The "VG Theory"

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Hey guys, I want to talk about a theory that is continuously being proved correct by process of elimination and user feedback.

Basically, it is widely known that I virtually taste something "harsh" or "bitter" or "sour" or "wicky" in my vape, across every "disposable" device out there (only total exception being Cisco).

However, what I've found over a dedicated series of testing is that VG "tones this down for me."

You might say, "Wait, well, you might just not like PG."

That's not the case, as I loved PG in the Cisco, and I've sampled various other products with PG in them and it's fine.

I think another issue is at hand, however. With my replaceable head or disposable devices, the consistent "factor" that seems to go along with a harsh, wicky, or sour taste is the fact that 100% of the time, no exception, no contradiction, that the juice will "pop" and "snap" if the vapor has a bad flavor or harsh texture. This has happened on all PG juices at all ohm ranges.

However, what I have found, is that as long as it's wicking well, that VG juice "eliminates" both this snapping and popping entirely, and with it, completely changing the flavor. If the VG starts to wick badly, it will do the same snapping and popping as the PG always does, and the flavor will immediately change for the worse. If I get it wicking correctly again, the bad flavor usually goes away, and tastes great again.

What this points to, is that what I'm sensing is based on this "sound" of popping and snapping, that whichever state of "fluidity", "viscosity", and "coil wetness" allows for this sound, it equals a taste that I HATE. Tastes just like sweaty socks or metal or fiberglass.

Now, according to what my theory is, it's that this sound is produced when either liquid is "too thin" (and gets vaporized at about 100 degrees lower temperature, as thin liquid does, meaning it's vaporized faster) or a second theory is that PG may alternatively gunk up on the coil in some sort of way, causing the liquid to get trapped for a second, then bursting into air, making the cracking noise. However, the second theory doesn't make sense, as I can drench a coil with VG, and it doesn't make that sound until the VG dries out a little from a sudden lack of wicking.

And why I believe I can "taste" something from this is because, with that "popping", this means that huge air bubbles are hitting those wicks at once, rather than a steady stream of microscopic air particles hitting the wick at an even and steady timeframe, and that the larger amount of air touching the coils gives me either more feedoff from the metallic chemicals of the coil, or the chemical properties of the wick of choice. The only other thing I can think of is that VG is an excellent liquid for controlling hotspots (since I believe it vaporizes slower and at a higher temp) and may "combat" hotspots, where PG liquid may not do anything at all to properly mask them, making a coil vape exactly like it's built. These hotspots would naturally cause more heat on a certain part of the coil or wick, and naturally burn the juice a little bit.

All in all, it's a test that I have performed extremely and found it to be true every single time. Sometimes the flavor of the pure VG will be "off" if the coil is just very bad, but no matter what, VG seems to control a bad coil like it's a miracle!

Anyone have the same experience?

Summary points

A. VG, as long as you tweak your device to wick it (or simply vape the top coil horizontally, that's all I do and it works amazingly) may work like a miracle on devices like the Protank, the Evod, the Flux, CE4's/5's, ect ect. This horizontal technique does not work for PG IMO. PG just burns up right away.

B. VG may help mask and calm hotspots, since VG is vaporized at a higher temp. The hotspot itself may not reach outside the recommended vaporization point range for VG, but may for a thinner juice with PG.

P.S. Another reason I think this, is that I might believe that devices like the Protank and such don't have proper airflow for PG liquid. RDA'ers drill out big air holes for sub-ohm coils because without them, the vapor would taste extremely harsh. Who really wants a vapor that they choke on every time, or tastes like bad socks? No one. And if those airholes didn't exist on the RDA's, it behaves like PG in a Protank. The coil simply gets too hot for the juice, for the human throat, for the human tongue. Without proper airflow in devices like the Protank or clearomizers, I think that that the coils are getting to hot at least for PG liquid. That's what I believe so far. It seems always worse in devices with much tighter airflow (yet without good juice suction for wicking).

