Homemade Snus with Rustica Tobacco Leaf

[Vaporer]

exo,
I've read many time that Oomph snus really has a "kick".
Here is the ingredients listing from their site.

Contents: Absolutely Purified tobacco
Sweetners: Maltitol E966
Xylitol E967
AcesulfamK E951
Fillers: Avicel, Vegetable Fibers E460
Softener: Glycerol E422
PH Regulating Agent: Baking Soda E500

Notice that baking soda is their pH adjuster?

 

[exogenesis]

Aye Bagazo, certainly would be good to get some pro chemist's input, but
I guess there aren't any here that are also interested in snus.



Vaporer, yes, the Oomph ingredient list has been posted a few times here in the snus-side,
E500 baking-soda = sodium bicarbonate = sodium hydrogen carbonate,
although I notice that several 'sensible' web-sources use it synonymously with
'sodium carbonate' which could be (mis?)construed as disodium carbonate.

Not sure what you're getting at ?, it certainly means those snus can't be
above pH8.3 (unless other alkali is added), and almost certainly significantly less than that.
It's just an acidity regulator to keep the pH from dropping too low, whatever value that is deemed to be.

We were aiming at a pH (for the rustica snus) way above what baking soda could achieve,
especially given that there's possibly 10x the nic. in rustica.


My own feeling about these purified (dry) snus is the bulking agents Avicel (pure microcrystalline cellulose)
= 'Vegetable Fibers' (more like wood fibres)
implies that the amount of 'Absolutely Purified tobacco' (whatever that is) wouldn't
constitute a volume usable as a snus portion & quite possibly may even only be there only as flavouring.

Are Oomph & 'Energy' Snus (same underlying ingredient list) truly 'sythetic snus',
i.e. is the nicotine re-added after everything has been 'sanitised' ?
If so I wonder if the minor alkaloids & MOAIs (or whatever else) are missing completely,
& you might as well just use a bit of e-liquid on the tongue.

Certainly this would explain their fast action, if 3 or 6 mg of freebase nicotine is added as an
ingredient & can diffuse away from the bulking fibres quicker than with standard snus.


Would be nice to know the proportions of cleaned-tobacco to bulker fibre,
and whether the other good stuff has gone completely.
Don't think they're likely to tell us though.

 

[Bagazo]

Exo, are you using a ph meter or just doing the calcs on paper?

The reason I ask is because if my theory of nic protonation and unprotonation is somewhere in the ballpark that would mean that if you add the alkili to the tobacco paste (tobacco flour and water) a bit at a time you would see a stepped rise in ph from whatever it is at the begining.

In theory, at least, once it goes past a ph of 7 you should have most if not all the nic freebased.

Reason being that the alkili is forming salts with free acids in the tobacco and also stripping the acid from the nic salt and forming its own salts and leaving the freebase nic. Now how much would 17mg/g nic in freebase form affect the ph of this glop.

I'm thinking that it would not rise the ph very much so maybe 8.3 works.

If you are doing it on paper I would think (don't quote me on this) that you may be figuering out how much alkili you need to add to a mix with a ph of x to get it to a ph of y but you really don't know how many different salts or how much of each is in the tobacco.

This is where a real chemist could say "you will only get all the nic freebased if the ph of the solution reaches a ph of x.x" or "Bagazo you get a gold star and a pat on the head."

I would prefer #2 but would accept #1 with open arms just for the sake of knowing.

As to the bulking agent in the oomph I would think that they have gone the cig route.

Remember seeing somewhere that they extract the WTE and adjust whatever needs adjusting to make a consistent "mother liquer". Then they make a type of paper with the leaf (vegetable fiber) that gets coated with the "mother liquer" and shredded. This offers consistent nic and flavor to the cigs.

It should have all the alkaloids. Could also be that it is easier to freebase the nic in a complete liquid rather then a thick paste and then add it back to the vegetable fiber.

 

[Vaporer]

I found this long ago when we were all into the freebasing of eliquid.
It addresses the pH of oral adsorption on page 18.
A handbook on drug and alcohol abuse ... - Google Books

 

[Vaporer]

Bagazo,
Back in DVaps original thread "are we getting it" He addressed the pronated nic in the extraction to make WTA. Long thread, searching "pronated" should find it.

 

[exogenesis]

It's both Bagazo,

"only get all the nic freebased if the ph of the solution reaches a ph of x.x"
- see first page of this thread for the graphs.

"add the alkali to the tobacco paste (tobacco flour and water) a bit at a time you would see a stepped rise in ph"
- see page 5 for the values



I think you're right about Oomph being 'made like a cig', hopefully you're also
right that all the baccy goodness is kept, rather than just added nic.

