Vaporizing loose leaf tobacco

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Canadian_Vaper

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help others who may have had trouble kicking the smoking habit
Supporting Big tobacco = Supporting Mass Murder...

While it may not be so prevalent or visible in the US or other wealthier nations... Countries where tobacco laws are more relaxed Big tobacco targets a much wider audience including children... For me it's a matter of ethics, the money given to big tobacco gets spent on advertising in poorer countries, Indonesia is a good example of what I mean, big tobacco has spent billions to enter the market, where for instance school sports teams get supports from Big Tobacco, imagine your child's baseball or soccer team was funded by big tobacco and have cigarette ads around their fields?

Never again...
 
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GivingUp

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I've been pretty up front about my feelings about big tobacco. If you read my posts, I'm not giving any money to them. iQOS is relevant because it can inform how we can do the same thing, use the same concept, without giving money to the big tobacco companies. Which is exactly what I'm doing. I don't understand why I can't discuss a concept relevant with members of the ecf community, many of whom are dual users eager to give up. If they're buying tobacco anyway, why are you opposed to them vaping it? I'm totally confused by your position on dual use.
 
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Canadian_Vaper

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I've been pretty up front about my feelings about big tobacco. If you read my posts, I'm not giving any money to them. iQOS is relevant because it can inform how we can do the same thing, use the same concept, without giving money to the big tobacco companies. Which is exactly what I'm doing. I don't understand why I can't discuss a concept relevant with members of the ecf community, many of whom are dual users eager to give up. If they're buying tobacco anyway, why are you opposed to them vaping it? I'm totally confused by your position on dual use.

I'll stop on this note, while e-cigs use pure pharmaceutical grade nicotine (all the other stuff is taken out), don't fool yourself, there is more in tobacco than just nicotine, 90% of the tobacco that is grown in the US is genetically modified and roundup is heavily sprayed on it used as desiccants before harvest, so much unless wearing a special suit you can't even go near the fields without getting sick... I don't know about you but vaping roundup just sounds like a bad idea to me...
 

rhelton

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All I use is a vaporizer with adjustable temp which comes with a metal liquid pad (I vape between 155 and 165 degrees C at the moment but have been up to 170). I load the vape half way with quality rolling tobacco, spread a drop of pure glycerol on the liquid pad and pop it liquid side down on the tobacco. That's it. All I have to replace regularly is the thin gauze and make sure I clean with water every day to get rid of condensed glycerol. Full clean with alcohol every week. Glycerol (i.e. VG) and Isopropyl alcohol are cheap. (And don't expect anywhere near the battery life of an e-cig).

The vaporizer you use is it the one that is up near the 400 dollar range?
 

GivingUp

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I'll stop on this note, while e-cigs use pure pharmaceutical grade nicotine (all the other stuff is taken out), don't fool yourself, there is more in tobacco than just nicotine, 90% of the tobacco that is grown in the US is genetically modified and roundup is heavily sprayed on it used as desiccants before harvest, so much unless wearing a special suit you can't even go near the fields without getting sick... I don't know about you but vaping roundup just sounds like a bad idea to me...

If you read the thread, you'd see that I've already (so far) posted two separate chemical analyses on tobacco vapour and addressed pesticides. Let's move on.
 

GivingUp

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The vaporizer you use is it the one that is up near the 400 dollar range?

I've moved on to the Crafty which is more portable. It is very expensive at £180 but for me its an investment in health. Amazon will be cheaper than the official website. The important thing is temp control and being able to vape below 180 degrees C. There are others that can do the same thing for less money.
 
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rhelton

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I've moved on to the Crafty which is more portable. It is very expensive at £180 but for me its an investment in health. Amazon will be cheaper than the official website. The important thing is temp control and being able to vape below 180 degrees C. There are others that can do the same thing for less money.

Thank you for the information. I am going to research and see what is all available. Maybe I will hit up Indoor Smokers and ask him about some other units to look at as he deals with them on the daily.
 

GivingUp

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An update on temperatures, have finally settled.

Generally, stronger nicotine hit with higher temps. But toxins will also be higher so watch out.

No VG:
130-150 degrees C
Any higher than this is very harsh. In general, vaping without any VG at all is pretty harsh. Find the sweet spot where most comfortable. I'd recommend always using a drop of VG.

With VG:
I find 170 degrees C is best. While the VG will eventually vaporize at anything above 145 it seems, it's strange that it feels harsher at lower temps. Even 160 is harsher than 170. It's almost as if 170 is a nice vape point for VG where it provides good vapour and smooths out the tobacco harshness without hitting higher temps where more toxins will be released.

