of the story is that we all have made mistakes and we will again. I personally don't think this OP should be persecuted for having the fortitude to share his experience and I hope that all of those that flame him remember that it can happen to them as well. If the ECF decides they want to do their thing, whatever that may be, so be it. Its their site and their right. I just hope that respectable suppliers continue to grow and learn so that I can fulfill my goal of quitting and also so others can benefit from the experience.
I have done my research. I have found suppliers I feel can be trusted to provide the best product they can and I am pleased with the results. I have returned mods that didn't seem safe, I have had passthroughs short out and one to melt. I have discarded new batteries and atomizers that didn't act like I thought they should. If my e-cig blows up in my face tomorrow, I have done what I can and I will stand behind the decisions I made even if it was what some think was a stupid mistake.
I thank those that have had these issues for having the courage to share their experiences and I am glad they are all okay. For those that are selfish and flame them for being human and honest, they can kiss my <insert explicative here> as I don't really value their opinion and just skip over their posts.
It was bound to happen that someone would get injured, OD on nicotine, develop sores from inhaling melted plastic tips, etc. And, someone is going to try to sue someone over it at some point. There are no "experts". No battery company has made extensive tests with e-cig devices at different configurations to determine exactly what will happen nor has anyone conducted the long term effects of vaping liquid nicotine much less the carts that melt, the burning of cartomizer filler, etc. This industry is too new and the best that can be done is people relating their experiences and sharing information. You have to make the best decision you can based upon the information you have. ECF needs to determine if they wish to be a part of that process or if other means would serve them better. Those with the courage to brave the risks will suffer the consequences and will lead the industry to new levels.
I started vaping because I felt it might be something to help me quit smoking. So far, so good but I still want to quit smoking, and I don't think vaping is healthy either. Maybe healthier but your still inhaling things into your lungs so it can't be healthier than doing neither. I personally didn't care for patches, drugs or other smoking cessation devices. So, I figured I would give vaping a try and then started to educate myself.
When I was first starting to smoke analogs, I thought the Zippo lighters were too cool. So, I got one and not knowing better I overfilled it. The fluid leaked out and got on my jeans and low and behold a cinder fell off a analog and caught my pants on fire. It burned the crap out of me and the other people teased me mercilessly for being so stupid. So, I went to my grandfather and had him show me how to fill and maintain the zippo properly or his opinion of how to do it safely. The next week, one of the people making fun of me spilled lighter fluid on his shirt sleeve while refilling his zippo. He then wiped the sweat off his forehead with that sleeve. When he went to light the zippo, it flamed high like they will do and caught his sleeve on fire which went on to ignite his face. Scarred him quite badly before he could get the flames out.
Moral of the story is that we all have made mistakes and we will again. I personally don't think this OP should be persecuted for having the fortitude to share his experience and I hope that all of those that flame him remember that it can happen to them as well. If the ECF decides they want to do their thing, whatever that may be, so be it. Its their site and their right. I just hope that respectable suppliers continue to grow and learn so that I can fulfill my goal of quitting and also so others can benefit from the experience.
I have done my research. I have found suppliers I feel can be trusted to provide the best product they can and I am pleased with the results. I have returned mods that didn't seem safe, I have had passthroughs short out and one to melt. I have discarded new batteries and atomizers that didn't act like I thought they should. If my e-cig blows up in my face tomorrow, I have done what I can and I will stand behind the decisions I made even if it was what some think was a stupid mistake.
I thank those that have had these issues for having the courage to share their experiences and I am glad they are all okay. For those that are selfish and flame them for being human and honest, they can kiss my <insert explicative here> as I don't really value their opinion and just skip over their posts.
I'll post this just because it might make someone think, oh hey that happened to me when mine blew up!
I use a GGSlim, and I wanted to take out the little battery shake from the 10440 batteries being a tad short. Well I used a magnet. When I screwed the carto down, (looking now, I see the + post to the center gets pushed to the side) and it slid the magnet to the wall. Essentially creating a short. After only a few seconds and the vapor being minimal, the Slim started getting very hot. I quickly unscrewed and removed the battery and put it in a metal pan. If I hadn't noticed it (which could have happened if I had installed the battery and put it down before I cleaned up) and thank god I hadn't.
So has anyone have batteries explode or blow been using magnets to get that extra bit of room?
I use a GGSlim, and I wanted to take out the little battery shake from the 10440 batteries being a tad short. Well I used a magnet. When I screwed the carto down, (looking now, I see the + post to the center gets pushed to the side) and it slid the magnet to the wall. Essentially creating a short. After only a few seconds and the vapor being minimal, the Slim started getting very hot. I quickly unscrewed and removed the battery and put it in a metal pan. If I hadn't noticed it (which could have happened if I had installed the battery and put it down before I cleaned up) and thank god I hadn't.
So has anyone have batteries explode or blow been using magnets to get that extra bit of room?
I am glad my experience has prompted some to post their valuable information on this thread.
