Mine is still in transit. Any day now. I’m really looking forward to it after reading your review.
- Status
Mine is still in transit. Any day now. I’m really looking forward to it after reading your review.
In no particular order, Recurve, the axial, Bunker, and .Blank. They’re not the latest and greatest. I’d be interested in trying more current single coil bottom feeds.
I am also a huge fan of some of the RDTAs I’ve been test driving like the Artemis.
Okay so, this will be my attempt at trying to help in understanding the differences in how AC works versus DC. I cannot claim how much better or worse it works in comparison between the two, as it actually seems to be less efficient for AC to "heat" a coil because it's more efficient in transferring energy. The coefficient of energy lost to heat is much better, which is why AC is used in power lines to transfer energy in longer distances. Regardless, it fires the coils just fine, and does it rather exceptionally.
Okay, so I'm borrowing this from a different post I made earlier in another thread - I'm going to try and clean it up a bit though.
-DC-
DC current is by and large what the vaping market currently use in their mods. When you close the circuit (fire the mod), it turns on, until the circuit is broken, then off. The current moves in one direction, starting at the source of power, and ending at the source of power. It runs laps, essentially. In the graph above, you can see that the value (current) remains flatlined once the circuit is connected and running. Simple, right?
-AC-
Now let's introduce you to the messed up distant cousin. Imagine in your left hand, holding a horse shoe sideways so it looks like a C. In your right hand, you have a coat hanger that you've bent into a U-shape, holding it sideways at the wire ends. You then spin the coat hanger on the horizontal axis (twisting your wrist) in between the ends of the horse shoe.
An AC current uses an outer C-shaped electromagnet and a U-shaped wire that's spun along a horizontal axis between the poles of the magnet. The arm that spins this wire on the horizontal axis is also providing an electrical current through the wire. When both wires are closest to the electromagnet (straight up and down), you will have the strongest current, as one magnetic pole is pushing (green) and the other side is pulling (red). That is a peak for the frequency or oscillation (tracked with the dot) if you were to picture a sound or light wave (reference the top right part of the animation for oscillation). You will also notice the current meter reads full positive or full negative when wires are closest to the magnet.
If you look at the line that divides the green and red portions of the electromagnet, imagine that line being a horizontal plane that splits the top and bottom half of the magnet. Any wire or current that moves into the top half of that plane (red/negative), will be effected by that magnet's electromagnetic field. Any current that moves into the bottom half of that plane (green/positive), will also be subject to that electromagnetic field. The relative strength of those fields decrease outward from each side of the electromagnet meaning when the wire is positioned perpendicular to the electromagnet, there's very little if any effect from either positive or negative field - it's neutral. As you watch the animation, you'll notice that the wire that's spinning is constantly being switched between negative and positive electromagnetic fields. They are "alternating", which is where the name Alternating Current comes from.
This is also why they tell you not to put strong magnets near electronics or hard drives.
This is what electromagnetic fields look like. In this picture, pretend the right U-shaped magnet is the one used in the yellow animated gif, but just turned on its side.
As it continues to spin, the wires that were closest to the magnetic poles will now begin traveling further away. At every 1/4 turn of the full cycle, either the wires are the closest they can be to the electromagnetic poles, or the furthest away that they can be. When furthest away, this is the weakest interaction the current has with the electromagnetic fields and also the point in which the current polarity switches. When the wires are closest to the electromagnets, we are at the strongest interaction with the electromagnetic field, thus creating the strongest current or peak (positive or negative value) in the wave oscillation.
** For the purpose of visibility in the pictures, they're not positioned in perfect 90 degree intervals. When I say perpendicular, it's referencing a straight 90 relation between the wire and electromagnet whereas the pictures show a position just beyond that. For all intents and purposes, pretend it's at 90 degrees or perpendicular.
** Turn/Rotation/Cycle/Frequency are all interchangeable in this explanation, as their relation to one another are identical. For example, a 1/4 turn or rotation of the wire will move it from perpendicular to parallel, which also means we've moved along the path of the frequency or cycle, a 1/4.
** My Photoshop skills are better, I promise, lol.
View attachment 951993
Initial Position in the Cycle - Perpendicular
In the electromagnetic wire diagram below, when we reach perpendicular (the wire conductor in relation to the green and red electromagnet), the wires are least effected by the electromagnetic fields as they're right on the border between both the positive and negative electromagnetic fields. Once both halves of the wire are forced into the positive and negative electromagnetic field, the current is running through the wire is going to be reversed. In relation to the entire frequency cycle, this would be just past the mid-point of the total upward oscillation in the top right graph of the picture below.
