Use Anything for a Wick...

[KYFlyer67]

I've read most of the Genesis threads, which is no small feat by the way, and I love the idea of using stainless steel for a wick. So I found and ordered some SS mesh and I oxidized it according to Raidy's instructions. Raidy is simply brilliant by the way, for those of you that aren't aware. Anyway, I built a version of the Genesis atomizer with SS oxidized wick and it has worked very well for me.

But I began to wonder... if you can turn stainless steel mesh into an insulator by simply oxidizing (heating) it, what else can you oxidize. I think almost any metal can be oxidized, but what else can become an effective insulator when oxidized. I was curious about one material in particular - Nichrome wire. If you can turn nichrome wire into an insulator... well then you could use pretty much anything for a wick - UNoxidized SS mesh, nickel mesh, even copper wire. I'm not suggesting that you use any of these materials for a wick. I'm just suggesting that it would be nice and possibly useful if we could use ANY METAL, oxidized or not, as a wick.

So I began experimenting. I figured you could oxidize nichrome wire simply by running current through it. That didn't work - at least not enough to turn the wire into an insulator. So then I tried burning the nichrome wire with a lighter... burn it until it glows, several times, just like you would oxidize SS mesh. That DID work. The nichrome wire became a complete insulator. Just be sure not to oxidize the ends of the nichrome wire - otherwise it won't even conduct from your +,- leads. So then I coiled my oxidated nichrome wire around a rolled up piece of nickel mesh soaked in eliquid. This produced clouds of vapor without shorting the nichrome wire. Same results when I tried this with UNoxidized SS mesh.

Now I just need to make something useful from this discovery. By the way, I have no idea whether or not this will work with Kanthal wire.

 

[roadrash]

I have tried to oxidize the mesh from a reg atty with no luck. As many times I tried the mesh was still conductive.

Wouldn't dry burning a coil do the same as using a lighter? How about a gunked up coil? I'll have to test that.

Did you use nichrome-a or c?

 

[KYFlyer67]

Yes I've also tried to oxidize the nickel mesh from an atty, and while it does turn a pretty blue, it continues conducting no matter how much you burn it.

Dry burning might eventually work, but I had to use a lighter to get my nichrome well oxidized.

Now here's where it gets interesting. I used nichrome 60 (NiCrC) in my test. However, I also have some nichrome 80 (NiCrA). I just tried the nichrome 80 a few minutes ago. It does NOT oxidize. Nichrome 60 works. Nichrome 80 does not. Maybe this has something to do with the iron content of Nichrome 60.

 

[zoiDman]

I’m familiar with Chromium Oxides. But I’m a little confused when you say “Oxidize”. What exactly are you doing to the SS mesh and why?

 

[Stownz]

I'm still trying to fix my broken clearomizers. You amaze me !

 

[zoiDman]

Not sure if these are the alloys you are using...

MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource

MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource

 

[KYFlyer67]

zoiDman,

Thanks for your replies. I'll respond to both of them.

First the easy one. zoiDman says: "Not sure if these are the alloys you are using..." YES. Those are the ones.

And this one. zoiDman says: "I’m familiar with Chromium Oxides. But I’m a little confused when you say “Oxidize”. What exactly are you doing to the SS mesh and why?" I'm not doing anything with SS mesh, at least not in this post. In this post I'm "oxidizing" the nichrome wire. In a thread that has become somewhat legendary on this forum, Raidy described how you can roll stainless steel mesh into a wick and burn it with a lighter (oxidize it). Once oxidized, the SS mesh becomes the wick in a very cool DIY atty he named "Genesis". If you're not familiar with that thread, you can find it here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modders-forum/132663-all-my-mods-part1.html.

So Raidy "oxidized" a stainless steel wick, making it non-conductive. An atomizer wick must be non-conductive. Otherwise it will short out the resistance wire (nichrome or kanthal) coil.

But then again, the wick wouldn't have to be non-conductive if the resistance wire coil is non-conductive. My point is that you can make the resistance wire non-conductive by burning it with a lighter, IF the resistance wire is nichrome 60. Once you make a nichrome 60 resistance wire non-conductive, you can use ANY material as a wick, including conductive metals. This opens up many possibilities.