The batteries in question in my incident may not have even been rechargeable--probably weren't. However, they did not arrive in any sort of packaging describing exactly what they were. They arrived wrapped in stiff shrink plastic in bundles of two, and that is it. All the other batteries I have ordered were shipped in exactly this fashion. If there was any kind of warning or description on the battery itself I have no idea, as I could read the brand but little else. I have eye damage in my right eye from a fight I was in (boxing in college) which makes reading fine print problematic, and the small print on batteries next to impossible. The batteries I currently have are all different, solid colors, and so are easy to differentiate. They are also exactly what I ordered, which these were not.
Not only that, they didn't work when I got them, exactly like every other battery I have ordered. So I put them on a charger. In every other instance of my device not working, it was either a dead atomizer or a dead battery. And from experience, the cure for a dead battery is to charge it--this does not include supermarket big brand batteries, as those I dispose of when discharged. They also work right away out of the package.
It wasn't until someone on this thread pointed out that such may have been the issue that it even occurred to me that the batteries may not have been rechargeable. A stupid mistake to be sure, but one that was shockingly easy to make.
I did not notice the device getting warm at all before the explosion, it wasn't until the second "reaction" or whatever was going on that heat was involved, and luckily the device was on the floor when that took place.
I'd also note that when I first got my 18350s three of them would not hold a charge, and I disposed of them--they are the blue ones from MadVapes. Even with nominally safe batteries there is a failure rate. I remember reading on another thread when studying up on batteries that another user always over-ordered, as he expected "x" number to be defective and that in ordering more than needed he was assured of having what he needed to work with.
I would add that had the Chuck not been built as robustly as it is, the situation would have been much, much worse. I would consider the device "safe" under proper usage without question, and if after Jeff examines the device and comes up with some features to improve it further that is even better.
The batteries in question in my incident may not have even been rechargeable--probably weren't. However, they did not arrive in any sort of packaging describing exactly what they were. They arrived wrapped in stiff shrink plastic in bundles of two, and that is it. All the other batteries I have ordered were shipped in exactly this fashion. If there was any kind of warning or description on the battery itself I have no idea, as I could read the brand but little else. I have eye damage in my right eye from a fight I was in (boxing in college) which makes reading fine print problematic, and the small print on batteries next to impossible. The batteries I currently have are all different, solid colors, and so are easy to differentiate. They are also exactly what I ordered, which these were not.
Not only that, they didn't work when I got them, exactly like every other battery I have ordered. So I put them on a charger. In every other instance of my device not working, it was either a dead atomizer or a dead battery. And from experience, the cure for a dead battery is to charge it--this does not include supermarket big brand batteries, as those I dispose of when discharged. They also work right away out of the package.
It wasn't until someone on this thread pointed out that such may have been the issue that it even occurred to me that the batteries may not have been rechargeable. A stupid mistake to be sure, but one that was shockingly easy to make.
I did not notice the device getting warm at all before the explosion, it wasn't until the second "reaction" or whatever was going on that heat was involved, and luckily the device was on the floor when that took place.
I'd also note that when I first got my 18350s three of them would not hold a charge, and I disposed of them--they are the blue ones from MadVapes. Even with nominally safe batteries there is a failure rate. I remember reading on another thread when studying up on batteries that another user always over-ordered, as he expected "x" number to be defective and that in ordering more than needed he was assured of having what he needed to work with.
I would add that had the Chuck not been built as robustly as it is, the situation would have been much, much worse. I would consider the device "safe" under proper usage without question, and if after Jeff examines the device and comes up with some features to improve it further that is even better.
Debbie was asking for a guarantee. You're asking for someone to quote/summarize information that is readily available and has been pointed to a lot and is written in layman's terms. Battery University, Electropaedia, etc. etc. You can't summarize it much more than that.Poeia said:
I think what you're missing is that it's more than just the battery and maybe that could be addressed here...maybe not. Your device and how you use it are also critical parts of the system. As much as you would like it simplified to be able to address each component independently, it's just not the case. 3.7v, 6v, which atomizer you use with each of the above, 1 battery, 2 battery, everything factors into the effect on each component. Vendors want/have to make their products as versatile as possible. They also can't afford to sell complete solutions. They'd go out of business. Take the batteries for example. There is no way an extremely low volume vendor can compete with deal extreme or battery junction, etc. They'd have to sell batteries at twice the cost. If they design a "mod" to be "safe" it would have to be with this particular battery, with this particular atomizer using this particular charger, ... and they'd sell 1/10th of the units they are now to people looking for that specific solution at 2x or 3x the current price.
Debbie said "... people who THOUGHT they were using protected batteries that weren't protected ...". Now you need a sealed unit with non-replaceable batteries that only accepts the charger sold with the unit. You see where this is going right? You need to wait until these are available in K-Mart. Right now you either need to educate yourself or trust in someone else's recommendation. You WILL NOT get that recommendation made for the general user from ECF or any credentialed "experts" due to the liability issues. I actually think the collective opinions and experiences of the forum are currently working quite well in that respect. If you want to be on the leading edge then YOU need to educate yourself -- maybe an additional degree or two. Otherwise, refrain from running to get the latest mod or the latest and greatest battery, etc. Give them a year or so of soak time and use by hundreds of "early adoptors" and see what works out.
