Which mods have absolute DC Output like ProVari?

[Thrasher]

. I could see a difference if the device doing PWM doesn't pre-regulate the voltage being modulated, which would be the cheapest way to do things.

and that is exactly whats happening, on some of the scope tests you can clearly see the lack of filtering on some of the cheaper devices as they produce a very noticeable 0-6v square wave. other devices not so much but there is still a jumping line. watching the latest lambo 6 tests from busardo showed they did a nice job on the regulation and filtering as well

 

[dam718]

I agree Thrasher... If L-Rider can work out the bugs where the device fires low intermittently, that looks to be a pretty nice mod. I like everything about it, other than that little bug... I need something that's gonna fire where I set it to every time...

 

[Thrasher]

Another consideration is easy "availabilty" of the mod and the "customer service/repair service" record of the manufacturer. Provape's customer service is already proven to be excellent. Provari's are easily available and can reach your home within 3 - 4 days after you place your order. Provape will also repair your Provari for as long as you own it (theoretically forever) and have it returned to you good as new within a weeks time.

Sounds like there is a long waiting list for these other mods being considered. And if that is true, how reliable will that manufacturer be in doing repairs if needed, and how long will it take them to complete repairs and return the mod?

Evolv had trouble with keeping up with doing repairs to the Darwin and producing new models simultaneously from what I understand and ended up discontinuing it to work on other projects. Historically, new companies often struggle to manufacture issue-free products: for example the "Stallion" VV/VW mod was a monster of a USA made PV on paper using the same chip from Evolv, but had early production issues and the company has stopped selling them indefinitely until they can get the bugs worked out. The Stallion - Advanced Personal Vaporizer - Mod - APV | Texas Select Vapor

The Stallion APV

LOl I dont think they even make the DNA 12 anymore, the stallion has been stalled for around a year now and was long forgotten by anyone interested.

at the same time the robustness of the DNA 20 is well proven, by the countless number of mods and modders using it successfully.
(and Evolve has hinted the Darwin 2 may be over the horizon) just because the first ones had problems doesnt mean the company has given up trying. Even then they did stand behind the product and fix them.

as for all these companies being unproven, time will tell, provape didnt just fall from the sky with a proven track record, yet people took a chance and let them prove it.
and the other companies that are promising to stand behind their product deserve a chance as well, the Semovar, futura, lavatube and several others are coming with a 1 year warranty and so far Svoe mesto has stood behind their product 100%. so has volcano to some degree. Choices are good for the consumer and force companies to not stagnate, the phone wars, the CPU wars, the video card wars, if others didnt stand up and challenge the leaders nothing would ever change.

now the New DNA 30 is around the corner
the 30 watt lambo is being redesigned as we speak
the aerovapes Z- 30+ watt VV/VW is almost finished.
times are a changing my friend, no longer are we this tiny little community hoping for something better then an 808d cigalike. sooner or later there will be other reputable companies we can rely on.

 

[Baditude]

...as for all these companies being unproven, time will tell, provape didnt just fall from the sky with a proven track record, yet people took a chance and let them prove it.
and the other companies that are promising to stand behind their product deserve a chance as well, the Semovar, futura, lavatube and several others are coming with a 1 year warranty and so far Svoe mesto has stood behind their product 100%. so has volcano to some degree. Choices are good for the consumer and force companies to not stagnate, the phone wars, the CPU wars, the video card wars, if others didnt stand up and challenge the leaders nothing would ever change.

times are a changing my friend, no longer are we this tiny little community hoping for something better then an 808d cigalike. sooner or later there will be other reputable companies we can rely on.

No argument with the above. I was speaking about TODAY and the present. If buying one of the newer mods from a newer company, you MAY or MAY NOT get the availabilty and customer service which are virtually guaranteed by Provape. Proven track record vs potential.

My point in bringing up the Stallion was at the time, it was to be the latest "Provari Killer". We all know how that usually turns out.

 

[Thrasher]

I agree with you there man, first I wish people would give up on the whole "provari killer" lingo, you never hear about this or that becoming the new Twist killer lol.