Aka - close the airflow, yet do it with a device where closed airflow doesn't technically effect the suction of the wicking juice much (some devices just don't), and then vape some cheap pure PG juice, or 70/30. That mess will taste burnt, dry, or just a little hashy. That's what I believe, and I think many people experience this too. It depends on a lot of factors, but when you add a slightly badly built coil to that exact mix, then you have every experience I've ever had. Then add my slightly sensitive tongue to the mix, and it's overkill. I simply can't vape it!
 
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WattWick

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A hotspot is an error that should be rectified, not something you should try to control with PG/VG ratio.

No offense, but it's hard to take any experiment seriously when you do not include any information about how its performed, what equipment you use and how it's set up.

What you have found is that a bad coil is a bad coil, and/or that you have insufficient wicking for the heat you apply to your coil.
 

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I've performed this test with multiple Protank heads, the Aspire, and the Fluxomizers, with the heads on the Protank being around 2.4ohms, the Aspire being dual-coil 1.8, and the Fluxomizers being 2.4ohms. All done on two batteries, a 3.7V Ego and a VV Twist, with voltage ranges from 3.3-4.0.

With the wicking ability, it various from device to device, but I've scientifically found that VG wicks just as well as PG (both by examining wicks and coils seconds after a puff) and by the test that the Fluxomizers (which have large, open top-wick slots that allow you to "choose" to have liquid flooding into the coils if you vape it horizontally - a good thing for thick VG, and something that should, by all scientific description, even better for a PG liquid that is 10x thinner. This same type of test was done by removing flavor wicks on a Protank, and each time, the VG tasted cleaner, and wicked as well as the PG, though much thicker.)

It's sort of a step process that any experienced user should find accurate - IMO, the whole VG-doesn't-wick-well thing is a bunch of nonsense and anyone who knows what they're doing can get VG to wick and taste great. However, my problem is actually with PG, which is a billion times thinner. No problems with flooding, and if I use the same wick set-up as VG, then PG should flood or wick even better, but it does not and tastes awful.

I've even tried causing the PG to "wick less" in case that "too much liquid" is a problem for PG, but that did not solve the problem at all and only made the flavor worse.

Hotspots are impossible to really diagnose and fix on replaceable heads and disposable clearomizers. I'm trying to find a theory that revolutionizes these devices in a way that fixes the issue for me, and may add a much cleaner experience for other users that they have never really been able to get out of those devices before. I believe these devices are usually hotspotted and crosswrapped and everything else out the AAA, with my visual experience with them.

If that's the case, then so far, my studies prove that 100%VG liquid, with using a wicking method that essentially floods the VG liquid to the coil, solves the harshness and hotness that these defects can produce. It has been a miracle finding for me, it allows me to vape cheap devices. It's what works for me, and I encourage other users to buy some 100%VG (I got my VG juices specifically from VCV) and try it out on a device that, for them, they don't vape anymore.

(A big proponent in this is to ALWAYS let your VG soak in your devices wicks for 24 hours - VG takes around 24 hours to totally saturate many wick styles out there, you'll see for yourself with devices that have fly-away wicks. The wicks won't be fully penetrated with liquid until about 24-30 hours later. That's when the vape suddenly works outstandingly.)
 
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Ryedan

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I think another issue is at hand, however. With my replaceable head or disposable devices, the consistent "factor" that seems to go along with a harsh, wicky, or sour taste is the fact that 100% of the time, no exception, no contradiction, that the juice will "pop" and "snap" if the vapor has a bad flavor or harsh texture. This has happened on all PG juices at all ohm ranges.

In my experience juice snaps, crackles and pops when everything is working well in my e-cig (I love that sound). When it stops sounding like that I find flavor and vapor production decrease. When that happens I replace or clean the head, or the carto, or the coil & wick in a RDA and that snap, crackle and pop return, my vape goes back to great and I'm a happy camper again. PG/VG mix does not make a difference for me in this.