If the "batt is too high" then there is a problem and you should fix it.DanteInferno said:
(well said on your subsequent post titled "It is what it is")
ummm, errr, .... I think we could solve that if batteries were ONLY available from government stores and users were required to get licensed for battery use?Debbie said:
Apparently not enough?Debbie said:
Ok, so you're good to go?Debbie said:
I think that's a pretty popular feeling. Above you said you read enough for some problem avoidance (you'd *rather* use protected batteries -- why only "rather"?)Debbie said:
See above for why you can't take this out of the context of the complete application.Debbie said:
Buy your stuff from K-Mart.Debbie said:
Yes, there is a lot of information here at ECF.
Yes, most of us have read tons of it. Yes, I have read Battery University.
Yes, I am still confused because so much of the information contradicts other information I found in the same places.
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You have a degree, you know that abstracting the problem won't change it
. You would like someone to sort the good information from the bad? Who would you like to take on this responsibility for you and what if someone comes up with a different set? In the end, I think you're going to want someone to explain "why". but you're capable of that yourself. If you're looking for someone to hold accountable (which is what it boils down to) I don't think that's going to happen in the immediate future.
The only guarantee I'm looking for is a guarantee that the 'protected' batteries that I purchase are really 'protected' batteries. Not unreasonable.
Debbie
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Ok, Quick, I'm done. I've checked your most recent posts and see that you really love threads where there is any disagreement. I now know what I'm dealing with. I'll stop wasting my time.
I had really thought you had misunderstood my posts. That was the only reason I persisted.
Debbie
I had really thought you had misunderstood my posts. That was the only reason I persisted.
Debbie
Honestly in case you didn't know this if they're Lion batteries and being sold as protected not only should they say it on the battery themselves...you can see the protection by visually looking at the battery...protected ones with a PCB have kind of a ridge on the negative end ....look at the pictures of any of the protected batteries at madvapes or lighthound for example...you can visually see the protection board...also by the measurements... a 16340 battery (otherwise known as a CR123 size) the battery model # is it's measurements so in this example 16mm in diameter and 34mm in length (the 0 at the end is just a placeholder) so a 16340... protected batteries because of the PCB are 2 mm longer usually so it'd come in at 16mm diameter by 36mm in length...
So guarantee it with your own due vigilence...you should be linspecting your batteries before you use them anyway to make sure the wrapper/label isn't torn or nicked or split at the minimum at least anyway..so you should be able to see the PCB and if theres any doubt still a quick measurement with a metric ruler should help verify the presence of the PCB as well...Outside of that, buy batteries only from reputable dealers with a good reputation...unfortunately that's the best guarantee you're going to get...
I guess I did misunderstand your posts. I got the impression that you thought if someone else told you which batteries were absolutely protected that would answer all your safety concerns.
So all 'protected' batteries should state right on the battery that they are 'protected'. If not stated, we can assume they are not.
In that case, I think I will get rid of the batteries that were sold to me by a mod vendor. They state only 'UltraFire ICR123A 880mAh 3.7v' - nothing about 'protected' on them.
Also have others which state 'Tenergy RCR123A 3.0v Rechargeable Li-ion'. They do not state 'protected' on them either.
I guess it's time to buy new batteries if I'm looking for the safest batteries out there.
However, it does look like there is a disc on the bottom of both sets of these batteries, as though there is a PCB on there.
That is why it is so confusing to the non-battery expert. I read on the forum that protected batteries are the 'safest' to use (yes, yes, I understand that even protected batteries can have accidents). Yet can't seem to get batteries that actually state 'protected' right on the battery. Many don't even state 'rechargeable'.
I think I'll just order the ones Doots suggested. They at least state (in the pic) that they're 'Protection Built-in; Rechargeable' right on the battery.
Thanks, Drozd and Doots, now I have a definitive starting point. The ones I have just may or may not be protected. I'd rather know for sure.
Debbie
In that case, I think I will get rid of the batteries that were sold to me by a mod vendor. They state only 'UltraFire ICR123A 880mAh 3.7v' - nothing about 'protected' on them.
Also have others which state 'Tenergy RCR123A 3.0v Rechargeable Li-ion'. They do not state 'protected' on them either.
I guess it's time to buy new batteries if I'm looking for the safest batteries out there.
However, it does look like there is a disc on the bottom of both sets of these batteries, as though there is a PCB on there.
That is why it is so confusing to the non-battery expert. I read on the forum that protected batteries are the 'safest' to use (yes, yes, I understand that even protected batteries can have accidents). Yet can't seem to get batteries that actually state 'protected' right on the battery. Many don't even state 'rechargeable'.
I think I'll just order the ones Doots suggested. They at least state (in the pic) that they're 'Protection Built-in; Rechargeable' right on the battery.
Thanks, Drozd and Doots, now I have a definitive starting point. The ones I have just may or may not be protected. I'd rather know for sure.
Debbie
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