Too much nicotine

[Alien Traveler]

Haven't seen a study showing the nicotine level in a vaper's blood above that of a smoker, and certainly not in Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos study. His results are shown here....Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

He found it took 35 minutes of steady vaping 18 mg liquid on an EVIC set to 9 watts with a EVOD topper to reach the same nicotine blood level that smoking one cigarette for 5 minutes produces.
.

Thanks, it’s the paper I was talking about.
You see, Fig. 4 was used to show that nicotine level after 35 min of vaping is the same as after smoking. But author has the same graph on Fig. 2, only going up to 65 min, and we can see that nicotine level of vaper is SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER than that of smoker. Author was shy enough to perform comparison with smoking using picture 2.
You can see in “Additional Information” section: “The study was funded by American e-liquid Manufacturing Standards Association (AEMSA)”…
Remember Big Tobacco studies?

So, thanks to this paper, we know now that vaper can consume significantly more nicotine that smoker (if we bother to read, of course).

 

[catsmeow]

I think it depends on a few things; namely what do you want to accomplish via vaping?

Are you hoping to step down eventually? Are you hoping to quit at some point?

In addition; is there ever a point in your vaping that you are feeling satisfied and like it's "enough" or is there something missing?

If you aren't feeling satisfied I would highly recommend trying a WTA e-juice and see if that helps. Regular e-juice doesn't do it for me for a number of reasons and I couldn't seem to get enough. I found myself vaping more and more often and for much longer duration. It was making me jumpy and edgy and left me feeling not so good. With the WTA I vape far less often and for a much shorter duration and my brain feels "normal" (relatively speaking).

Your results may vary but it's worth a shot if you feel any of the above applies to you.

 

[Stosh]

Thanks, it’s the paper I was talking about.
You see, Fig. 4 was used to show that nicotine level after 35 min of vaping is the same as after smoking. But author has the same graph on Fig. 2, only going up to 65 min, and we can see that nicotine level of vaper is SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER than that of smoker. Author was shy enough to perform comparison with smoking using picture 2.
You can see in “Additional Information” section: “The study was funded by American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association (AEMSA)”…
Remember Big Tobacco studies?

So, thanks to this paper, we know now that vaper can consume significantly more nicotine that smoker (if we bother to read, of course).

Figure 2 shows the difference in the levels of generation 1 and generation 2 e-cigarettes. It shows that 65 minutes of constant chain vaping 18 mg eliquid on a generation 2 model will slightly surpass the nicotine level achieved by smoking one combustible cigarette for 5 minutes.

Of course this assumes that a smoker would never smoke more than one cigarette within an hour's time-span. Maybe I'm the exception, but on my 1 hour lunch breaks was able to smoke at least 4-5 cigarettes. Not sure what my nicotine levels were at the end of lunch hour.

 

[catsmeow]

You are definitely not the exception Stosh. I could easily do that in an hour break. Additionally, when I sit on my back porch with company and drink in the summer or go clubbing (there's one that's members only and allows indoor smoking) I could easily go through an entire pack in a few hours. I am shocked I never just keeled over. I definitely turn into a chain smoker when alcohol is involved; otherwise I was pretty solidly a 3/4 pack a day smoker for 30 years. I did notice that I smoked far less in general when I switched to American Spirits from the other brands though.

 

[Stosh]

I was just highlighting my normal smoking routine, if you put drinking into the mix I'm off the charts also. My normal was 1 1/2 packs of Camel filters, but when drinking inhaling 65 ring cigars was not uncommon.....

 

[nyiddle]

So far I've had mostly positive effects from switching from smoking cigs to vaping, but the one negative effect is the amount of nicotine I take in. When I was smoking cigs I would smoke somewhere like 10-12 cigs a day, which is around 12-14mg of nicotine. But now that I vape, I can do it pretty much anywhere at anytime, and e juice is much cheaper, and there's no limit to how much I can vape unless the battery dies or if I run out of juice. So the amount of nicotine I take in is much greater. On a normal day I'd vape around 2.5-3ml of 24mg which is about 50-60 cigs. Today I went through about 80... That's a lot of frickin cigs. I used to use 12 and 18mg liquid, but the problem is that I don't get enough nicotine per hit, and that's big for me. And I can't seem to control myself on how much I vape. Usually it's not a problem as long as I stay hydrated, but hitting the 80 mark today made me feel like ...... How much nicotine is considered dangerous? I know that most of the people I know would have thrown up by now from the amount of nicotine I've consumed.