Just thought is the Oomph et al 'Absolutely Purified Tobacco' same as Tobacco Absolute,
i.e. literally just for flavour ?

I've always wondered what 'the pH of smoke' really meant, if anything, V,
always seemed a bit of a stretch to me, although it's endemic in the literature.

Must measure the pH of those old snus I've got, and for Oomph as well.

 

[Bagazo]

Don't think I was clear enough but my theory is that you can have 100% freebase nic (not 100% nic) in a solution of say a ph of (7 + whatever difference the freebase nic causes).

The reason being that the alkili is converting the nic salt to alkili salt and freebase nic. If you could stop adding the alkili as soon as all the acid is used up you should have all the nic in freebase form in a practically neutral solution.

Not real world mind you just in theory.

 

[exogenesis]

Nice idea but that was the point of the stuff on the previous page about equilibria
& the graphs on the first page.

Nic.H(+) + OH(-) <--> Nic (freebase) + H2O
or more simply:
Nic.(freebase) + H(+) <--> Nic.H(+)
same thing, pH is all to do with H2O dissociating into H+ & OH-,
& the reaction can go both ways, it's reversible.

For a given pH the 'position' of the equilibrium is pushed to a certain point,
where there's a given ratio of nic.++ (diprotonated), nic.+ (singly protonated) &
nic.freebase, the ratios are determined when you force the pH to a given value.

e.g. picking a few value from the graph :
pH 3 = 50% nic.++, 50% nic.+, 0% nic.fb (excess H+ is present, solution is acidic)
pH 5.5 = 0% nic.++, 100% nic.+, 0% nic.fb
pH 7 = 0% nic.++, 90% nic.+, 10% nic.fb (equal H+ & OH-, solution is neutral)
pH 8 = 0% nic.++, 50% nic.+, 50% nic.fb
pH 9 = 0% nic.++, 10% nic.+, 90% nic.fb (excess OH- is present, solution is alkaline)

All this is regardless of how much other stuff like plant solutes are present
(unless some happen to form an insoluble precipatate with nic. at some pH).

 

[Bagazo]

Right I saw that and I also found this:

"Originally Posted by exogenesis
Bebo

Still a somewhat unsure why say pH 8 juice should be 100% free base,
but the proof is in the pudding I guess.

Nicotine won't be protonated by "any proton donor present" when the only proton donor present is water. The protons in water are paired with OH-, and any dissociation into a proton donor (H+) is also going to result in a proton acceptor (OH-) being present. It's a wash.

Also, the dissociation of water into H+ and -OH ions at room temperature is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 parts per billion.. quite small. "


After Vaporer pointed me to the "are we getting it" thread (which I read as it was forming but didn't remember a ph number). Search threw me a term is too common error but I did find the above in the "Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP" thread.

Sounds similar to what I am thinking but can't seem to find the source and Dvap's response really isn't telling me if he is saying if it's right or wrong.

Seeing that you where in between maybe you could shed some light on it.

 

[exogenesis]

Wow, we're on the ball tonight

I understand what you're saying, but it's a difference between
1 : measuring the pH of a pure solution of nicotine freebase (initially in glycol, not water),
and
2 : forcing an aqueous partly (in the above ratios sense) protonated nicotine solution
to a given pH with added alkali in order to force it to be a greater proportion free-base.

The e-liquids are made from freebase nicotine (mostly, a very few have added organic acids)
which at say 36mg/ml would cause a pH of 10.7 (!), if it was in water,
but since it's in glycol (PG or glycerol) the pH meter was reading only pH 8,
because there was no (or very little) water present to be forced to dissociate
to give the H+ / OH- ions, which is what the pH meter measures.

If you take 36mg/ml e-liquid and add an equal amount of distilled water,
the pH meter suddenly reads around 10.5 rather then 8.

That was what was being pointed out by DVap (but probably in a simpler fashion).

Not sure if Vaporer appreciates us wandering off topic too much,
thread contamination !

 

[Vaporer]

Actually, it will eventually point to the answer we need!
Carry on..........

 

[Bagazo]

Thanks for the info. Yeah the problem is that Dvap just gave the answer but I hadn't heard the question.

I understand what you are saying and I do understand that it's a matter of measuring device, solvent and solute.

I must admit that my mind is in extraction mode rather than snus but I don't think we are off topic. It is about getting more zing from the homemade snus. I believe it hinges on the amount of freebase nic and that depends on the ph.

Now given that Oomph uses baking soda to adjust ph it would seem that it could be enough. But we don't really know how.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

V, I got that package yesterday. You're right about the menthol blast, wow. But I think its coolness subdues the nic burn, which is nice. Very good snuff and I really like the grind, I lean toward the finer, drier ones and this one hits the mark. Thanks for the deposit .

