Nicotine poisoning

[Ciego]

I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on T.V. Any medical information included in the post was taken from wikipedia.

I got to wondering if using a PV too much could lead to nicotine poisoning. As with many other poisons, there are degrees of intoxication with nicotine, and I think I may have crossed a line somewhere when first starting to vape.

At its extreme, nicotine poisoning can cause seizures and death. However, even low-level intoxication can be unpleasant: heart palpitations, drooling/excessive saliva, a burning sensation in the mouth and throat, nausea, shaking. Remember when you first smoked an analog, how dizzy and nauseated you got? That's nicotine poisoning.

If you suffer from hypertension (high blood pressure), if you have a history of heart ailments or if you're a woman who is nursing, pregnant or who may become pregnant, you really need to consult your doctor before even taking that first vape.

I use prefilled cartomizers; someday soon I will figure out how to fill carts without being able to see, but for the time being I'll use the factory filled. Choosing nicotine strength was a problem; I had a hard time figuring out which strength would be best for me. I think I either ordered too high a concentration, or else I'm using the PV too often/too much.

Nicotine strength in cartomizers I've seen and used ranges from zero, zip nada to 24 mg./l. I thought, since I was a full-flavor 100's, pack-a-day guy that 24 mg. would be ideal. I'm now rethinking that.

My vaping style and frequency seems to be "often and oftener," as I love the flavors. However, by bedtime every evening since I started vaporizing, I have heartburn and other symptoms of mild nicotine poisoning.
Here's what I think, and let me know if you agree. I think that because there's no tar etc. it is easier to vape more puffs than it would be to smoke an analog cigarette of relatively equal strength.

Nicotine addiction is like many other drug addictions; the more you use, the higher your tolerance goes. When you started smoking, you probably couldn't handle more than a few "light" cigs before getting that woozy, pukey feeling. After a few years, it was a pack a day of the light flavor. Eventually, you kept smoking until you needed way more nicotine than wehn you started in order to feel satisfied.

Based on the above, I would strongly suggest the following. Please, correct me if I am wrong in any of my assumptions here. Of course, your mileage will vary as is the case with any drug, and nicotine is no exception.

1. Start with a lower nicotine concentration than you think you'll need when first starting out. It will take you a few carts' worth to figure out your own vaping style and level of consumption.

2. If you use juice and either drip or fill your own cartridges, take it easy until you know how much nicotine will be delivered.

3. Beware non-tobacco flavors. I got stupid sick last night on a rum-cola flavor 18 mg. strength carto. It tasted so good that I forgot it contains nicotine, and I vaped myself sick fairly quickly. And remember, I was a pack-a-day Marlbo 100's guy when I laid down the ....-logs and picked up the digital.

4. This may be an illusion, but I think different flavors of the same nicotine strength affect me differently. I am more likely to feel poisoned from menthol juice than 555 or RY4 without menthol, for instance. Anybody else notice this, or am I nuts?

5. Lastly, and maybe most importantly. If you are currently a non-smoker who is reading this because you're curious about vaping... listen up. Nicotine is a highly addictive substance. Without getting into a pharmacology lesson here, there is strong scientific evidence that nicotine is more physically addictive than coc--ne Both drugs affect the same type of receptors, called cholinergic receptors, in the brain...but nicotine is accepted by more types of these receptors. Please do not vape nicotine if you are not currently an ....-log cigarette smoker. I am serious here. You don't need this jones.
Of course, current non-smokers can still vape and be part of the fun. It is fortunate that most vendors (with some notable exceptions) sell nicotine-free juice and nicotine-free prefilled cartridges/cartomizers. Stick with the fruit flavors, etc.

Please comment on this post; I am curious as to other beginners' experiences with nicotine poisoning. And remember, my definition of nicotine poisoning includes mild discomfort reactions as well.

 

[Kate51]

Health New Zealand

The link above opens many links in regard to e-cigarette use vs. smoking.
In all comparison testing done to this time, using an e-cig is very comparable in nicotine density to using patches. Not to be confused with a cigarette, in which case much more effective in delivery of nicotine directly to lungs for instant absorbtion.
With a vaporized liquid, nicotine is absorbed through mucosa in mouth, nose(sinuses) and throat, a delayed reaction time, and diminished percentage of nicotine per puff. That's a little over-simplified, but tests show with an e-cig you absorb and metabolize only about 10% of the nicotine you would from smoking, measured over equal time frames, understand, smoking vs. vaping.
So along with the confusion of how much nicotine you absorb, you have the added effect of counter-acting the effects of withdrawal. With an e-cig you will definitely be experiencing withdrawal. You puff more!! Just as you would if you were suddenly smoking a cigarette with greatly diminished dose of nicotine, you automatically just smoke more. (So much for "light" cigarettes!)
I was a 2-3 pack a day smoker, for over 44 years, and from day one with my e-cig I was amazed to find it did satisfy enough to be able to not ever put another cigarette in my mouth! Yes, I was starving to death, (I thought!) I had nervous energy galore (an improvement from not hardly being able to function anymore because of smoking, tar, CO2, and all the negative-effects of breathing smoke.)
Some people have good luck using 16mg/ml juices, other need to increase to 24mg/ml (that's what I used, I was satisfied with that) some people have to use higher density, or augment e-cig use by using snus, lozenges, etc. to be able to withstand withdrawal. Everyone is different.

