Do you consider Philip morris IQOS smoking or vaping?

[evan le'garde]

I would imagine those in the think tank at Philip Morris consider it to be both. Though it's probably more about going green and saving paper. I expect that point came up during the development of iqos. So i guess they think it's all good. Something like IQOS would have been great if it had been made available years before e cigarettes were. Too little too late though. So really, if i had to think about IQOS my only conclusion would be to call it plagiarism. Not officially plagiarism, but a kind of piss taking plagiarism if that makes sense.


I personally have never given it any thought before now.

 

[Baditude]

Ingredient list for IQOS vs e-cigarette:

iQOS may not be as harm-free as claimed, study finds | Health Central

In high-stakes votes, FDA advisors say evidence doesn't back Philip Morris' claims

 

[Rossum]

When I used to burn tobacco, it turned into ash. What's labelled "Burned Tobacco" there doesn't look like ash to me.

Ingredient list for IQOS vs e-cigarette:

That's totally misleading because each flavoring can have dozens of ingredients, and most flavored vapes use a number of different flavorings. So if one were to cite all the ingredients that are all lumped together as "flavoring" on the right side, length of that list would likely resemble the list on the left.

Look, I get it: Lotta people here frown on IQOS because vaping worked well for them. But vaping doesn't work for everyone, and us dissing IQOS is not really any different than the cold turkey crowd dissing vaping; they also perceive us as "still smoking".

 

[ENAUD]

When I used to burn tobacco, it turned into ash. What's labelled "Burned Tobacco" there doesn't look like ash to me.

That's totally misleading because each flavoring can have dozens of ingredients, and most flavored vapes use a number of different flavorings. So if one were to cite all the ingredients that are all lumped together as "flavoring" on the right side, length of that list would likely resemble the list on the left.

Look, I get it: Lotta people here frown on IQOS because vaping worked well for them. But vaping doesn't work for everyone, and us dissing IQOS is not really any different than the cold turkey crowd dissing vaping; they also perceive us as "still smoking".

I had the exact same thoughts, especially regarding the "flavors"...we have no idea how many different chemicals are involved in producing artificial flavors. And those are generally regarded as safe for consumption, the same cannot be absolutely determined for inhalation in the long run...

IQOS, if I hadn't found vaping first, it might have been a contender for me for harm reduction. water under the dam now. Still view my venture into vaping as being a human guinea pig in a huge experiment. and still not smoking after 6-1/2 years.

 

[ScottP]

That's totally misleading because each flavoring can have dozens of ingredients, and most flavored vapes use a number of different flavorings. So if one were to cite all the ingredients that are all lumped together as "flavoring" on the right side, length of that list would likely resemble the list on the left.

Yes if the flavors were broken down the list would be longer, but anywhere close to the iQOS list? Come on, be real. If there were 100 different flavors in the same bottle the list would still be WAY shorter.

While I can't read the list from that image,what I have read indicates that it still contains most if not all of the same ingredients that make smoking so bad. Add to that the more reports I read on it (since my last post in this thread) it turns out it contains them in the SAME QUANTITY as smoking.

Look I am not going to tell someone not to use an iQoS, but even from PM's own data they are not any safer than smoking. I will suggest that anyone contemplating using one should research it, look at the data and then make the choice. Don't just read marketing hype. In the end it's your choice, use it or don't. It's not going to save me or kill me either way.

 

[Rossum]

Yes if the flavors were broken down the list would be longer, but anywhere close to the iQOS list? Come on, be real. If there were 100 different flavors in the same bottle the list would still be WAY shorter.