How to hit:
When the vaporizer has reached the right temp, start puffing immediately but not inhaling, pulling heat through the tobacco until you get reasonable vapour. After temp is reached, do not leave it to continue heating without puffing or the first puff will be too strong - start straight away. Start with small mouth to lung puffs. The bite you get indicates the tobacco being vaporized. Gradually, you'll notice this bite wears off. Move to straight to lung hits until you are left with essentially VG and no bite. As soon as you hit this stage (or beforehand if flavour starts to turn), stop vaping, your bowl is spent. After this, it's possible to keep pulling out more vapour - the remnants of the VG, but you'll notice the flavour is off. This seemed to give me a sore mouth after a few uses so I think it's possible this continued heating of the tobacco may lead to further breakdown of the tobacco and more toxins but without the satisfaction. By no means a scientific approach, but by stopping earlier in the process, it is MUCH nicer.
 
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MMW

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I tried a sub-ohm recently and the amount of vapour goes way beyond any kind of realistic simulation of smoking so I don't really see the value in it.
I believe, for me, this is part of the equation. I'm not trying to mimic the exact simulation of smoking, therefore it's a different behavior away from smoking tobacco in how I used to. Which equates to a step away. Some folks are looking to replicate it for satisfaction, and it works for them. Personally I like the vapor feel in my lungs on the inhale more than the heavier smoke/tobacco feel.

Here's where the addiction part plays in for me as far as not smoking for just today, nothing about the rest of my life. As long as modern day tobacco is avoided for me, I feel it's a daily win.

Great thread btw @GivingUp .
 

GivingUp

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That's a great rational response MMW. Each day as it comes. Realistically, there's no silver bullet, we just have to find our own way as best we can. Sub-ohms are as much a part of this as my tobbaco vaporizing and no doubt safer. When I used it, it felt a bit like the vapour was being forced into my mouth rather than a more passive approach like my mini protank. I imagine this could be a bit of a shock to beginners as it was to me with plenty of prior experience of e-cigs. I'd recommend starting on a pen vape if I was asked.

One thing about the tobacco vaporizing is it relies totally on the user pulling the hot air through. It is totally passive, no button to press, a lot like smoking. I am looking to move to dual use eventually but need to find the right liquid first. Dual use being tobbaco vape + e-cig.

Here's another PDF I found on heated tobacco vapour. Again, it's from big tobacco, British American Tobacco in this case. Vested interest alert, obviously.

http://www.bat-science.com/groupms/...ve/DO9USEE2/$FILE/SOT_2015_JC.pdf?openelement
 
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GivingUp

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Thank you for the information. I am going to research and see what is all available. Maybe I will hit up Indoor Smokers and ask him about some other units to look at as he deals with them on the daily.

I can't verify this info but someone on Reddit helpfully listed temperature ranges of the Arizer Solo (that OhTheAgony has used). I won't link to it as there is discussion of non-tobacco product:

Serial Number M101 to M102
Level 1=50 C
Level 2=185
Level 3=190
Level 4=195
Level 5=200
Level 6=205
Level 7=210
Serial Number M103 to M104
Level 1=40 C
Level 2=170 C
Level 3=183 C
Level 4=195 C
Level 5=205 C
Level 6=220 C
Level 7=235 C
Serial Number M105 to M106
Level 1=40 C
Level 2=150 C
Level 3=163 C
Level 4=175 C
Level 5=185 C
Level 6=200 C
Level 7=220 C

If going for the solo, I'd say the later serial numbers would be the ones to go for as there is better variation of low temperatures.
 

GivingUp

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So I tried iQOS at the weekend. It's very similar to vaping loose leaf, though more user friendly as it has disposable 'heat sticks' which can easily be swapped out. Disposability is great for convenience, not so great for the environment, though I'm told the plastic in the heat sticks is food based and biodegradable (not sure about the filter tip they use). The heat sticks contain very little tobacco but it is apparently concentrated in some way. The tobacco is packed in straight tiny strips cut from reconstituted sheets.

In terms of direct comparison:

Vapour
Same kind of vapour (i.e. tobacco + VG) but the amount it produces is regulated in the iQOS so it is more consistent. It is possible when vaping loose leaf to take a hit that is overwhelming whereas the iQOS gives more consistent hits. This becomes less of an issue when you have experience of vaping loose leaf as you just get used to how to use it - giving you freedom to use as you wish. Once you are used to vaping loose leaf, it is possible to replicate the iQOS experience almost exactly. Bite and satisfaction of iQOS is basically the same as vaping loose leaf, which makes sense as it's the same concept but the iQOS uses a heated blade that conducts heat through the tobacco whereas my vape uses convection heating - known to be more effective than conduction approach and less likely to accidentally combust. Loose leaf vaping is done at a much lower temp.

