What is the consensus here on extremely sub ohm builds?
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Can't see the second vid.
On the first vid, I'd agree. When the cell hops up, that's an explosion.
Tapatyped
By the sounds of it, you do not seem to understand
Thermal Runaway.
Thermal runaway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It is one thing for a battery to get hot and explode, destroying itself before releasing most of the energy stored.
Thermal runaway is when a battery gets hot, causing it to loose internal resistance, causing it to release more power, causing it to get hotter, and discharge most of it's energy suddenly
On the contrary.
And I'm not linking wiki to prove it.
Since you edited this in...
It seems you understand the results of a thermal runaway, from a battery perspective. But your explanation is lacking a fact that it's a chemical reaction causing this chain of events.
Tapatyped
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What? Recall? That's just crazy talk man. Its all the users fault every time.
Seriously though, if we were to scale up the incident rates to compare to the 330 million cell phones that cause 40 injuries a year in the US, then the safety of mechs to cellphones is akin to comparing the health benefits of analog smokes to vaping. Its just that bad.
I wouldn't have any issues at all with mechanical mods if manufacturers stepped up and produced good designs, good switches, listed specifications like just about every other electrical product on the planet worth buying does, provided documentation informing customers of the limitations and proper use of their products, but they don't.
The other slap in the face would be the kind of support they offer for their $200+ mods, most not producing replacement parts or offering aftermarket support of any kind. There's not a single manufacturer out there that does its due diligence and until they do they fully deserve everything coming to them.
"Check this out! I made a tube out of a dollar's worth of aluminum and a couple cents of delrin and laser etched an image of Scooby Doo I found online onot it. Gimme a couple hundred bucks!"
"What? "You wanna know how to use it and what its capable of and expecting that information from us?"
"Are you nuts?"
"Just give us a couple hundred bucks and figure it out."
"Look how shiny it is. Two hundred bucks please."
"Oh...you broke a part?"
"Well we don't sell parts. What did you expect paying $200 for tube of steel?
"Maybe Fatdaddy or Fasttech will have a part that fits. But hey we've got this other pipe bomb right here for $300! Wanna buy it?"
"Well its $100 more because it says F.ck on it! Its only $25 more a letter and the exclamation mark is free! Seriously man, its a great deal."
"$300 please."
To this day, right across the board manufacturers are still producing devices that will fire if you set them down on a table, switches that fail into an auto fire state if parts work loose or break, mechs that auto fire or dead short if you screw the wrong atty on them, etc. and on top of all that in practice most of them don't seem to vent safely when things go south but turn into shrapnel or shoot atties like bottle rockets.
Instead of improving their products it seems like they try to come up with new ways to make a new and more dangerous cherry bomb(er)....
Build that low for tc doesn't count right? If they wanted consistent flavor that is what they would do. I've never built below .4 with kanthal and don't see the point of going below maybe .3. We don't have to use mechs and low resistance to go high watts anymore
Umm one of the local vape shops here that just opened, the girl at the counter had only been vaping 3 weeks, knew only about her setup (subox mini) and asked me a bunch of questions about mech mods and higher powered box mods/tanks. I wonder how many people she sold bad setups too.
I actually enjoyed that rant, it pretty much got to the meat of it all.
We are still living in a "no holds bard" environment with our e-cigs, and I'm sad to say it, but we're outgrowing the ability to use that mentality.
The entire industry is going to need to evolve and step up to a more responsible plate.
Where we're headed right now is exactly what the FDA was hoping for. So that they can say "see we told you so" as they slap us with unreasonable regulations.
Trust me on this, if the industry doesn't 'get a grip', big government will do it for us.
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The store doesn't pick the noob and force them to buy.
The noob (for whatever reason) comes inTo the place of business and buys the device on their own.
Example: man walks into a hardware store, buys a hammer and (using it incorrectly) bashes himself in the face.
Who's the idiot?
That's BS.
9 out of 10 people who enter a vape shop, and never vaped before, are being steered 100% on what to buy. In many cases, they are instructed to buy dangerous setups since they have no knowledge of how they function or what to do.
It's funny, but to those of you saying the seller bears no responsibility, then I guess you are all for drug dealers?
Why are people afraid to take responsibility for their own bad choices?
If every shop was responsible for every idiot who got hurt misusing a product there would be no stores.
The responsibility is on the adult user.
You are responsible for your own stupid decisions.
As an adult you already know this.
That's why you abide by the law.
It applies to other areas of life too.
Back on topic:
The new pre made cheapo sub ohm coils and tanks topping the mechs of noobs are the biggest problem.
Skimp on safety, or ignore science and you will eventually fail.
Ethics does have its place in business, whether or not you personally have any. We are ALL collectively responsible for eliminating or reducing harm according to our capacity. Too many people in this world think it is okay to screw over the next person so long as THEY gain something. That doesn't help anyone to think like that, and it certainly doesn't build a strong society.
