WTAs versus analogues: Which has more non-nicotine alkaloids?

[Drael]

Okay, a question thats hard for anyone to answer prolly.

I was one of those that found nic only very hard or if not impossible to make workable for me. I just had spiralling tension, the nic releived some craving, but not enough. The WTAs I got from vapelicious worked. Well. They werent as relaxing as analogues, but definatley enough to make it vaping workable as a means to give up.

I did however slip up, really due to just being stupid, and go back to smoking after a few months. Now, I want to get back to vaping and off the cigs.


Only thing is, I wonder, how much non-nicotine alkaloids would these wta's have (vapelicious has three different strengths to confuse the matter). Id just like to know, that what I am vaping, is roughly equal to, or less than the amount of "wta"'s id get from smoking, rather than having alot more of certain chemicals.

The manufacturers themselves couldnt tell me much (probably partly for legal reasons, and partly because they havent yet done full chemical analysis). Its a bit of a fussy area I think generally.

But i would love to use _some_ wta's rather than just nic, and if nessasary dilute it. But to do that, I need some idea of how much non nicotine alkaloids are in a "ciggerette-equivilant" amount of juice. And there are alot of variables too.

I have some "x-tra high" stuff from vapelicious. Id love to know, how far I need to dilute this, to get it most likely around "ciggerette" levels, or less, of the non-nicotine alkaloids. yeah I know, also tobacco itself varies. I just would love a ballpark though.

But its a bit of a bind for me. I know I will need some wtas in order to give up again. I dont really have any other options that will work for giving up (and I do plan to give up, my weaning myself off everything in the mix).

But I just want to make an informed decision basically, about how much non-nicotine alkaloids I ingest.

ATM, I am leaning towards just mixing it down as weakly as I can tolerate and going from there. Or perhaps using occasional snus (which ive never tried), and just vaping nic only. Something like that.

Thanks heaps, from anyone who can give me any helpful advice!

 

[daveesl]

I smoked cigarettes, 2 packs per day, for about 40 years. Luckily, I never had any lung or heart problems due to cigarette smoking. I went from originally using full flavors down to ultra-lights during the final 10 years of smoking. I then learned about the e-cig and never turned back.

Now, I have a neuro-vascular condition called neurogenic sinus bradycardia. Essentially it means that my brain and nervous system don't work well with my heart and vascular system. Essentially, I have very low blood pressure and heart rate, and it doesn't increase naturally. As an example, if i do some work in the yard, my pulse rate might go up to 60, my BP to 100/70. Normal HR is about 40, BP about 90/50 There is no medicine for it, a pacemaker won't work because it is both heart and blood vessels. The answer is a combination of stimulants and vaso-restrictors.

As it happens, nicotine and caffeine are both. So the e-cig actually became a health device for me. I mix my own liquids, so that 1) I know exactly what is in it and 2) so I can maintain a constant taste quality. I make a lot of different flavors (ONLY for myself and wife-sorry no desire to sell stuff).

I purchase 60 mg nic PG. I then dilute that down with a combination of 0% PG and 0% VG to a few different concentrates of nic. I purchase ONLY USP, food grade and Kosher liquid. I'm not Jewish, but I figure Kosher puts an extra quality control step in the process that if they screw up there might be someone higher than the FDA looking over the lab's shoulders

My final, unflavored mixes are done at a 75%PG/25%VG level. Nic concentrates are 16, 11, 6 and 0. My wife is also an ex-smoker, she enjoys the flavors of the e-cig, but doesn't want the nic, so she gets the 6 and 0 levels. (sometimes there needs to be a slight amount of nicotine to bring out a flavor). I do the 16 and 11 levels, depending on how I feel. For flavors, I use a combination. All are USP-food grade. In some cases, I'll just buy the "off the shelf" food flavorings at my grocery store. Lemonade is made simply by adding in lemon juice to PG/VG. Most cases, I'll purchase flavors from a couple of vendors. My mix levels run from about 1.5% to 5% of the total volume (flavor to PG/VG).