Flavour
This is obviously subjective but the flavour from the iQOS is similar to loose leaf but not as nice - has a distinctive twang which I didn't like. The tobacco in their sheets has been treated (with VG among other things) and I suspect there may be some flavouring added (maybe to try and replicate the Marlboro taste). The loose leaf vape easily wins on this front, with a lovely natural, clean tobacco taste. The residual vapour smell from iQOS is similar to loose leaf vape (both disappate quickly).

Convenience and cost
iQOS is more convenient but the cost of heat sticks will add up quickly when compared to loose leaf. In the EU, we may see the price of loose leaf go up significantly over the coming years so this cost difference may become less significant. Much more waste with the iQOS. The way I like to compare is to say loose leaf is like smoking a pipe, iQOS is more like a cigarette. Probably two distinct groups of users. One heat stick didn't seem to last as long as one bowl in the vape. iQOS has a slicker design than all the loose leaf vapes with a very compact mobile charging unit. With the loose leaf vape, I'm having to use liquid VG whereas the iQOS uses treated tobacco. Carrying the VG and adding a drop every time is inconvenient, but more like loading a pipe than using cigs.

Battery life
This is the only area where for me the iQOS shines completely over the loose leaf. The cig bit slots into a charger device when you've used it so gets charged in your pocket/bag before the next use. You get 12 puffs or 6 mins of vaping per mini-charge and the charging unit itself needs to be charged each day. The Crafty loose leaf vape provides 4 (sometimes 5) smokes per charge and takes another 1 & 1/2 hours to recharge. At +20% charge you can use the crafty while plugged in. Crafty uses micro USB charging. Its older sibling, the Mighty, will provide 8-10 smokes per charge and can be used with a flat battery when plugged in. Has a non-USB charger.

Personally, I prefer the loose leaf vape. More freedom around tobacco (could even use flavoured tobacco) and provides a cleaner flavour. Charging is an issue but I carry charging packs with me. If the WTA does not work out for me (still waiting for it to arrive), I may well invest in an iQOS when it becomes available here for those days when I need to be out for a whole day with no room for extra chargers etc. The cost of heat sticks would become prohibitive to long term users of cheaper rolling tobacco though and the waste element will frustrate eco-aware users. It does have the convenience element going for it so there's definitely a market I'd say.

But I'll stick to loose leaf tobacco. And if you want to avoid the Big Tobacco companies, it's the only way out of the two.
 
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GivingUp

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Is there a specified vaporizer for loose leaf tobacco? All I can find are kinds of dry herb vaporizers like PAX,
Pulsar APX, Black widow ... and a device works with dry herbs doesnt work good with tobacco leafs

Yes, you'd need to use a dry herb vaporizer like the ones you mention. One important aspect is temperature control as many will be automatically configured to use 180 degrees C and above. I vape at 170 so need to have ability to change temp. The Crafty and Mighty vaporizers allow full control as do a few others. If you go with a vaporizer that has multiple fixed temperature modes, go for ones with good ranges between 140 and 180 degrees C. Also, the vaping will not be very nice without one small drop of added VG liquid (glycerol, glycerine). Add a drop (preferably to some kind of liquid pad that can hold the fluid without soaking the tobacco) and try vaping at 170 and below. More nicotine is released at higher temps. But it would appear other toxins increase too. It is possible to vape tobacco without VG, but I'd go for even lower temps in that case (140-160).

Also take a look at the Ascent by DaVinci and the Arizer Solo (but later serial numbers for the solo). Or splash out on the Storz & Bickel vaporizers.
 

Wombats1

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Interesting thread,
Im in aussie, cant buy juice with nic here unless i import, about 5 months back i was nearly dead. Lungs full of gunk, dr was saying you need oxygen, pumped me full of cortisone and oxygen (CTScan COPD(EMPHYSEMA )), off to specialist (still waiting).
Decided, enough is enough, sourced a herbal vaporizer, in goes the tobacco, WOW!! Good vaper with our tobacco as pg is present (humectant)

I am unable to articulate just how good this worked for me.

No combustion= no tar, i am able to walk from room to room no problems, down to the shop etc. I feel like a different person literally.
Finally got some ejuice switched to ecig, this also works fine for myself. Stopped vaping the tobacco because the juice is cheaper (we pay $50 for 50g pouch)

Thankyou for this good thread
 

Trissah

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So grateful for this forum! New to attempting vape loose leaf tobacco. I ordered a starter white rhino with 2 L.L. cartridges and have looked at Firefly2 & V2 Pro.
Any suggestions for tobacco? I am considering an Amer Spirit. Apparently it needs to be ground? I do not know what consistency.
Smoker over 50 years, arthritic fingers have caused frustration with vape pens like egos. Too much maintenance. I have a kanger tech, tried cuboid mini. The liquid vapes aren't converting me. Some digital disposable e-cigs are pretty good like Lex12 but still not 100%
I look forward to your replies and would love your support in this new venture I am undertaking! Thank you
 
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