A typical artificial strawberry flavor contains the following ingredients:

• amyl acetate,
• amyl butyrate,
• amyl valerate,
• anethol,
• anisyl formate,
• benzyl acetate,
• benzyl isobutyrate,
• butyric acid,
• cinnamyl isobutyrate,
• cinnamyl valerate,
• cognac essential oil,
• diacetyl,
• dipropyl ketone,
• ethyl acetate,
• ethyl amyl ketone,
• ethyl butyrate,
• ethyl cinnamate,
• ethyl heptanoate,
• ethyl heptylate,
• ethyl lactate,
• ethyl methylphenylglycidate,
• ethyl nitrate,
• ethyl propionate,
• ethyl valerate,
• heliotropin,
• hydroxyphenyl-2-butanone (10 percent solution in alcohol),
• a-ionone,
• isobutyl anthranilate,
• isobutyl butyrate,
• lemon essential oil,
• maltol,
• 4-methylacetophenone,
• methyl anthranilate,
• methyl benzoate,
• methyl cinnamate,
• methyl heptine carbonate,
• methyl naphthyl ketone,
• methyl salicylate,
• mint essential oil,
• neroli essential oil,
• nerolin,
• neryl isobutyrate,
• orris butter,
• phenethyl alcohol,
• rose,
• rum ether,
• g-undecalactone,
• vanillin,

even from PM's own data they are not any safer than smoking.

Huh? The filed an MRTP application with the FDA. That means they have reams of data indicating they're safer.

Dr. Farsalinos has also done some independent testing and agrees. Not quite as good as vaping, but certainly much better than smoking.

 

[SleeZy]

I'd consider it still smoking tbh.

Heck even snus is a better alternative. Which is also something i've learned recently is finally getting a breakthrough in the US.
In sweden we've known this for ages, which is also a reason why our terms to even join EU was to get to keep our snus, which eu wanted to ban way back then.

Check this celebratory clip out for example:


This guy is amercian which is also a great reviewer and has done wonders for the US part when i comes to this area.
If this interests you i recommend to check out his backstory, very interesting stuff. I also learned via this guy that what US calls/called snus isn't realy snus, it's something entirely else.

But yea reason why i mention it, is due it's a very effective way of quitting smoking in a safer way, if vaping wouln't work out for you for example. Rather than going to iqos that is nearly as bad as smoking imo.

 

[ScottP]

A typical artificial strawberry flavor contains the following ingredients:

• amyl acetate,
• amyl butyrate,
• amyl valerate,
• anethol,
• anisyl formate,
• benzyl acetate,
• benzyl isobutyrate,
• butyric acid,
• cinnamyl isobutyrate,
• cinnamyl valerate,
• cognac essential oil,
• diacetyl,
• dipropyl ketone,
• ethyl acetate,
• ethyl amyl ketone,
• ethyl butyrate,
• ethyl cinnamate,
• ethyl heptanoate,
• ethyl heptylate,
• ethyl lactate,
• ethyl methylphenylglycidate,
• ethyl nitrate,
• ethyl propionate,
• ethyl valerate,
• heliotropin,
• hydroxyphenyl-2-butanone (10 percent solution in alcohol),
• a-ionone,
• isobutyl anthranilate,
• isobutyl butyrate,
• lemon essential oil,
• maltol,
• 4-methylacetophenone,
• methyl anthranilate,
• methyl benzoate,
• methyl cinnamate,
• methyl heptine carbonate,
• methyl naphthyl ketone,
• methyl salicylate,
• mint essential oil,
• neroli essential oil,
• nerolin,
• neryl isobutyrate,
• orris butter,
• phenethyl alcohol,
• rose,
• rum ether,
• g-undecalactone,
• vanillin,

Huh? The filed an MRTP application with the FDA. That means they have reams of data indicating they're safer.

Dr. Farsalinos has also done some independent testing and agrees. Not quite as good as vaping, but certainly much better than smoking.

Source on the Strawberry?

Some of the stuff I read indicated that while iQOS was safer per puff, the way it is required to be used would result in more puffs than smoking, leveling out the over all harm done. This was based in bio-markers testing in individuals using the device. Even if this turned out not to be true, and people were just reducing the quantities of bad stuff, that is still essentially saying that going from 2 packs per day to 1.5 packs per day or even 1 pack per day is "safer". Maybe, but you are still getting all the same chemicals anyway.