When I first started vaping, I began at 24mg. Over a period of about a month or so, I slowly reduced that number down to 12 or below. I did this by buying commercial liquids. I tried dilution, but it pretty much just wrecked the flavor (take a 24mg cherry, cut by 1/2, yuck).

So, if the old ticker or BP needs a boost, I use a 12mg clearomizer and drink a Mountain Dew. Normally, I do 6mg and drink either Coke or Mtn. Dew. Oh, I tried the non-sugar drinks, really liked Pepsi-max, but after you down a few of those each day it made me sick as a dog. Luckily, the sugar content doesn't really affect my weight, as I've weighed about 200 lbs for the last 25+ years.

So don't necessarily stick with the high-octane nic, slowly bring it down over a period of a month or more.

dave

 

[snork]

Only thing is, I wonder, how much non-nicotine alkaloids would these wta's have (vapelicious has three different strengths to confuse the matter). Id just like to know, that what I am vaping, is roughly equal to, or less than the amount of "wta"'s id get from smoking, rather than having alot more of certain chemicals.

That's a rough question, for sure, since we vape so differently than we smoke and there are so many other variables. What is absorbed into your body is completely different than mine and is compounded by the fact that there is no "cigarette equivalent" dose of anything in vaping. My only suggestion is to re-contact the manufacturers and try to have an extended discussion with them about the topic. My guess is the end result will still be vague, because when you think about it even 24mg nicotine means little - if you chain-vape it it's one thing if you take a toot every half an hour it's another.

 

[filter]

I smoked cigarettes, 2 packs per day, for about 40 years. Luckily, I never had any lung or heart problems due to cigarette smoking. I went from originally using full flavors down to ultra-lights during the final 10 years of smoking. I then learned about the e-cig and never turned back.

Now, I have a neuro-vascular condition called neurogenic sinus bradycardia. Essentially it means that my brain and nervous system don't work well with my heart and vascular system. Essentially, I have very low blood pressure and heart rate, and it doesn't increase naturally. As an example, if i do some work in the yard, my pulse rate might go up to 60, my BP to 100/70. Normal HR is about 40, BP about 90/50 There is no medicine for it, a pacemaker won't work because it is both heart and blood vessels. The answer is a combination of stimulants and vaso-restrictors.

As it happens, nicotine and caffeine are both. So the e-cig actually became a health device for me. I mix my own liquids, so that 1) I know exactly what is in it and 2) so I can maintain a constant taste quality. I make a lot of different flavors (ONLY for myself and wife-sorry no desire to sell stuff).

I purchase 60 mg nic PG. I then dilute that down with a combination of 0% PG and 0% VG to a few different concentrates of nic. I purchase ONLY USP, food grade and Kosher liquid. I'm not Jewish, but I figure Kosher puts an extra quality control step in the process that if they screw up there might be someone higher than the FDA looking over the lab's shoulders

My final, unflavored mixes are done at a 75%PG/25%VG level. Nic concentrates are 16, 11, 6 and 0. My wife is also an ex-smoker, she enjoys the flavors of the e-cig, but doesn't want the nic, so she gets the 6 and 0 levels. (sometimes there needs to be a slight amount of nicotine to bring out a flavor). I do the 16 and 11 levels, depending on how I feel. For flavors, I use a combination. All are USP-food grade. In some cases, I'll just buy the "off the shelf" food flavorings at my grocery store. Lemonade is made simply by adding in lemon juice to PG/VG. Most cases, I'll purchase flavors from a couple of vendors. My mix levels run from about 1.5% to 5% of the total volume (flavor to PG/VG).

When I first started vaping, I began at 24mg. Over a period of about a month or so, I slowly reduced that number down to 12 or below. I did this by buying commercial liquids. I tried dilution, but it pretty much just wrecked the flavor (take a 24mg cherry, cut by 1/2, yuck).