I still like the provari and have nothing but good things with my experience but I do see both sides of the coin, provape has proven themselves but they have also shown their reluctance to give people the features they ask for, so other companies will step into give those people what they want. plenty of people do buy them, but theres still plenty more that wont.

this mirrors the whole Iphone war. (I dont have either of these phones and nothing against them just an example) : they claim if they dont include it you dont need it, they sell plenty of them yet samsung constantly keeps adding in requested features and is easily 10X the sales of the iphone.

my whole argument is no matter what they offer you cant just stagnate. will provari or provape die off? doubt it. they will always be ol reliable. but even "ol reliable" companies have to change to the markets (see: rollerblades epic failure), and personally if I was making decisions at provape i would get off the golf course and make sure i smacked those other companies down before they get that chance to prove they can do it too.
theres a new breed of vapors and an ever expanding selection of devices, and someone will be happy to give people what they want.

they dont even have to touch the original, call it the classic or something. but do something lol, I do find it kinda arrogant to call a new tube engraving an upgraded model.
some of these latest products are proving they can keep up. if the companies do in fact stand behind them. its on like donkey kong lol

 

[WidowsSon]

Not sure where to start.... I think there's some confusion. There are no constant current as you called them, mods other than mechanicals which will give you your battery voltage. Not saying they couldn't be made, just not aware of anyone using other methods (linear regulators apposed to switching or PDM) to control voltage. It wouldn't be efficient.

the VV mods are all PDM (In case of confusion, that's Pulse Duration Modulation as apposed to Pulse Density Modulation). I realize that some reviews show what seems to be a straight line on the oscilloscope, but this is because the resolution of their scope cannot see the frequency or duration of the duty cycle. If you had a better scope, or set it to a higher resolution you would see the same rise and fall of the duty cycle. It's also possible they use an inductor/caps to filter the output and remove the pulse wave.

I agree with another poster, the heating element/wire would in no way be able to react fast enough to determine a difference at a said frequency... I don't know what that said frequency is, but I would bet that it's no higher than 100hz. (that would be a very safe bet)

As far as the 33hz frequency goes, I would also bet that's ok, but that's another conversation. All I'm saying is 800hz is probably overkill. Nothing wrong with overkill though, most of the things I design are such.

either way, anything after said frequency or X frequency is just marketing...

Welding is not the best example, I could see how that could effect a weld as the arc would react a hell of a lot faster than the metal coil in a mod... I can watch a metal coil go from glowing to cold with my eyes and almost time it with a watch, so I doubt anything running at 33hz could be noticed.

The light bulbs in your house (standard bulbs) run at 120hz and the filament in those can't react fast enough for you to notice them flickering, so there is an example that is close to the coil in our mods.

Have fun, keep vaping.

 

[dam718]

Perhaps I should rename the thread (If I can?) to flat line DC output.

There's not much argument from me that all APV's are using some kind of modulation, but there are definitely mods out there that do it far better, with regard to filtering the output so you only get the set voltage. The list I am compiling are those devices. The ones that "Do it better" than the other guys.

I haven't seen the output of a Nivel chip, so I am taking some folks at their word. But I have seen the output of a ProVari, eVic, iTaste MVP, iTaste VV, and DNA-20 chip. And while yes, they have some modulation (some more than others), they never fire above the set voltage, which tells me they are at least using dynamic low pass filtering to prevent the wave form from ever going above a certain point.

BTW, adding iTaste VV V3 to the OP

 

[dam718]

I guess you can't edit the original post after so many days... So... Here is an updated list:

1)ProVape ProVari
2)JoyeTech eVic
3)L-Rider Lambo 6.0 (Buggy for now, doesn't always fire at set voltage)
4)iTaste MVP Series
5)iTaste VV Series
6)evolve DNA-20 Mods
7)SvoeMestro Semovar (Nivel)
8)Nivel Mods

 

[WidowsSon]

dam718, It's ok that the thread has evolved, and people have learned from it, but the OP does not imply "flat line DC output" whatever that means... I'm pretty sure I know what you are implying so we'll move on.

There's not much argument from me that all APV's are using some kind of modulation

The Original Post would argue with that which is why I posted. You make it seem like I'm coming from nowhere with the explanation.

And while yes, they have some modulation (some more than others)

You are either using PDM/PWM or not... no grey area here.

they never fire above the set voltage, which tells me they are at least using dynamic low pass filtering to prevent the wave form from ever going above a certain point.

active low pass filter? (see below)

How they do it, I havn't seen the circuit or parts, I'm sure someone has torn one apart on here, all I need is a pic of the IC's and you can figure the rest out, no rocket science here.

You can easily recover an analog waveform from PDM with passive filters, but I doubt that's how they do it. There are IC Adjustable Voltage Regulators.. in fact the following circuit is pretty neat...

Control an LM317T with a PWM signal | EDN

It's a voltage reg. that can be adjusted with a potentiometer (normally), but instead of using it that way, you give the pot inputs the output from a PWM signal (which is the battery voltage PWM'd). The output is monitored and fed back to the IC and the filter which is fed back to the IC. This results in a nice analog (translate to flat line) output.

only handles 1.5a max, but I'm sure a similar IC exists.