 

[Eskie]

Snus appears to be a good product with positive comments about it. It's great to have another option for smokers to turn to. I guess I'm less enthusiastic about IQOS because the mechanics in use are rather involved, and you're back to the "smoke a cigarette down to the filter" type of use rather than the "grazing" of taking a draw on a vape whenever you want without having to "finish" the pod/tank/whatever in one session. I also believe based on no data whatsoever as I haven't done a comparison to Snus but IQOS may end up more expensive. That it's close to the cost, if not higher, of regular cigarettes is a negative in limiting adoption by those on tight budgets. Vaping can be cheaper than smoking right at the start even with disposable pods.

 

[Rossum]

Source on the Strawberry?

http://www.feingold.org/strawberry.html

Some of the stuff I read indicated that while iQOS was safer per puff, the way it is required to be used would result in more puffs than smoking, leveling out the over all harm done. This was based in bio-markers testing in individuals using the device.

'
Source?

 

[Rossum]

I guess I'm less enthusiastic about IQOS because the mechanics in use are rather involved, and you're back to the "smoke a cigarette down to the filter" type of use rather than the "grazing" of taking a draw on a vape whenever you want without having to "finish" the pod/tank/whatever in one session.

Conversely, never being "finished" with one leads some people to vaping considerably more than they smoked.

 

[SleeZy]

Snus appears to be a good product with positive comments about it. It's great to have another option for smokers to turn to. I guess I'm less enthusiastic about IQOS because the mechanics in use are rather involved, and you're back to the "smoke a cigarette down to the filter" type of use rather than the "grazing" of taking a draw on a vape whenever you want without having to "finish" the pod/tank/whatever in one session. I also believe based on no data whatsoever as I haven't done a comparison to Snus but IQOS may end up more expensive. That it's close to the cost, if not higher, of regular cigarettes is a negative in limiting adoption by those on tight budgets. Vaping can be cheaper than smoking right at the start even with disposable pods.

Funny you mention the pricing there, we've that very situation in sweden atm.

It's now cheaper to smoke than it's to vape. However it's still cheaper to snus for example. Altho that also got hit quite hard with taxes. previous you'd get a can for 3$ now its 5$ But still plenty of "budget" brands that's still great.
Vaping on the other hand you've to pay 5-7$ for cheaper nic shots 10ml max 20mg. And these days you can only buy premade blends rather expensive, or those shake and vape Ie 20ml bottle of flavoring you add 10ml nic shot to = 30ml usualy 3mg juice. for the low prie of 14-17$ and that's the cheap brand.
The premade 10ml bottles of 12mg or higher is 5-10$ depending on the brand, the cheap ones are the trashy 0.5$ juices you'd order from overseas. Either a well known brand (IE hangsen etc) Or the company got approved and makde their own brand which noone heard of.. and well taste just as bad.

I only DIY since a long time so i'm less affected by this, atleast when it comes to premade flavors. The nic bases however still sucks me rather dry vs before.

So put all this in perspective in sweden for example snus is cheaper and superior in many ways. Which is also why vaping never realy took off here until past 2-3 years.

I used to run a forum with a couple of enthusiasts but we never realy reached more than 1000 members and it slowly died off. Most of the vaping talk is now done on facebook, which i rare use so well.. kind of lost touch with our community due that.

 

[SleeZy]

Conversely, never being "finished" with one leads some people to vaping considerably more than they smoked.

And why would that matter? Honestly. Pure nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine is. And i'm pretty sure you're aware of this.
And the fact that when you vape you don't absorb as much nicotine as when smoking. Well i guess unless you're sub-ohming 12+ mg. But you'd get overnic pretty fast doing so.
Personally as a MTL "tootle puffer" as you guys like to call it, i went from 24 (to strong) to 18mg, then 12. Been going to 6 at times but usualy fall back up.