So, if the old ticker or BP needs a boost, I use a 12mg clearomizer and drink a Mountain Dew. Normally, I do 6mg and drink either Coke or Mtn. Dew. Oh, I tried the non-sugar drinks, really liked Pepsi-max, but after you down a few of those each day it made me sick as a dog. Luckily, the sugar content doesn't really affect my weight, as I've weighed about 200 lbs for the last 25+ years.

So don't necessarily stick with the high-octane nic, slowly bring it down over a period of a month or more.

dave

coke and mtn dew are low in caffeine and high in high fructose corn syrup. i would recommend low carb energy drinks and/or using eliquid with caffeine in it. since u diy, u can either add caffeine anhydrous powder to you liquid or you can get it liquid form and add that. i vape caffeine all a lot and i think its excellent.

 

[filter]

I smoked cigarettes, 2 packs per day, for about 40 years. Luckily, I never had any lung or heart problems due to cigarette smoking. I went from originally using full flavors down to ultra-lights during the final 10 years of smoking. I then learned about the e-cig and never turned back.

Now, I have a neuro-vascular condition called neurogenic sinus bradycardia. Essentially it means that my brain and nervous system don't work well with my heart and vascular system. Essentially, I have very low blood pressure and heart rate, and it doesn't increase naturally. As an example, if i do some work in the yard, my pulse rate might go up to 60, my BP to 100/70. Normal HR is about 40, BP about 90/50 There is no medicine for it, a pacemaker won't work because it is both heart and blood vessels. The answer is a combination of stimulants and vaso-restrictors.

As it happens, nicotine and caffeine are both. So the e-cig actually became a health device for me. I mix my own liquids, so that 1) I know exactly what is in it and 2) so I can maintain a constant taste quality. I make a lot of different flavors (ONLY for myself and wife-sorry no desire to sell stuff).

I purchase 60 mg nic PG. I then dilute that down with a combination of 0% PG and 0% VG to a few different concentrates of nic. I purchase ONLY USP, food grade and Kosher liquid. I'm not Jewish, but I figure Kosher puts an extra quality control step in the process that if they screw up there might be someone higher than the FDA looking over the lab's shoulders

My final, unflavored mixes are done at a 75%PG/25%VG level. Nic concentrates are 16, 11, 6 and 0. My wife is also an ex-smoker, she enjoys the flavors of the e-cig, but doesn't want the nic, so she gets the 6 and 0 levels. (sometimes there needs to be a slight amount of nicotine to bring out a flavor). I do the 16 and 11 levels, depending on how I feel. For flavors, I use a combination. All are USP-food grade. In some cases, I'll just buy the "off the shelf" food flavorings at my grocery store. Lemonade is made simply by adding in lemon juice to PG/VG. Most cases, I'll purchase flavors from a couple of vendors. My mix levels run from about 1.5% to 5% of the total volume (flavor to PG/VG).

When I first started vaping, I began at 24mg. Over a period of about a month or so, I slowly reduced that number down to 12 or below. I did this by buying commercial liquids. I tried dilution, but it pretty much just wrecked the flavor (take a 24mg cherry, cut by 1/2, yuck).

So, if the old ticker or BP needs a boost, I use a 12mg clearomizer and drink a Mountain Dew. Normally, I do 6mg and drink either Coke or Mtn. Dew. Oh, I tried the non-sugar drinks, really liked Pepsi-max, but after you down a few of those each day it made me sick as a dog. Luckily, the sugar content doesn't really affect my weight, as I've weighed about 200 lbs for the last 25+ years.

So don't necessarily stick with the high-octane nic, slowly bring it down over a period of a month or more.

dave

i would get wta liquid in a variety of strengths and from a variety of vendors and see what works for you as is and diluted

 

[Drael]

That's a rough question, for sure, since we vape so differently than we smoke and there are so many other variables. What is absorbed into your body is completely different than mine and is compounded by the fact that there is no "cigarette equivalent" dose of anything in vaping. My only suggestion is to re-contact the manufacturers and try to have an extended discussion with them about the topic. My guess is the end result will still be vague, because when you think about it even 24mg nicotine means little - if you chain-vape it it's one thing if you take a toot every half an hour it's another.