 

[KYFlyer67]

I'm still trying to fix my broken clearomizers. You amaze me !

Don't be too amazed. In my experience, fixing broken "mizers" can be more difficult than building them from scratch.

 

[zoiDman]

...

So Raidy "oxidized" a stainless steel wick, making it non-conductive. An atomizer wick must be non-conductive. Otherwise it will short out the resistance wire (nichrome or kanthal) coil.
...

Thanks KYFlyer67...

I think I have a better grasp of what is going on and what is trying to be achieved.

It sounds like people want to Electrically Insulate a SS alloy and they have found that under certain conditions, heating it with a flame does what they want. Then they refer to what they have done as "Oxidized" SS. This isn't incorrect but perhaps somewhat misleading.

Here's a little general knowledge about Stainless Steel alloys.

A steel alloy is usually considered to be SS alloy when it contains more than 11% Chromium and more than 3% Nickel. The rest is basically Iron with some trace elements thrown in. It is this high % of Chromium that inhibits Iron Oxides from forming at the surface boundaries. Instead, Chromium Oxides are formed when the alloy is in the presence of Oxygen. These Chromium Oxides form an Extremely thin barrier that protects the alloy from "Rust", Iron Oxide formation, and also provides a barrier that many chemicals can not break.

The entire process is not fully understood but is Naturally Occurring in the presence of Oxygen. Even if the outside surface of the Alloy is scratched, removing the Chromium Oxide barrier, if Oxygen is present, a new layer, Extremely thin layer of new Chromium Oxides will form over the "Virgin" metal alloy. No outside intervention is needed.

But if the SS alloy has any substances on it, such as oils, the Natural cycle of Chromium Oxide formation can be interrupted. (Oils are ubiquitous in the manufacturing process.)

This is where the flame tech comes in that you have read about. By heating the SS alloy with a torch, many surface contaminates can be removed exposing the "Virgin" SS alloy allowing it to come into contact with Oxygen in the atmosphere. The Flame doesn't form the Chromium Oxides, it merely removes some surface impurities that inhibit the formation of Chromium Oxides. Once the surface boundary is free of contaminates, the Natural cycle of Chromium Oxides can occur.

So if the goal is to form a surface layer of Chromium Oxide on a SS alloy, there is a much more effect way of doing it than using a torch. Because a torch may leave residual Carbon deposits on the boundary layer.

The preferred method is through "Passivation". It is a process of removing impurities from the surface boundary of a SS alloy and also accelerating/increasing the "Thickness" of the Chromium Oxide layer.

It is a relatively simple procedure and something that could be done safely by some DIY'ers. I'm sure you will want to do your own research on Passivation but here are a few links that you, or others might find interesting.

Passivation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How To Passivate Stainless Steel Parts : Modern Machine Shop

Passivating Stainless Steel with Citric Acid


NOTE: Caution must be used when working with any chemical and proper Physical protection and ventilation should be observed. Also when working with any acid, a safe and effect way to neutralize and dispose of the acid should be established BEFORE the acid is used.

Hope this sheds some light on what is going on down on the atomic level of some of the alloys you have been using or reading about.

BTW - Thanks for giving me the 30 words or less on that "Legendary" thread. Sometimes a thread becomes So Big that it is almost unreadable.

 

[KYFlyer67]

Great info Zoi. Passivation would be a much better approach to "oxidizing" SS mesh when dealing with large amounts I think. In other words, if you wanted to "oxidize" all your SS mesh at once instead of a wick at a time, passivation would be the way to go. I'm anxious to do some testing with this approach.

I wonder if nichrome 60 and/or nichrome 80 can be passivated in much the same way?

 

[zoiDman]

Passivation is going to greatly Enhance the natural formation of Chromium Oxides. It is also going to leave a Much thicker layer of Chromium Oxide. I believe that using Nitric Acid drives Iron from the surface boundary and leaves a almost pure Chromium surface for Chromium Oxides to form. A NiChrome that contains 20% Iron would probably benefit from this.

So if you took all your SS alloy items that go into a atty mod, or anything else for that matter, degreased them and then soaked them in a Passivation solution, you would end up with a very protected piece of SS alloy.

I'm not that familiar with the "Electrical Insulation" properties of Passivated SS alloys. I have had parts Passivated for Hygienic and Corrosion properties mainly.