View attachment 951963
To try and simplify this, in the picture above, if we were to name the little black arrows attached to the spinning halves of the wire, 1 and 2, when side 1 of the wire is leaving red, side 2 is leaving the green. 1 and 2 are just past 90 degrees which means the direction of the current has just switched. 2 is now closer to the red electromagnet and 1 is now closest to the green side of the electromagnet. The dot in the oscillation graph in the top right has just crossed the zero Y value, and the current meter is showing a movement from neutral to positive. Let's consider this the start of the cycle.
1/4 Turn of the Cycle - Parallel
Into the first 1/4 turn of the wire, the wires will begin approaching closer to the electromagnetic poles. As this happens the electromagnet fields pushing (green - lower half of the plane) and pulling (red - upper half of the plane) increases the interaction/strength of the current.
View attachment 951961
When the wire reaches vertical and is parallel with the electromagnet, we are at the highest point in the oscillation - the strongest point. Notice in the top right oscillation graph the dot is at the peak, and the current meter is full positive.
1/2 Turn of the cycle - Perpendicular
Beyond the first quarter turn, the wires begin moving further away from the magnetic poles weakening in current strength as it does. When at 1/2 rotation of the cycle, we are at the mid-point of the entire downward portion of the oscillation and at the weakest point of the current.
View attachment 951965
Like the starting position, the oscillating dot has just crossed the X axis again but this time into a negative Y value. When crossing that line, again we are at the point in which the flow of current weakest, and then reversed. In this case based upon the position of the dot, the current meter, and the electromagnetic diagram - we've just crossed that point.
3/4 Turn of the Cycle - Parallel
Moving from 1/2 rotation to 3/4 rotation, we will see much of what was explained between the initial position (perpendicular) and the first 1/4 turn. In this case however, wire 1 will now be closest to red (instead of green) and wire 2 will now be closest to green (instead of red) - they've switched in positions because we're at 1/2 rotation, or 1/2 of the full frequency oscillation. The oscillation dot is now at the fullest negative value in the cycle, and the current meter reads full negative. If you look 2 pictures above, they are the exact same picture more or less - just flipped around.
View attachment 951967
Notice how the position of wire 1 in the first quarter turn, is now in the position of wire 2? Where wire 2 started, is now where wire 1 is. Again at this state, the current is interacting with the electromagnet fields the most, meaning it's the strongest.
Almost at 1 Full Cycle - Perpendicular
In rounding out the last 1/4 turn in the entire frequency cycle, you'll notice the wires approaching back to perpendicular, the oscillation dot returning back toward the X axis, and the current meter moving toward neutral. Again, beyond perpendicular, the polarity in the current will move in the other direction when being subject to the next electromagnetic fields indicated by the neutral values in the oscillation graph and current meter.
View attachment 951957
The completion of this full rotation or frequency oscillation is a single Hz.
Setting a higher Hz value will cause a higher frequency, which means more oscillations for a given time period. In the case of the Z80, setting the Hz to 100 likely means there's a 100 full rotations a second, or 100 Hz. Setting it lower to say 20 Hz, stretches or expands that oscillation slowing it down to 20 full rotations per second. This is where the "pulse" comes in. In the description above, every time the wires are nearest to the magnetic poles, this is when the current is strongest. As it pertains to the Z80 mod, this is when the coil would be the hottest - a pulse. Think of it like you're rapidly hitting the fire button on your DC mod - you're pulsing the fire button. In relation to what I just described above - the initial position is perpendicular being the weakest - this is a lull in the current. When at 1/4 rotation, it is at one of its strongest points. Coil is heated. At 1/2 rotation, we hit another lull (neutral Y value in oscillation and neutral current reading) - the flow of current is reversed in direction. At 3/4 rotation, we hit max electromagnetic interaction with both fields meaning another pulse - coil is heated. Reaching full rotation, another lull and current polarity switch. Rinse, repeat.
In the Innokin CoolFire Z80, when setting the hertz to 20, It's just slow enough for you to be able to hear and feel this pulse ever so slightly. I think that's pretty awesome. When set the Hz to anything above 25 or 30, I do not notice the frequency oscillation.