So even if you're vaping more than you're smoking i'm not sure where you're getting at. You're not realy getting much more nic, and if / when you do you'll clearly feel it and you'd stop. So i don't realy see the issue here.

I used to think you were very informed, granted i've been away from forums for awhile and only post occasionally.
But now it seems like you're just argumenting for argues sake. If that makes sense.
Hard to explain what i'm trying to say i feel.

Lastly, it's not the nic that's the problem with smoking it's all the other crap added and what happens when you combust it. And well i guess you also know this already.
Ah well i'll stop here i feel like i'm digging a hole because i want to write so much on top of my head, that my english starts to suffers greatly from doing so

 

[Baditude]

I've been using these ZEN nicotine pouches when I can't vape. They work pretty good. They aren't as satisfying as being able to vape, but they easily get me through a movie or ball game where I can't vape. They are available in flavors; I use the Coffee and the Cinnamon.

 

[SleeZy]

I've been using these ZEN nicotine pouches when I can't vape. They work pretty good. They aren't as satisfying as being able to vape, but they easily get me through a movie or ball game where I can't vape. They are available in flavors; I use the Coffee and the Cinnamon.

I'm about 10 mins into the clip, but oh my you can hear he's swedish Maybe i sound like that as well who knows.

That said, Zyn is nothing like snus in terms of flavors nor how satisfied you will feel. Or how i should explain it.
It's a decent product, but not very well recieved here in sweden. (Probably due we're so used to the real thing)
But it's great that they're expanding in the area, and to be frank this is mostly a way to try get outside of EU. To make them actually listen. (Even EU peeps as u can see in the clip)

Word of warning though, discovering all the snus flavors etc, is like being new to vaping again. You'll want to try everything until you'll find what clicks for you. And for everyone not accustomed to salty flavors it may take awhile, us swedes loves our liquorice and salt, so many flavors tend to go twards that and bergamot. (Think earl gray tea)
For me personally it's General or Göteborgsrapé, yes this word will most likley sound very strange to you.

But yea Baditude, if you want to feel satisfied so to speak, try some real snus. That said zyn is great alternative to snus but it's just not the same. However it's probably better than "Skoal" i think the brand is, that US is used to. And that is not snus.

And due speaking of all of this, i went to check the forum dedicated to this, it's almost dead, and very hidden. It's quite the shame. I feel like the general discussion forum should incoperate all kinds of non smoking ways to quit smoking. (Except the illegal ones ofc.)

 

[CMD-Ky]

I used Skoal for a while. It was very bad for my gums. I suppose a concentrated dose of a relatively powerful vaso-constrictor was engine that drove my gum problems. My experience with Skoal has led me to avoid all such products. Perhaps the Snus deserve consideration.

I'm about 10 mins into the clip, but oh my you can hear he's swedish Maybe i sound like that as well who knows.

That said, Zyn is nothing like snus in terms of flavors nor how satisfied you will feel. Or how i should explain it.
It's a decent product, but not very well recieved here in sweden. (Probably due we're so used to the real thing)
But it's great that they're expanding in the area, and to be frank this is mostly a way to try get outside of EU. To make them actually listen. (Even EU peeps as u can see in the clip)

Word of warning though, discovering all the snus flavors etc, is like being new to vaping again. You'll want to try everything until you'll find what clicks for you. And for everyone not accustomed to salty flavors it may take awhile, us swedes loves our liquorice and salt, so many flavors tend to go twards that and bergamot. (Think earl gray tea)
For me personally it's General or Göteborgsrapé, yes this word will most likley sound very strange to you.

But yea Baditude, if you want to feel satisfied so to speak, try some real snus. That said zyn is great alternative to snus but it's just not the same. However it's probably better than "Skoal" i think the brand is, that US is used to. And that is not snus.