Well I tried to have an extended conversation with the owner of aromaejuice, and while they were very patient and polite, they declined to make any specific statement about quantity, saying that it varied across strains etc (Which it does), but I think this lack of specificity is down to a) legal implications b) nobody in the WTA business has done the whole relatively expensive GCMS on their kit. Of course theyll probably need to if US regulations come in anyway.

And, vapelicious, well hard to get hold of that dude sometimes, let alone have an extended conversation. I mean he's helpful, even does custom flavours, but not always easy to get hold of (given his shop front goes down regularly, its sort of something I expected anyway).

Im the sort of person that with the x-hi strength WTAs, with 24mg nic from vapelicious, I probably vape less than or equal to the amount I smoked. I tend to take a couple of puffs, and then stick it away for awhile. I guess if I lowered the WTAs, or the nic, i may end up smoking more of the stuff anyway!

Main thing is I get off the analogues. But id love to be a puritan about my health where possible, and make the informed choice. I think ill be really waiting awhile yet for more info about the composition and concentration of wta e-liquids probably.

 

[Drael]

i would get wta liquid in a variety of strengths and from a variety of vendors and see what works for you as is and diluted

Thats probably more or less what ill do. Start with WTA from both vendors, diluted at about 1/3 to 2/3s normal nic only and see how that goes. Raise it up if I need to. I mean full strength WTA works well for me, but would be awesome if I can manage with a more minimal level too. Ive heard at least some people dont mind a 1/2 and 1/2 type mix, so some level of dilution may well be workable, from an addiction POV.

 

[radiokaos]

Well I tried to have an extended conversation with the owner of aromaejuice, and while they were very patient and polite, they declined to make any specific statement about quantity, saying that it varied across strains etc (Which it does), but I think this lack of specificity is down to a) legal implications b) nobody in the WTA business has done the whole relatively expensive GCMS on their kit. Of course theyll probably need to if US regulations come in anyway.

And, vapelicious, well hard to get hold of that dude sometimes, let alone have an extended conversation. I mean he's helpful, even does custom flavours, but not always easy to get hold of (given his shop front goes down regularly, its sort of something I expected anyway).

Im the sort of person that with the x-hi strength WTAs, with 24mg nic from vapelicious, I probably vape less than or equal to the amount I smoked. I tend to take a couple of puffs, and then stick it away for awhile. I guess if I lowered the WTAs, or the nic, i may end up smoking more of the stuff anyway!

Main thing is I get off the analogues. But id love to be a puritan about my health where possible, and make the informed choice. I think ill be really waiting awhile yet for more info about the composition and concentration of wta e-liquids probably.

Until there are long term studies of Ecigs in general you will have a hard time trying to find a supplier offer any exact details.

There are too many unknowns when it comes to absorption, delivery methods, and how we metabolize alkaloids to give an exact answer. Something Which you left out from our email exchange.

Since you are trying to be a "puritan about your health" I would not feel right selling you eliquid with or without WTA.

May I suggest that if you want to live a healthier lifestyle that you should visit Healthy Living - Good Health: Mind, Body, and Spirit. While they might not be able to give you all the correct answers you will be on a fast track to living life as a "puritan".

 

[Drael]

Until there are long term studies of Ecigs in general you will have a hard time trying to find a supplier offer any exact details.

There are too many unknowns when it comes to absorption, delivery methods, and how we metabolize alkaloids to give an exact answer. Something Which you left out from our email exchange.

Fair enough. I did not delibrately leave out details of our exchange, there I beleive I mentioned something vaguely to this effect earlier in the thread. But totally relevant point. Its a hard thing to judge.

Your exchange with me was cordial, and you provided as much information as you felt comfortable/certain about. I have no complaint about that, you gave me plenty of your time!

I only wish there was more information in general.

Since you are trying to be a "puritan about your health" I would not feel right selling you eliquid with or without WTA.