We've seen mods like the Vaporesso Gen S and Ultra/X mimic this behavior in their mods utilizing their "Pulse Mode". However, you aren't able to adjust how fast it's pulsing - you can now with the Z80 via Hz.
Now, how they managed to get this all into a chip is beyond me, but I'm not going to complain because I love it.
I hope this helps some. I apologize, it's been a while since I've studied brushless AC motors, so some of this is rather rusty.
Awesome man thanks for all that info...wish my english was better cause i know some stuff about ac but u say some very detailed and advanced information that i will take my time and use translation to understand totally when i have time...lol
I cant explain tho why when i use the 0.3ohm coild on 100hz i notice vibration but when i use it at 20-25 i dont notice anything its sooooo wierd.....and i was wondering why cause it should be oposite like you experience it. Wierd isnt it???
Also since u know that stuff do u know if there is a point that if the hertz sooooo high that we can say that maybe u lose the whole point???? I mean the z80 i got goes up to 100hz but i know others goes up to 400hz or something....maybe in application of heating a coil its useless to go that high? What u think?
Also i am prefering to use the 0.3o coil at 20-30hz and i felt its something similar like u say to the vaporessos pulse mode....but i guess the ac propably provides a more even heating or maybe doesnt really matter in this application and its kinda similar except the fact that there is some vibration that maybe helps keep the coil cleaner of gunk...and the fact that i can adjust the pulse...
Anyway i feel like in any way i tried either mesh or coils or mtl or dl and different sizes and rtas i tried it in everything and i feel like the more high hertz i go i lose flavour...like i never use it more than 30hz..
Also i noticed compared to to other mods this one reads resistances a little higher snd i dont know if thats why but i feel it hits harder....i am not mad ofc lol i just always use a little less wattage than my other mods.
Last edited:
I absolutely love the machining and look of THC. They are definitely up there when I think "quality". The Artemis is like 3rd or 4th in series with many others like it - Profile 1.5, Expromizer... I wanna say there's another. Definitely looking into getting the Artemis though.
I don't want to divert the thread discussion, but I have a few in mind if you're interested in my opinion.
I have to get ready for work, but I will get back to you on this. I will say, at a certain amount of hertz, you're just causing excessive burnout on the circuitry. The mechanics of spinning the wire and use of the generator have to be sped up 2000% from 20 Hz to 400 Hz. Try walking, and then walking 2000% faster. You're going to get tired and wear out pretty quickly, right? Probably hertz yourself? XD
I wonder if the 0.3 ohm coil isn't a thinner gauge, and so the vibration is more noticeable than in the 0.8. It doesn't explain why you can't feel it at 20-25 Hz though. I don't know the answer to that - it does seem odd though.
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure of the science behind the Refresh function and such. I have tried it and it does seem to recreate a better tasting vape.
Pulse in my opinion is superior regardless of whether it's being accomplished via DC or AC. In between the pulses, those milliseconds of pauses allow juice to be fed closer to the wire before it's fired again which is going to create a more voluminous vape regardless of the ohms. The lower Hz for this would be better as it pulses slower, which would make sense that we're getting better flavor at 20 Hz vs. 100 Hz.
I see this being an advantage for a couple of reasons. Although, in one sense it could be more dangerous since the lower ohms we get to - <0.10 ohms for example, the higher chance we have of running everything hotter with such lower resistances. However, the advantages I see are:
1) Many newer mods can read down to 0.05 ohms (some down to even 0.3). This is really low, but it's still readable for some mods. For the Z80, it has a coil reading range of 0.1 to 3.5 ohms (I think this is safer). If it reads the coil higher than it actually is, it should in fact likely be able to pick up a coil that reads 0.08 or 0.07 on a different mod. I just checked two atties and one reads 0.2 ohms on the Drag X Plus (0.24 ohms on the Z80), and the other reads 0.8 ohms on the DXP (0.88 on the Z80).
2) Volts / Ohms = Amps. A higher ohm reading would lead to a lower amp draw, which would mean you could max the amps on the CDR of a battery, and achieve a higher than expected performance in wattage. For example, since this mod is buck boosted, we can expect to draw 4.2 Volts until the battery dies. To make the math simple, let's use a Z80 coil reading of 0.21 ohms. 4.2V / 0.21R = 20A. If the coil is actually a 0.18 Resistance, the Amp output would be 4.2V / 0.18R = 23.33A in a different mod. Since Amps x Volts = Wattage, this would mean you need to lower the wattage in comparison to the Z80, to get that Amp value back down to 20A, if you're using a 20A CDR battery. If you're using a 25A battery, then you're fine. But you're still achieving better battery efficiency with the Z80 than the other mod.