Equating e-liquid to cigarette equivalence REALLY doesn't work (at least, until we have more science on the matter). For now, the calculations in your post are pretty arbitrary.

Vape how much feels right. If you're feeling sick, OBVIOUSLY it's too much. You shouldn't have to ask us "is this too much" if it's making you feel bad.

*I think this next paragraph is VERY wrong. Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt/I'm no chemist/This is what I have held to be true.
The LD50 for rats is 50mg/kg. The LD50 is the point at which 50% of the rats died due to their exposure to the substance, which presumably helps dictate the point at which a human would die given the equivalent dosage. So, just some head math, 180 pounds (average human being) is about 80kg, 80*50 = 4000 or so. Meaning you'd need about 4000mg of nicotine, at one time, to kill yourself with nicotine. The LD50 for caffeine is FAR lower.

Keep in mind though, mg of nicotine is done per mL. It is x mg PER MILLILITER. Meaning, a 100mL bottle of 25mg juice contains 2500mg of nicotine total.

So, to summarize, you're gonna throw up long before you kill yourself by over-nic'ing, so it's not too big of a deal, but if you're feeling uncomfortable because of the buzz, you should definitely just lower the nic levels in your juice. Dunno why that's a tough one to figure out.

Considering vaping, for most of us, is a smoking cessation method, it seems sort of counter-productive to get yourself MORE addicted to nicotine than you were before you started vaping. Same goes for the concept of "vaping in the mall" or "at your work" -- If you didn't smoke cigarettes there, why start associating nicotine with those places?

 

[kohung]

I was a heavy smoker (1 pack a day for 30 years). I only vape the way I smoked. I do not vape inside, in my car or anywhere I cannot smoke. It does re-enforce old habits of smoking, but it also helps me limit how much I vape.

 

[vexxis]

If I drink too much coffee I'm buzzing around the office like a hummingbird. I think nicotine and caffeine are pretty similar. You know if you get too much and simply back off. As for the toxicity of nicotine the generally accepted lethal dose seems to be based on someone's best guess a hundred years ago and now appears to be pretty far off (very wrong). Of course too much caffeine becomes lethal at some point and the same is true of water.

I figure if the concentration is right to give you the correct flavour then you will self regulate perfectly (I never met anyone that smoked 30 packs of cigarettes a day).

 

[Rwb1500]

Figure 2 shows the difference in the levels of generation 1 and generation 2 e-cigarettes. It shows that 65 minutes of constant chain vaping 18 mg eliquid on a generation 2 model will slightly surpass the nicotine level achieved by smoking one combustible cigarette for 5 minutes.

Of course this assumes that a smoker would never smoke more than one cigarette within an hour's time-span. Maybe I'm the exception, but on my 1 hour lunch breaks was able to smoke at least 4-5 cigarettes. Not sure what my nicotine levels were at the end of lunch hour.

Oh yeah. One at the beginning of lunch, one after eating, one or two before going back to work. All day every day.

 

[nyiddle]

As for the toxicity of nicotine the generally accepted lethal dose seems to be based on someone's best guess a hundred years ago and now appears to be pretty far off (very wrong).

wat

These guidelines were last reviewed 1994, and I'm sure they're gonna be looked at again given the prevalence of e-cigs.

 

[Stosh]

IAs for the toxicity of nicotine the generally accepted lethal dose seems to be based on someone's best guess a hundred years ago and now appears to be pretty far off (very wrong). Of course too much caffeine becomes lethal at some point and the same is true of water.