 

[WidowsSon]

Not trying to be a ....., but adding fluff to incorrect information doesn't help anyone who is learning from these threads, and just spreads more crap around.

 

[nvmedjpain]

Does the Reo vv qualify to be on this list?

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 4

 

[UncleChuck]

ITYM 33.3 KHz. MHz would be a radio transmitter.

Other than possibly causing static on radio reception (due to higher frequencies generated by the switching spikes), or how accurately the PWM is controlled, there's no rational reason for a difference between PWM and voltage controlled sources - the coil just can't change temperature that fast. Read up on RMS power if you want more understanding.

All of this reminds me of audiophoolery, with 0 gauge litz wire speaker cables, $3000 power cords, and light hitting the speakers affecting the sound. Really, it doesn't make any real difference on that basis - it's all in your mind. Any difference would be due to how closely the PWM/voltage is regulated. I could see a difference if the device doing PWM doesn't pre-regulate the voltage being modulated, which would be the cheapest way to do things.

I would have to respectfully disagree. The "rattlesnake" sound of a rough PWM is audible proof the coil is not remaining at a consistent temperature. While I doubt the temp is cycling up and down as fast as the current is being switched, there is some obvious "secondary" cycle going on with the temp, with the rattlesnake as proof.

I thought I was alone in tasting a very significant difference between the choppy PWM mods, and the smooth PWM mods or straight-voltage devices until I mentioned it awhile back here on ECF and had several folks agree with me. Overall I'm personally not a fan of the Provari, but I have great respect for the way it vapes compared to things like a Vamo or Zmax. With cartos its less pronounced, but with coil-on-wick devices like clearos I can notice a huge difference. Either way the vapor is harsher, "thinner" feeling, and hotter, but still with less vapor.

For example, I can take a carto-tank, throw it on a mech with a full battery and get a certain quality of vape. I can take that same carto-tank, throw it on a rough-PWM mod, and it does not matter what voltage setting I put it to, NEVER matches the vape of the mech (or other, much flatter signaled devices) When pumping the voltage up to match the vapor production and flavor of the mech, once the vapor and flavor is the same, then the heat is too high and getting harsh. Dial it back to where it's smooth and tasty, and the vapor production falls out.

I know exactly what you mean about the ridiculous audiophile tomfoolery that gets sold to people (at crazy high prices no less) Somehow $500 isolation pads between your amp and preamp is going to double your sound quality, yeah right. But I don't think that's a fair comparison to the differences in PWM.

The fact that I can detect the difference proves it to me, I have literally done a "blind taste test" and could instantly detect the 33 chipped device (vamo in this instance) But I understand personal "taste" isn't a reliable method of proof, so I always return to the rattlesnake sound as evidence that SOMETHING "not right" IS happening at the coil. Not right, meaning NOT the same as a flat (for our intents and purposes) output signal. If you can hear a difference (and nobody denies this) than it seems obvious that some with more refined pallets would be able to detect it. Maybe the years and years of craft brew addiction has given me super taste buds, I don't know, but I know I'm not alone in noticing the difference.

 

[UncleChuck]

Not sure where to start.... I think there's some confusion. There are no constant current as you called them, mods other than mechanicals which will give you your battery voltage. Not saying they couldn't be made, just not aware of anyone using other methods (linear regulators apposed to switching or PDM) to control voltage. It wouldn't be efficient.

the VV mods are all PDM (In case of confusion, that's Pulse Duration Modulation as apposed to Pulse Density Modulation). I realize that some reviews show what seems to be a straight line on the oscilloscope, but this is because the resolution of their scope cannot see the frequency or duration of the duty cycle. If you had a better scope, or set it to a higher resolution you would see the same rise and fall of the duty cycle. It's also possible they use an inductor/caps to filter the output and remove the pulse wave.

I agree with another poster, the heating element/wire would in no way be able to react fast enough to determine a difference at a said frequency... I don't know what that said frequency is, but I would bet that it's no higher than 100hz. (that would be a very safe bet)

As far as the 33hz frequency goes, I would also bet that's ok, but that's another conversation. All I'm saying is 800hz is probably overkill. Nothing wrong with overkill though, most of the things I design are such.

either way, anything after said frequency or X frequency is just marketing...

Welding is not the best example, I could see how that could effect a weld as the arc would react a hell of a lot faster than the metal coil in a mod... I can watch a metal coil go from glowing to cold with my eyes and almost time it with a watch, so I doubt anything running at 33hz could be noticed.

The light bulbs in your house (standard bulbs) run at 120hz and the filament in those can't react fast enough for you to notice them flickering, so there is an example that is close to the coil in our mods.

Have fun, keep vaping.

I'm not going to repeat what I just said in my previous post, but I will throw a few more things out there.