Drug dealers live by the same ideology. They say "who cares what I do? If I didn't do it, someone else would". While that is obviously true, it doesn't make what they are doing right.
If a seller bears NO responsibility for a buyer, than why do you think buyers win SO MANY lawsuits against sellers? A seller can sell a dangerous product, buyer gets hurt, then sues. The seller can be found at fault, this happens ALL the time.
Pharmacutical companies have settlement accounts setup for when people get sick or die from a specific med. Why would the pharm companies need to do this, if they didn't feel the burden lies on them?
I'm not saying vape shops need to sit down and evaluate each buyer. I'm saying they should at least do the BARE MINIMUM to ensure that the person they are selling high powered devices to at least knows what they are doing.
Also, a vape shop shouldn't sell an outrageously high powered device, with a prebuilt sub ohm coil and high power batteries all designed for blowing massive clouds, to someone who has never vaped before. It is just wrong.
Based on that statement an auto dealership should never sell a high horsepower car to someone as their first vehicle...however that happens more often than you'd think. When that person can't handle the car and they crash and kill someone does the dealership who sold the car get sued? Hell no, the customer made the decision to purchase and drive the car, it's not the dealers fault if they can't handle it properly! Money talks, if someone selling a product has someone on the line they know will buy the product pretty much anything goes at that point. We're talking about ADULTS here, everyone buying a vape is over 18 years of age they're allowed to buy whatever they please and it is NOT up to the establishment selling the product to educate the masses on what is safe or proper.
Sticking with my car example...do you go to the dealership and simply ask for just any car? No, you do the research to figure out what you want and what you should pay and where to get it, if you don't do the research and get screwed you're the one responsible! Everyone knows most dealerships will shine you on forever just to get a sale...and these are purchases for thousands and thousands of dollars.
So what, every dealership is supposed to have an hour long lecture on properly handling the car? EVERYONE for the most part learns to drive the same way and there will be people who will be very careful and never have an accident or get a ticket and on the other side there will be people who throw caution to the wind and die behind the wheel.
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It's obvious by this thread some people aren't interested in protecting vaping at all. Hell some shops don't even understand what they are selling, much less able to educate their customer. I've walked into vape shops and asked for 25 amp 18650s. I get told they have 18650s. They pull out some pos 10 amp battery. I tell them I need 25 amps for my builds. They ask me why does the amp matter? I've seen shop employees build 22 ga builds for customers and not even check them with an ohm meter before sending them out the door blowing clouds on their mech.
Comparing this to buying a car is quite comical. Most people are given driver's ed classes through their school. I don't ever recall going to vaper's ed in high school. Most people test drive the car before buying it. Also to operate a motor vehicle you are required to have a driver's license. If you do not have this license then you shouldn't be on the road according to our laws. By signing for your license you are agreeing to operate whatever vehicle you drive in a safe manner and with in your capabilities. This removes all liability from the dealerships and manufacturers unless accidents were caused by a defect in the basic design of the vehicle. In that case we do hold them liable with lawsuits and recalls. So don't pretend they don't get held liable. I don't remember having to get a license to vape either... Did I miss that part? Is there somewhere I get my cloud chaser's license?
How is a brand new vaper supposed to know that you are selling them a bad set up if it's their first time in a vape shop? Vape shops need to be able to safely introduce consumers into vaping. If they do not then as a industry we are asking for trouble. It is in their best interest to have educated consumers. Educated consumers stay safe and are alive to keep consuming. Also if the explosions and user injuries start mounting the government will step in and regulate it, lawsuits will be won, and shops will close up. A good business practice is to make sure your users are using the product properly and in a safe manner. This avoids regulation and lawsuits coming down on you. They aren't needed if you are doing your job as a business. It's not about what you are legally required to do or ethics. Although if you consider yourself an ethical person you wouldn't let someone knowingly buy something that could cause them potential harm without warning and some education. But hey whatever the FDA and BT is licking their chops right now...
Comparing this to buying a car is quite comical. Most people are given driver's ed classes through their school. I don't ever recall going to vaper's ed in high school. Most people test drive the car before buying it. Also to operate a motor vehicle you are required to have a driver's license. If you do not have this license then you shouldn't be on the road according to our laws. By signing for your license you are agreeing to operate whatever vehicle you drive in a safe manner and with in your capabilities. This removes all liability from the dealerships and manufacturers unless accidents were caused by a defect in the basic design of the vehicle. In that case we do hold them liable with lawsuits and recalls. So don't pretend they don't get held liable. I don't remember having to get a license to vape either... Did I miss that part? Is there somewhere I get my cloud chaser's license?