And due speaking of all of this, i went to check the forum dedicated to this, it's almost dead, and very hidden. It's quite the shame. I feel like the general discussion forum should incoperate all kinds of non smoking ways to quit smoking. (Except the illegal ones ofc.)

 

[SleeZy]

I used Skoal for a while. It was very bad for my gums. I suppose a concentrated dose of a relatively powerful vaso-constrictor was engine that drove my gum problems. My experience with Skoal has led me to avoid all such products. Perhaps the Snus deserve consideration.

Hmm not sure how to face this question. If you've gum problems, then snus is probably not good either as it'll irritate slightly. Hard to explain, but say first time you'll use a snus it'll burn slightly until you get used to having a pouch there. Once that's gone though, it's silky smooth and non issue, except the very budget brands that uses pouches that feels like sandpaper. Which may have been your experience. 9/10 times you won't even feel you've a snus in the lip.

Even more so if you go with "white" pouches which is very dry and never drips. Which is helpful for beginners, as i personally didn't like when it dripped either from my saliva. However that's also what's carrying most of the taste so after awhile i rather wanted it to "drip" in my mouth or how i should explain it. You'll get all the flavors in the mouth. But as first time snuser the taste will most likley be to strong. So if you decide to try it, go for white portions.
General white would be my recommendation.

But again, if you've still gum problems i don't think using snus will be such a good idea. Since you will get most of the nicotine from the pouch into your mouth/gums.
But it's also known to not cause gum issues, so i'm conflicted on how to answer this question, if this makes any sense.

That said the way snus is produced is so very diffrent from skoal so it's not even comparable. And thus i can see why not many outside of sweden/neighbouring countries knows what snus realy is.

So it's great now that general is now "okay'd" by FDA which may mean you'll get more brands out there and so on. If nothing else you can order online, but i heard it's quite pricy due some new law to ship into US. (Snubie mentioned it, but i don't know the implications of it)

And speaking of him, here's a beginners clip he made years ago (aimed twards US ppl), which may be of help to you.

 

[Rossum]

And why would that matter? Honestly. Pure nicotine is no more harmful than caffeine is. And i'm pretty sure you're aware of this.
And the fact that when you vape you don't absorb as much nicotine as when smoking. Well i guess unless you're sub-ohming 12+ mg. But you'd get overnic pretty fast doing so.
Personally as a MTL "tootle puffer" as you guys like to call it, i went from 24 (to strong) to 18mg, then 12. Been going to 6 at times but usualy fall back up.

So even if you're vaping more than you're smoking i'm not sure where you're getting at. You're not realy getting much more nic, and if / when you do you'll clearly feel it and you'd stop. So i don't realy see the issue here.

Its not about the nicotine. It's a behavioral thing. Being able to grab a puff or two at any time without the commitment to finish a stick, and without ever being finished with one, is both a blessing and a curse.

 

[englishmick]

Its not about the nicotine. It's a behavioral thing. Being able to grab a puff or two at any time without the commitment to finish a stick, and without ever being finished with one, is both a blessing and a curse.

Bit like that with rollies. They would go out as soon as you stopped sucking on them. Take a couple of drags then stick it behind your ear or leave it dangling from your lip.

I vaped non-stop when I first started. Now I often don't pick up a vape if I'm doing something interesting. With the IQOS it seems you are locked into cigarette style usage. Fire it up and hit it until it's finished.

With both smoking and vaping the body seems to have a natural ability to self regulate. People don't tend to OD on nicotine in normal circumstances. I guess that's true with IQOS too, you would fire it up when you needed more nic. But the ability to take one hit on a vape must make that self regulation easier, especially when you've been vaping for a while and your need for nicotine isn't so urgent.

 

[Jingles]

I use General Snus at work and it really does satisfy me. In a five hour shift I will go out to vape once and then later I will put a piece of Snus in and I'm good for the rest of my shift. My gums are fine also. I do enjoy vaping more though, so at home I never use Snus. Maybe I should though, so I would get more done around the house.