Comparing the "frame rate" which our eyes can see with, to the ability of our sense of taste to detect minute differences in flavors, isn't a good comparison.

And you are most likely correct that the coil isn't reacting to every single peak and valley of the signal, but there is some secondary cycle, as the rattlesnake sound proves. Hotter-cooler-hotter-cooler-hotter-cooler, it's a fact the 33 chipped devices make this happen, hence the rattlesnake. Why exactly it's happening I don't care, but it is happening at 33, and not at the 400 or 800 of other devices.

And since the coil is cycling between hot and cold, that HAS to effect vape quality. There is no possible way a coil producing a pretty stable temperature, and a coil producing wildly fluctuating temperatures would vape the same, it just doesn't make any logical sense. Add in the numerous people who can detect the difference, and to my mind that proves the phenomenon to me.

Just other random example of frequency making a difference when you wouldn't think it would, I used to be involved with hobby-level R/C, and the electric vehicles used speed control units which worked by PWM to control the speed of the motor. Lower frequency ESCs would cause choppy acceleration you could "Feel" but they also provided more punch (meaning quicker acceleration times)

The super high frequency ESCs were very smooth driving but didn't offer the punch of the low freq ESCs. No idea what they are doing today with R/C since I haven't been involved for about a decade, but that's just a random example that switching frequency can have effects even if it doesn't seem like it would. It all comes down to the motor's ability to soak up peaks and valleys, just like it's the ability of the coil to soak up peaks and valleys. Obviously many coils cannot properly soak them up, giving a rattlesnake sound, and difference in vape quality for those who can detect it.

 

[UncleChuck]

I forgot to say the coil itself plays a huge role. As I mentioned, it seems to me cartos aren't effected by it as much as commercial coil on wick devices. When using rebuildables with a beefy coil and wick, I've never experienced the rattlesnake, and the vape is nearly as good as a mech or flat signaled device.

I assume having a more beefy wick and coil would increase the ability of the coil to absorb the peaks and valleys, giving a more consistent flat temperature. But those teeny tiny skinny little coils and wicks in many of the commercial devices don't do such a good job.

 

[Mike.S]

I would have to respectfully disagree. The "rattlesnake" sound of a rough PWM is audible proof the coil is not remaining at a consistent temperature.

No. It's a coil. Put DC through a coil and you get a magnetic field. Guess how loudspeakers are made?

 

[UncleChuck]

No. It's a coil. Put DC through a coil and you get a magnetic field. Guess how loudspeakers are made?

Loudspeakers are made with a coil, which moves the cone to produce sound. The sound of a loudspeaker doesn't come from the coil itself. The coil is simply used to move the cone in relation to the basket. Basically a linear motor in effect.

Are you implying the rattlesnake sound is literally just the coil itself producing sound? Not the boiling of juice being heard? Because then even a dry coil would rattlesnake, that doesn't happen.

 

[dam718]

No. It's a coil. Put DC through a coil and you get a magnetic field. Guess how loudspeakers are made?

While it is true that passing DC through a coil will create a magnetic field, it requires that coil be made of a certain type of wire. Magnet wire, to be exact...

When using resistance wire, it creates heat. You ever make a super magnet by wrapping magnet wire around a nail and connecting it to a battery? Did it get hot?

Okay... next... Loudspeakers are using magnet wire, not resistance wire. Connect a battery to a loudspeaker and watch what happens... The speaker cone will full flex to it's point of max excursion and stay there. This is an excellent method to test whether a speaker wire is connected in phase or out of phase... + to + and - to - should make the speaker cone move out, and opposite polarity would make it move in. The reason a speaker makes a sound at all is because the audio signal is A/C (not D/C) which generates rapid changes in the magnetic field, causing the cone of the speaker to vibrate and move air. This air is moving at a specific frequency that excited your ear drum, and viola, you hear a noise. Without a speaker cone, you hear no noise.

The atomizer coil makes no noise at all...

Everything you hear is sizzling juice... Take away the juice and wick, and there is no noise... Just a glowing coil.

 

[dam718]

Does the Reo vv qualify to be on this list?

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 4

Not sure, to be honest... I've never seen the output of a REO VV... Maybe it's out there somewhere...

I'll try to find more information about the output signal, and let you know!

 

[nvmedjpain]

Not sure, to be honest... I've never seen the output of a REO VV... Maybe it's out there somewhere...

I'll try to find more information about the output signal, and let you know!

Thanks.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 4

 

[Mike.S]

While it is true that passing DC through a coil will create a magnetic field, it requires that coil be made of a certain type of wire. Magnet wire, to be exact...

Back to school for you. Really, this is high school physics, and you're wrong.