That chunk of Rustic seems really dry, did you already toast it or is this the way it comes before further drying? I'm off work this weekend, so I'll be giving the oven a workout on the carbonate and get some snus on the launch pad. I'm thrilled...thanks buddy .

 

[sunset]

Vaporer and All, Ah, maybe there was something positive in my Wifi problems and being down (No!) Maybe you know this, but I'm just seeing on snuffhouse.org that Rustica is sold out at Toque and it was posted 3 days ago. Boy, I would have panicked if I knew that..Snuffhouse.org - Toque - Rustica Bad news and Good news

But, my order arrived today and I just ran and opened the package - I got all 3 pkgs. I ordered. Whew!

Yet they may carry another item-per Roderick- Vietnamese tobacco called "Thuoc Lao", but it could only be sold for snuff blending as I believe it is stronger than "Rustica" Yes, I'm in if he does. Maybe now is a good time to become a member over there and let him know I'd buy some.

Edit: I do see where they plan to have Rustica restocked in July. So that's good news!

 

[Vaporer]

Somehow I missed your post TV. IE has been acting weird...I'm usually use FireFox.
I flushed my system with CCleaner and it seems ok now. Something in the temp files it was reading rather than getting new info I guess.
The rustica is the 10% moisture as it came from Toque. I'll PM you my present liquid formula to add to it so it will be freebased.
I'd bake the chunk for 2hrs at 180*F then toss it in the blender. That should give you a good snus grade grind. The snuff was hand ground before menthol added in a Mortar & Pestle I got from ebay for $14 bucks. Glad you liked it. I like a strong menthol and it has that and a really decent nic hit I think.

sunset, Toque is out of Rustica! Ouch....thought abt getting a couple more 3oz'ers.
I'm good though. The plants are taking off finally.........if they survive the transplant to outdoors. I'll be set sunset. lol There is a US place I had sent Dred. A little higher overall I think, still, if they arent out, might be better than a July post PACTCRAP order.
I'm shooting for everything ordered by June 15th. I'm abt done now.......'If I ordered anything, it would just be because its a good deal or overflow at this point.
Smart for ordering early there kid!
We have a lot of lurkers and I think we helped on the "Rustica Run".

Rustica is listed as the highest nic content of the tobaccos, but that can vary due to region grown in.
Do you have the link you can post here?

 

[sunset]

sunset, Toque is out of Rustica! Ouch....thought abt getting a couple more 3oz'ers.
I'm good though. The plants are taking off finally.........if they survive the transplant to outdoors. I'll be set sunset. lol There is a US place I had sent Dred. A little higher overall I think, still, if they arent out, might be better than a July post PACTCRAP order.
I'm shooting for everything ordered by June 15th. I'm abt done now.......'If I ordered anything, it would just be because its a good deal or overflow at this point.
Smart for ordering early there kid!
We have a lot of lurkers and I think we helped on the "Rustica Run".

Rustica is listed as the highest nic content of the tobaccos, but that can vary due to region grown in.
Do you have the link you can post here?

Here's the link to the discussion at snuffhouse.org: Snuffhouse.org - Toque - Rustica Bad news and Good news

Seems Roderick isn't entirely satisfied with the taste..a few new posts, but others want it.

And, of course, if anyone else wants this and doesn't know, since I know Vaporer knows - Toque's website:
Snuff Store | Over 30 Flavours Available | Toque Snuff if he decides to sell it.

 

[Vaporer]

I emailed Toque abt the Rustica and the Thuoc Lao.
Will post their response.

 

[sunset]

Vaporer, Toque was quick...they have the Thuoc Lao (Vietnamese Tobacco) up for sale now. Price looks higher than the Rustica, but I can't find out how much weight is in a package...maybe it's a pound and larger than the Rustica package? Bet he corrects that info. shortly.

I'm going to research it a bit, but bet I know what I do.
Special Offer Thuoc Lao (Vietnamese Tobacco)

 

[Vaporer]

Roderick answered my email and I have 2 100gm bags on the way.....lol
He said if the demand was high enough he'd post it.
Guess it was ..........

He told me to order the cheapest 100gm economy bags (original) and he'd do the switch for the Thuoc Lao. So, I emailed him the order number once placed.

 

[WerkIt]

Now just a minor question, when heating sodium bicarb to produce sodium carbonate does the whole pie convert?

The REAL question here is why bother to convert it? Go to a grocery store, spend 3 bucks and walk out with 55 ounces of pure soda ash. Just go to the laundry aisle and purchase 'Arm & Hammer All Natural Super Washing Soda.' You can even call the 800 number on the box to confirm it is 100% pure soda ash, if you like.