What this points to, is that what I'm sensing is based on this "sound" of popping and snapping, that whichever state of "fluidity", "viscosity", and "coil wetness" allows for this sound, it equals a taste that I HATE. Tastes just like sweaty socks or metal or fiberglass.

I suspect that you just prefer lower power vaping. That does not create that snap, crackle and pop sound. Any time you hear that, try turning down the volts/watts and that sound will go away.

Vape on :thumb:
 
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crxess

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And there he goes again.

Is it possible the Popping sound is causing a mental image and creating the idea of a bad ensuing taste?

Have you tested your devices using VG only? NO Flavoring, No Nic, No additives of any kind?
Same question for PG
Next Test would Be Mixed Percentages starting from the Better end - i.e. VG Best results / 20pg/80vg / etc
Next Test would be Each with a specific % of Nicotine added to a workable mix

If you are going to assume - test - then you might know
 

catalinaflyer

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In my experience juice snaps, crackles and pops when everything is working well in my e-cig (I love that sound). When it stops sounding like that I find flavor and vapor production decrease. When that happens I replace or clean the head, or the carto, or the coil & wick in a RDA and that snap, crackle and pop return, my vape goes back to great and I'm a happy camper again. PG/VG mix does not make a difference for me in this.

I love the sound of juice popping too. For me, that means I'm about to get a good pull.
Goodnews, honestly, you need to do more reading and less thinking.

Me too, when I build a new coil no matter which device, a ProTank2 head, a dripper, genesis or Kayfun, I listen for that lovely sound of Snap-Crackle-Pop and I know the vape is going to be heaven. Once that sound is gone I know it's time to pull the cotton and dry burn the coil to get the sound of bliss to come back.
 

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And there he goes again.

Is it possible the Popping sound is causing a mental image and creating the idea of a bad ensuing taste?

Have you tested your devices using VG only? NO Flavoring, No Nic, No additives of any kind?
Same question for PG
Next Test would Be Mixed Percentages starting from the Better end - i.e. VG Best results / 20pg/80vg / etc
Next Test would be Each with a specific % of Nicotine added to a workable mix

If you are going to assume - test - then you might know

I haven't tried VG and PG without flavorings (haven't been able to find it anywhere, to be honest - I want to), however, I have tried the different ratios and even a drop of a PG liquid seems to thin out VG to a PG-related point. It's like an instant change. I had half a tank of pure VG juice in the Flux, dropped one drop of PG liquid in it, and the tank went from sludgy jello (lol, not really, but it's a joke about VG) to water. And the taste instantly tasted wicky, and the popping started.

I also have used various amounts of nicotine (I use no nicotine for my real tests) and I've found that nicotine absorption itself was extremely high, when vaped on a device that does not pop or crack (the Cisco), while on devices that pop, the throat hit is way more appearant or harsher, but without delivering any sort of "buzz" at all - using the same nicotine juices.

To me, this seems to point to the fact that in my 3.5ohm Cisco at 4.1V's (no pretentious meanings applied) that, despite no throat hit, that nicotine and flavor delivery was tremendously triplefold compared to other devices, where instead, the flavor will be flat (but possibly clean, depending on my tweaks) and with a harsh throat hit, if there is nicotine. It seems to point to my theory that many devices out there vaporize both nicotine and food flavoring at too high a temperature to both keep chemicals from feeding off from the wire and wick (coils have to be kept cool), and that both flavorings and nicotine effectiveness itself diminishes with a hotter vape, a hotter applied temperature.

Obviously, I think this would also have an effect when vaporizing certain medical herbs out there, I do believe it's possible that the medical effect people get from these herbs is better when vaped a lower temperature rather than a high one. It would have to do with how "wet" the particles are to the lungs, and lungs actually trap wet particles better than dry ones, if I'm not mistaken - that's why our lungs would feel stuffy on a foggy morning, and not in a room full of sawdust. Also, if this herb was vaped at a lower temperature, I'm almost positive the effect would be a stronger "skunky" flavor - which would translate to having more flavor on our end.