How is a brand new vaper supposed to know that you are selling them a bad set up if it's their first time in a vape shop? Vape shops need to be able to safely introduce consumers into vaping. If they do not then as a industry we are asking for trouble. It is in their best interest to have educated consumers. Educated consumers stay safe and are alive to keep consuming. Also if the explosions and user injuries start mounting the government will step in and regulate it, lawsuits will be won, and shops will close up. A good business practice is to make sure your users are using the product properly and in a safe manner. This avoids regulation and lawsuits coming down on you. They aren't needed if you are doing your job as a business. It's not about what you are legally required to do or ethics. Although if you consider yourself an ethical person you wouldn't let someone knowingly buy something that could cause them potential harm without warning and some education. But hey whatever the FDA and BT is licking their chops right now...
My device will only fire down to 0.3 ohm and i run 0.5 ohm coils. It's a regulated mod and that gives me some comfort. Still manage a nice amount of vapor.
Smoking is dead
Vaping is the future
The future is now.
Smoking is dead
Vaping is the future
The future is now.
Exactly.
At around 80°C certain exothermic chemical reactions start occurring. This adds heat to the already present heating due to the flow of current through the cell, basic resistance heating. This is the beginning of thermal runaway. If not stopped then the temperature will keep rising, going up faster and faster as the exothermic reactions continue to grow. A byproduct of the high temperatures is the breakdown of some of the material inside the cell, increasing the internal resistance. This causes even more heat. Excess gas is also created from these unwanted reactions and the internal pressure increases.
At about 120°C-130°C the plastic separator between the anode and cathode materials starts to melt. This can cause localized short circuiting, which...you guessed it...causes more heat. Sometimes a huge amount of heat. If this is allowed to continue the cell will eventually vent. If the reactions are happening quickly enough, it can reach the thermal runaway threshold temperature before the vent opens. Then ya' got trouble.
I think this is one of the more honest and true statements I've read on the subject.
Mechanicals have their challenges, but there is also a part of me that is not comfortable letting a chip keep me safe. (electronics do fail, and some chips are of dubious quality in the first place.)
It's probably best to use a vaping tool a "tad" under the specs and not push the envelope with something that is going to be up close to your face.
How many here remember Puresmoker.com?
The Legacy & Prodigy lacked proper venting, like a lot of other mechanical mods, but they no longer exist because a guy stacked batteries bought at Radio Shack.
Electric Cigarette Explodes in Fla. Man's Face - ABC News
Mod lawsuit | E-Cigarette Forum
Personal opinion of course, but it takes a pretty dumb person/company to even think of making mechanical mods in the US. The liability is there, and it's real, even when buyers do stupid.
The Legacy & Prodigy lacked proper venting, like a lot of other mechanical mods, but they no longer exist because a guy stacked batteries bought at Radio Shack.
Electric Cigarette Explodes in Fla. Man's Face - ABC News
Mod lawsuit | E-Cigarette Forum
Personal opinion of course, but it takes a pretty dumb person/company to even think of making mechanical mods in the US. The liability is there, and it's real, even when buyers do stupid.
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I've been doing it for years. I use a 0.1 ohm dual coil as my daily... in a box mod with 2 Li-Mn batts in parallel...
Now, would I recommend it to most people? Absolutely not. I am an experienced enthusiast and know well what I risk. I'm willing to take full responsibility if anything I do goes wrong.
I only recommend low ohms for enthusiasts that know the risk, know their stuff, and are prepared to take full responsibility if something goes wrong.
And for people that are just doing it as a way to quit smoking or are inexperienced... of course not.
Most of the problem lies with inexperience. You have these kids wanting to chase clouds and have no clue about resistance, battery type, watts, volts, etc. They go to YouTube and follow the enthusiast builds and end up messing something up. They don't know battery safety, they don't know how to maintain their device, and they don't know even the basics of electricity. This is where the problem lies... with inexperienced users, not about ohms. Would you advise letting someone who has never drove a motorcycle, to drive a 1200cc sport bike? I think not.
Now, would I recommend it to most people? Absolutely not. I am an experienced enthusiast and know well what I risk. I'm willing to take full responsibility if anything I do goes wrong.
I only recommend low ohms for enthusiasts that know the risk, know their stuff, and are prepared to take full responsibility if something goes wrong.
And for people that are just doing it as a way to quit smoking or are inexperienced... of course not.
Most of the problem lies with inexperience. You have these kids wanting to chase clouds and have no clue about resistance, battery type, watts, volts, etc. They go to YouTube and follow the enthusiast builds and end up messing something up. They don't know battery safety, they don't know how to maintain their device, and they don't know even the basics of electricity. This is where the problem lies... with inexperienced users, not about ohms. Would you advise letting someone who has never drove a motorcycle, to drive a 1200cc sport bike? I think not.
I almost had a near miss and accidentally made a coil once which came out to be just under 1 ohm. Tossed it and made a new one at 2 ohms.
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