How much nicotine kills a human? Tracing back the generally accepted lethal dose to dubious self-experiments in the nineteenth century - Springer

 

[Vap3Surfing]

Look into upgrading your unit to that which 24mg will blow your head off (dripper) and you'll see satisfaction between 2-6mg and probably take half as many drags, I know dripping curbs most if not all my craving for my nic, with the lowest level I can find. The cloud effect and direct delivery balances out the loss of mg strength but almost further helps reduce my drive for a real cig or nicotine.

Good luck and Happy Vaping!!!

 

[vexxis]

wat

These guidelines were last reviewed 1994, and I'm sure they're gonna be looked at again given the prevalence of e-cigs.

Interesting, so given that it takes (by that estimate) "an oral dose of 50 to 60 mg/kg" and the person weighs 100kg they would have to consume 5000 to 6000mg? If we consider that nicotine base for DIY is often sold with 100mg/1L, you would have to drink 50 - 60 litres of 10% nicotine base? Doesn't seem possible to drink 50 litres of anything, in fact that much water is probably fatal. In any event, e-juice is typically between .6 and 2.4% so now we are into a couple of hundred litres of e-juice? Of course these figures you point to are guesses based on rats, mice and dogs most of which are non-smokers so they wouldn't have any tolerance built up. The data is very confusing.

 

[nyiddle]

Interesting, so given that it takes (by that estimate) "an oral dose of 50 to 60 mg/kg" and the person weighs 100kg they would have to consume 5000 to 6000mg? If we consider that nicotine base for DIY is often sold with 100mg/1L, you would have to drink 50 - 60 litres of 10% nicotine base? Doesn't seem possible to drink 50 litres of anything, in fact that much water is probably fatal. In any event, e-juice is typically between .6 and 2.4% so now we are into a couple of hundred litres of e-juice? Of course these figures you point to are guesses based on rats, mice and dogs most of which are non-smokers so they wouldn't have any tolerance built up. The data is very confusing.

The LD50 is usually how the standard "overdose" level is calculated.

My math is definitely wrong though, you're right.

This sounds right though:

Human data: The fatal human dose has been estimated to be about 50 to 60 mg [Lazutka et al. 1969]. [Note: An oral dose of 50 to 60 mg/kg is equivalent to a 70-kg worker being exposed to about 30 to 40 mg/m3 for 30 minutes, assuming a breathing rate of 50 liters per minute and 100% absorption.]

 

[Archer74]

So, thanks to this paper, we know now that vaper can consume significantly more nicotine that smoker (if we bother to read, of course).

Yes it can, if presented that way. But another interpretation of the graph would read: The increase in nicotine level is correlated to length of exposure, efficiency of delivery method, and the concentration of source.

The tobacco smoker was expose to a nicotine source for 5 mins while the vapers were exposed for 65mins. What would the graph look like had the tobacco smoker continued to smoke for the same duration as the vaper? It also shows a decline in the absorption rate with the Ecigs that can be attributed to the power of the device dropping, the source being depleted or both.

 

[dice57]

me vape gear used is directly related to the nic level of me juice. The better the gear and skills, the better the vape and nic delivery

When I first started, needed 24 mg nic juice to keep me from having to light up. As vape progressed, had to drop I down to 18 mg, now that me builds and skills are finely honed, and me watts vaped at has hit triple digits, sometimes, have dropped down to 12 mg.

Tis one of the great things about vape, can customize one juice to get their desired vape experience. going tingle toes and dotsie does, then time to drop the nic mg, or something like that.

One can customize every single aspect of their vape, to get total vape satisfaction. If it ain't just right, well, fix it.






Vape long and Prosper.!!!!

 

[alienhouseplant]

Nicotine content is something I worry about too. I smoked Camel filters for years. I kicked the cigarettes, now I'm trying my best to limit my nicotine intake. Up until this week I had only tried the cig-a-likes. I think I tried nearly every one on the market. (The biggest disappointment has to be the Vuse --- not because of the taste, but because the carts only come in 48mg.) I started getting carts with 12, 8, or 6mg. A few days ago I got the iTaste MVP v2. I'm still trying to find an e-liquid with low nicotine and great taste. (Also trying to figure out the whole variable wattage/voltage thing.)