More flavor is not always a good thing. On normal coils, this can just cause a flavor to taste like shoe polish. That downtrodden flavor. Too much saturation. I don't believe this to be true for a microcoil or tight coil though. I believe those coils actually could have a unique ability to vaporize flavorings and nicotine at full saturation, but without a "throat hit" or "laquer" taste.

For instance, I could wrap a 3.5ohm normal coil right now, and it probably wouldn't even give off vapor at 4.1V's. In the Cisco, it gave off PLUMES. That's the microcoil effect IMO. Along with the tremendous flavor that I have never, ever experienced on any other device (and even a modder's subohm build), the device was also the only once since the disposables of 2009 that gave me a full flavor and nicotine buzz. The devices of today do no such thing, they're entirely different.
 
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catalinaflyer

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I haven't tried VG and PG without flavorings (haven't been able to find it anywhere, to be honest - I want to)

There are literally 100's of places online that sell DIY supplies and every one of them sells pure 100% PG. As for pure 100% VG, Wal-Mart right close to the isopropyl alcohol and witch hazel. I keep pure VG from Wal-Mart for making clouds with my dual coil dripper.
 

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Ya'll got to remember, I started vaping in 2009.

If it's true that devices were made entirely different back then (say, even in disposables, if the coils were higher ohms and built to be tighter wrapped than coils now, or something), then that's what I'm chasing.

E-cig devices of today, and e-cig devices of back then, are ENTIRELY different worlds. I like the old-school, huge flavor, nicotine absorption, no throat hit result of all those kits back in the day.

I think people like more of a "hot" hit now - well, I've been vaping so long that I dunno if half the people here even know what I'm trying to describe. All devices nowadays seem "hot" to me, way too hot to even work right.

Going into vendors and testing out the juice bars, someone vaping the Vivi Nova's at the shop yesterday wouldn't even have a CLUE what e-cigs were like back in 2010 and so. All they'd taste is that "hot" vape. Little bit of silica funkiness, little bit of metalllic funkiness, some generally decent flavor, generally decent puffs, and with nicotine added, a dry, hashy vape.

But that ain't how I started vaping. That wasn't what vaping was like back in the day. Back in the day, you could buy a Blu disposable, an e-cig kit, whatever, and the vapor tasted like full, juicy caramel popcorn or like a smooth, solid artificial tobacco, the nicotine absorbtion was stellar. Fast foward a few years, every disposable carto just burns up and taste like a charcoal briquet.

To me, I almost think it's either A. Design flaws. or B. Some weird manipulations that these companies are doing to appeal to those who want some sort of crazy knock-you-down throat hit. Throat hit ain't the only thing vaping is about, and it doesn't even do anything - I seem to prove that hot hashy throat hit type vapor is totally contradictory to nicotine absorbtion, at least in my lungs.

That smooth nicotine draw (where nicotine is slightly present in feel, but more like by thickness instead of harshness) is really what delivers true nicotine the best IMO.
 
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Ryedan

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I haven't tried VG and PG without flavorings (haven't been able to find it anywhere, to be honest - I want to), however, I have tried the different ratios and even a drop of a PG liquid seems to thin out VG to a PG-related point.

You can get them both from RTS Vapes. I buy mine from my local pharmacy and that should work for you too, but don't tell them you're wanting it for e-cigs if they ask. Both of these are also used in skin lotion making and I tell them my wife needs them for that. Never had a problem.
 

Ryedan

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Ya'll got to remember, I started vaping in 2009.

If it's true that devices were made entirely different back then (say, even in disposables, if the coils were higher ohms and built to be tighter wrapped than coils now, or something), then that's what I'm chasing.

E-cig devices of today, and e-cig devices of back then, are ENTIRELY different worlds. I like the old-school, huge flavor, nicotine absorption, no throat hit result of all those kits back in the day.

I think people like more of a "hot" hit now - well, I've been vaping so long that I dunno if half the people here even know what I'm trying to describe. All devices nowadays seem "hot" to me, way too hot.