May I suggest that if you want to live a healthier lifestyle that you should visit Healthy Living - Good Health: Mind, Body, and Spirit. While they might not be able to give you all the correct answers you will be on a fast track to living life as a "puritan".

Well as much as I practically can be of course, while still managing to give up ciggerettes (re: puritan). Ive tried cold turkey before, inhalers, nicobrevin, patches, even nic only e-cigs were hard to give up on.

Its a very addictive drug, ciggerettes, and its important for my health I give up those.

Ive given up alcohol and other drugs with far greater ease.

I am already eating a paleo diet, and getting regular exercise which I am increasing as my fitness increases, regarding a "healthy" lifestyle.

But that doesnt count for as much when I am still smoking!!! (even though I have limited it to about 8 a day ATM, and have a tapering plan too, to take it down further).

Anyway point being, that its obviously a balance.

I need to give up my addiction as well, via an efficacious means. Thats the practical reality.

The percentages of people who successfully give up smoking, within the general population, are similar to the same numbers for "coke", which is one of the most addictive drugs there are.

A "just stop" approach is highly statistically/practically ineffective for both substances. What is needed is approaches like tapering, and lower level replacements. And yes, thats not "puritan", but it is intelligent and pratical. Thats where the e-fluids come in.

To that end, I am merely trying to gather as much data as practically possible, about what I will be vaping etc, and giving it some serious thought, before I begin vaping again.

I still need an effective way to give up. Id just like to make as healthy as possible, with whatever data or thought I can give it (ie within whatever constraints exist).

No doubt however its _much_ healthier than smoking, but that doesnt mean I shouldnt further consider my choices, even though I dont plan on regularly vaping forever either (Ill be tapering the nic and WTA in that too).

Again, you were nothing but generous with your time, and scrupulous and helpful in our exchange Thanks for that!

There is just a serious limit to what is known, as you say. And for me, its also a balance with what will get me off ciggerettes (and i know wta's work for that, unlike everything else).

So, thats okay, ill just make my choices with what little is known, and using reason to guess the gaps.

There is no doubt in my mind that vaping is THE way out of smoking (for me, and in general), and that WTA's are the most useful component of this. So that has to be a part of the plan, for this to work for me.

Its an intelligent step down approach.

Ill probably end up using a 1/3 or 1/2 dilution, or whatever smaller dilution works for me, to quell the cravings - and if not, ill just taper that over time. I am not a chain vaper anyway, I probably vape equal to, or even less than I smoke. Whatever gets me off the analogues really, but if I can factor in some extra health consideration thats a bonus.

Ive also given some thought to flavourings and bases. I am not looking at WTAs in particular, just as a part of the whole picture.

I hope that helps clear up my goals

 

[Drael]

Oh, heres a study in new zealand re: nicotine absorbtion from the ruyan model:

The Ruyan (nicotine) e-cigarette

I know its not WTA, but I thought you might like this. It shows that a commercial ciggerette smoked, gives 0.1mg nicotine absorbed per puff, whereas the 16mg cartomizers give 0.053mgs, so about half.

(Totally speculating, but if WTAs are similarly absorbed, _big if_, but then even if they are extra concentrated in the fluid, its probably still equal or less than ciggerettes, per puff.

This is interesting food for thought either way - actually the more I think about this, the more I think its likely we are getting less of everything in e-cigs, nic & wta)

Because nicotine containing e-cigs, or e-fluids, at least for local commercial sale, rather than personal importation (which is fully legal), are regarded here in NZ as medicines, due to existing laws on NRTs, ruyan have put it onto themselves, to jump through those hoops, and apply as an official and sanctioned medicine.

Thats where this study comes from. They have also analysed the level of nitrosamines (which are 100% equivilant to NRTs apparently, and low enough to have no real effect whatsoever)..

Not sure how far the process they are, but they are certainly making strides, and getting research done. I am sure alot will come out of this application process & its study, that the e-cig community in general can talk about regarding safety and health (so far, its looking very good, as youd expect).