3) Let's say you want to use max watts in the Z80 - 80 watts. 80w / 4.2V = 19.05A (let's round it to 19A). 4.2V / (X)R = 19A. Divide both sides by 4.2V, so 1 / (X)R = 19A / 4.2V. Cross multiply to get rid of the fraction, so 19A * (X)R = 4.2V. Divide both sides by 19A, (X)R = 4.2V / 19A. (X)R = (0.22)R. Any coil used under 0.22 ohms is going to require higher than 19A if you wish to use 80w in the Z80. So the Z80 reads the coil at 0.22 ohms. Let's say the resistance of that coil is read at 0.18 ohms in a different mod. Assuming the other mod is buck boosted or its battery is at full charge, 4.2V / 0.18R = 23.33A. Multiply by 4.2V to get the wattage. 23.33A x 4.2V = 98 watts. The other mod is using 98 watts to achieve the same performance that the Z80 can achieve at 80 watts. So essentially the Z80 is squeezing out an additional 18 watts while capping out at 80 watts. I think the math is all correct here...
Anyway, this would explain why you're using a lower wattage in the Z80 in comparison to other mods to achieve the same performance. All bonuses here.
Last edited:
Does your z80 go up to 400hz or 100hz? And if so dont u think 400hz gonna eliminate the pulse effect and maybe isnt nessesary go that high??? What u think?
About the reason i feel pulse at higher hz instead of lower yeah its wierd and maybe has something to do eitu rhe specific coil cause i havent used abother one caude i rebuild it now...
But i am gonna get few to have for rebuilds and i will see if its still same...
Its not that i dont like it and anyways i dont vaoe that high hertz but just curious since the oposite happens to to other people lol
My CoolFire only goes up to 100 Hz. Did they up it to 400 Hz on the final released mods?
It would eliminate the vibration you hear from the oscillating frequency, but at that amount of Hertz, you're like to start encountering vibrations/noise for other reasons. I don't remember which mod I was just reading about, but they reported that mod with "buzzing" from both firing and not firing. The engineers deemed it normal, being that's how electricity is.
That i am not sure if they capped the hz on final release or that ours are pre production and have lower hz...
I know for sure tho people here some have that goes up to 400hz ans also the sensis goes up to 500hz if i am not wrong...
I'm not Tor R but on checking the Hz range on the one I just received yesterday, purchased direct from Innokin, it's 20 - 500 Hz
Ok just tried it
didn't notice any buzzing but honestly the flavor was better I have been trying it out at low Hz since that seemed to be the most talked about use. I admit I have no idea about Hz
You're MTL'ing I assume? How long would you say your average draw is?Ok just tried it
I notice with MTL, that the concentration of flavor is more potent, but w/out much vape, it dissipates quite quickly. It's like a burst of flavor, and then gone.
Yes MTL more to RDL. I would guess 2-3 seconds. I mainly vape at around 9w with 1.6 or 1.8 coils or when I build 1.0 coil
Was the flavor better or different? I only noticed a degradation of flavor as I went higher Hz's for both RDL and MTL. I did however notice between regular wattage mode and f(0) mode, that regular wattage gave a more pronounced initial flavor, but didn't have much of an aftertaste, whereas the f(0) lingered a bit.
Less muted so better I would say. I just started playing around with the different options using a flavor I have used for a long time to try and dial in a sweet spot. I haven't found it yet
To me the flavor seems better in f(0) over regular wattage mode. I got a lot fuller flavor from my Aspire Mulus, a mod I'm not overly fond of, than so far with this but I need to keep playing around. This set up so far seems to be bringing out different flavor notes from my eliquid and muting others, kinda changing the profile, Dinner Lady Lemon Tart.
Yessss, I have noticed this as well. I also get this from my Taifun GTIV. It brings juices that I wasn't fond of, back into the rotation again. Lemme know if you find something that works.Less muted so better I would say. I just started playing around with the different options using a flavor I have used for a long time to try and dial in a sweet spot. I haven't found it yet
This is with RDL vaping though, not sure about MTL.
Also, I'd be interested in seeing how much faster you go through juice at 500 Hz over say 20 Hz.Ok just tried it
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