If you decide to try doing some of this, be sure to read and understand what acidic concentrations are to be used. You must work in a well ventilated area. Also understand the proper types of protective clothing, gloves and safety glass/face shield should be used for any particular acid.

Feel free to cross like this Passivation info into that "Legendary" thread. I am somewhat surprised that it hasn't been discussed before.

 

[KYFlyer67]

I think your first paragraph confirms why NiCr-C forms an electrically insulated skin (after burning) while NiCr-A does not - NiCr-C contains iron while NiCr-A does not.

It's my understanding that some metal oxides are insulators, while others are conductors. This may explain why the nickel mesh continues to conduct electricity even when it has an oxide skin.

 

[zoiDman]

It could be. But if anything it would seem like it should be the other way around. Like I said, my area of Chromium Oxide knowlege is somewhat restricted to physical properties rather than Electrical properties.

The long and the short of it is. If you have something that works, go with it. Hitting something with a torch is going to be easier and cheaper than doing Passivation.

 

[Persis]

Very interesting thread KY.... Suscribed.

 

[zoiDman]

Very interesting thread KY.... Suscribed.

Metallurgy is a cool subject.

The problem we have as vaper's is many times we don't know Exactly what something is made of. Take the atomizer coil.

If you do a ECF search you will get hits of people saying it's NiChrome. Cool. But that doesn't really help that much because NiChrome is an abused term to describe an family of Metal Alloys. Just as the OP found, subtitle changes to an alloys make-up can have profound changes to it's characteristics.

So a lot of what goes on is trial by error. Not saying that this is a bad thing. Just not the most efficient way to go about things.

 

[roadrash]

food for thought.
seeing as how ss mesh has somewhat the same properties as NiCrC, Chromium, nickel and iron, albeit different quantities.
would there be enough resistance in the ss mesh to use as a heating coil? Eliminating the need for nichrome or kanthral wire altogether.
would it be possible to oxidize the mesh to arrive at a disired ohm?
Am I going down the wrong road again? :>)

 

[Persis]

Metallurgy is a cool subject.

Of course, and I'm a metallurgical. And I used some of my submitting in making a genisis, you can see here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-homemade-attys-genesis-230.html#post2670365

But the most interesting is the subject of the passivation, I will check with my sources, because I use the passivation to give a finish to certain pieces of metal, and actually that work is done by some companies that provides to me that passivation service. Very very interesting ....

We will be in touch.

 

[KYFlyer67]

food for thought.
seeing as how ss mesh has somewhat the same properties as NiCrC, Chromium, nickel and iron, albeit different quantities.
would there be enough resistance in the ss mesh to use as a heating coil? Eliminating the need for nichrome or kanthral wire altogether.
would it be possible to oxidize the mesh to arrive at a disired ohm?
Am I going down the wrong road again? :>)

Roadrash - You're on the right road. In fact, someone on this forum (I can't remember his name atm) is using SS mesh as the heating element. The problem is that he's powering it with something like 10 volts. I don't wanna pack a car battery just to vape. If he can figure out how to get power requirements down, I'm in.

I don't think oxidizing the mesh will help in any way other than to make it non-conductive.

 

[KYFlyer67]

Very interesting thread KY.... Suscribed.

Yeah... I started vaping to quit smoking. I never thought it would lead to lessons in electronics, metallurgy, soldering, ceramics, adhesives, etc etc etc

 

[zoiDman]

Of course, and I'm a metallurgical. And I used some of my submitting in making a genisis, you can see here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-homemade-attys-genesis-230.html#post2670365

But the most interesting is the subject of the passivation, I will check with my sources, because I use the passivation to give a finish to certain pieces of metal, and actually that work is done by some companies that provides to me that passivation service. Very very interesting ....

We will be in touch.

Passivating a metal, that can be Passivated, has many benefits. I have never heard of someone doing it to provide "Electrical Insulation" but if it works, great. We used to Passivate SS medical parts for corrosion resistance and cosmetic effect.

Like I said before, I am very surprised that the concept of Passivation has never come in that huge thread about making atty's and mods. You can have it do for you but for small runs, there is usually a minimum charge which might be high for the average mod-er.