Easy to fix. Like I said earlier, just turn down the power ... less volts or watts = cooler vape :thumb:
 

crxess

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Ya'll got to remember, I started vaping in 2009.

Been Vaping under a rock all this time?

Almost......and I really mean ALMOST, wish there was a school of Vaping. Maybe then you could find answers to Questions you don't understand enough to ask.

You have successfully gone From Silica being the Root cause of ALL your Vaping whoa's to PG Being the Finite culprit.......or is it Coil Hot spots?:blink: Or Maybe.................


Stay tuned.



............................................................................................

Heck, I have gotten better Vapes off 350mah Ego mini's with Smok Shorty Cartos than I believe you will ever experience.
I still believe much of it is really understanding your equipment and using it properly.

Your best attempt recorded to Date has been the HH357 and you successfully messed it up within a few hours use. You have got to SLOW DOWN and work on one problem/solution with one piece of equipment at a time.

IF you ever actually enjoyed Vaping, WHAT WORKED? and WHY are you NOT still using that setup?
 

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B1sh0p

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Easy to fix. Like I said earlier, just turn down the power ... less volts or watts = cooler vape :thumb:

But with clearo's, you're going to run into wicking problems.

At this point, there's no reason to complain. If you read a little and figure out how devices work, you can pretty much dial one into to get your desired vape. If I wanted a "cool" vape, I sure as hell wouldn't be underpowering clearomizers with 100% VG. They won't wick, or they'll flood.
 

catalinaflyer

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Back in the day, you could buy a Blu disposable, an e-cig kit, whatever, and the vapor tasted like full, juicy caramel popcorn or like a smooth, solid artificial tobacco, the nicotine absorbtion was stellar. Fast foward a few years, every disposable carto just burns up and taste like a charcoal briquet.

You know it all boils down to personal preference. And as far as "back in the day", go over to the new members area for a few hours and read, there are dozens of people every day who tried e-cigs "back in the day" and went back to smoking because their experience was so radically different than what you happen to enjoy. They are coming back to vaping now because of the seemingly daily advances in technology and prefer todays vape over "back in the day".

I tried a Cig-A-Like one time about 4 years ago, it sucked, the flavor sucked, the vapor sucked and I never picked up another one but that's my opinion.
 

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Ya'll got to remember, I started vaping in 2009....

...I've been vaping so long that I dunno if half the people here even know what I'm trying to describe....
I've re-written this response several times. Cancel, re-read the thread, start response again, rinse repeat.

I've been trying to think of some way to help ya out pardner.

I just don't think it can be done by me. Mebbe some one from the stone age of vaping, say 2008......
 

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Ryedan

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But with clearo's, you're going to run into wicking problems.

At this point, there's no reason to complain. If you read a little and figure out how devices work, you can pretty much dial one into to get your desired vape. If I wanted a "cool" vape, I sure as hell wouldn't be underpowering clearomizers with 100% VG. They won't wick, or they'll flood.

I have had good success with CE4's and VVN's with from 30% VG to 70% VG. I do like and go for the 'hottest' vape from them I can get (and that's not all that hot with clearos ;)). When the higher VG juices wick a little sluggish for me in a clearo I add a bit of water. You can certainly tune down a clearo to give you a less aggressive vape. They perform very well that way for me, but as always, YMMV.
 

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crxess

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I have had good success with CE4's and VVN's with from 30% VG to 70% VG. I do like and go for the 'hottest' vape from them I can get (and that's not all that hot with clearos ;)). When the higher VG juices wick a little sluggish for me in a clearo I add a bit of water. You can certainly tune down a clearo to give you a less aggressive vape. They perform very well that way for me, but as always, YMMV.
This is my point, you've read and experienced enough that you're able troubleshoot and get your desired vape. You didn't cry about flawed equipment. Anytime I have a problem with a piece of kit, I run through the possibilities. Burnt taste. It's not wicking. Why isn't it wicking? Airflow? Viscosity? Etc...
 
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