Yes, all the symptoms you listed are sign of over-use of nicotine, extreme care must be taken to never use more than necessary. Do no harm! And do always be careful with juices, keep away from kids and pets, it can be lethal. Store securely. A teaspoon of 16mg juice can kill (40-60mg of nicotine can stop your heart.) That's not large amount. And it can and does absorb through the skin. A teaspoon of juice is a little over 4ml, much more than you could vape in a short time-frame. Most cartridges hold only a few drops of liquid, less than 1 ml....be very very careful with liquids over 24mg/ml ~ one cartful of 36mg/ml juice will put me on the floor in wretching agony!

And with delayed absorbtion, sometimes it may take a few minutes of over-use to be apparent, but stopping vaping for a short time should allow your body and mind to adjust, and slow down a bit! The half-life of nicotine effects is about one hour. (Residual metabolized nicotine in small but testable amounts can stay in tissues for up to 4 or 5 days ~ if you work in an environment where you are tested, it's a good idea to remember that.)
But if you feel you're vaping too much, too often, it's a natural thing ~ you will gradually cut back without even thinking about it once your body has had time to cleanse and acclimate, a few weeks. It took a couple months for me to feel comfortable enough to cut back my nicotine, and when I did, there was no further withdrawal, not at all.
I have cut nicotine in half or better, and the amount of juice by much more than half. After nearly two years of vaping, I'm also enjoying life by increased multiples!

Welcome to ECF! Happy Vaping

 

[silkakc]

Ciego,

Folks here have noted how crazy our Nic requirements are as Vapers and how there is NO correlation to our previous analog intake.

Some folks who smoked 2 packs a day of Marlboro or Camel can't vape any higher than 12 mg or they get sick. Some folks who smoked a half a pack a day of Ultra Lights need 36 mg to feel "normal". It makes no sense at all what our "needs" will be when we switch to vaping.

Since your problems start in the evening, why don't you try switching to 18 or 12 mg at 4 pm and see what happens. You know what a nicotine fit feels like and if you need more, just go up again. But it may solve your problem

Lori

 

[banjo]

Excellent posts on this issue. I've been vaping for almost 6 months. I started at 30mg, moved down to 24mg, and I'm now beginning to order 18mg juice from my suppliers. I haven't had any symptoms to indicate that I have a problem, but since nicotine is addictive & a poison, I think the wise course of action is to reduce the intake levels and dependence.

 

[Hygroscopic]

I agree starting at the level where you left off with analogs is a better way to approach vaping.

Analogs started as one or two a day then became a pack or two a day. To prevent someone from launching immediately into withdrawal, I do not recommend starting lower than average to the pack. Because if someone hits withdrawal they will be more inclined to quit vaping before they gave it a decent shot.

Also buy different levels of nicotine and some 0mg flavorings if chain vaping a flavor is an issue. There are two flavors I absolutely love and because they are so easy to chain vape, I get them in under 11mg levels and get some 0nic too. I keep the 24+ for stressful situations. Otherwise generally camp around 18mg.

I was never a consistent smoker. No matter what I told myself, it was never consistent. Bad days I smoked more. Good days I smoked less. When I started vaping, I made sure to purchase mg levels with that in mind.

 

[diatonicform]

I've been vaping for a couple of months now, and I notice that I do have to be careful about how much nicotine I'm taking in. My biggest problem (and perk of vaping) is being able to vape all day at work. Before, I had to go outside to get my nic fix; now I just sit and vape all day. This has increased my work productivity, but it's also been problematic with how much nicotine I take in. I started at 24mg nic, but found that it was way too much. 12mg was too low, so now I happily vape at 18mg. I still have to be careful and force myself to stop sometimes, but overall I'm very happy at 18mg. Odd, since I was only a 1/2 pack to 3/4 pack smoker a day (Camel Crush), and I would've thought that less nic would've worked...

 

[Hygroscopic]

Diatonicform, I do hear you on that.

It is why I will switch over to a 0mg cart or juice if I still feel the need to vape, but I'm okay with the nicotine craving.

 

[diatonicform]

That's a great idea. Being fairly new at this, I haven't really gotten the hang of keeping different carts around for different occasions... I tend to just refill and refill until I decide the cart has finished its lifespan, then switch to a new one. Now that I'm more established in vaping, I should probably start playing around with stuff like that...

 

[B-Rad_The_Mad_Vapr]

I vape 30mg (like 15ml/day) average started w/ 24mg and was never giving my PV a moments rest @ 30mg I can set it down for 10-15 minutes lol

 

[Clinton]

I've been vaping since October 5th of this year. I was smoking Camel Wides, full flavor, at a pack and a half a day. So, when I ordered my e-cig, I figured I had to get the 36mg stuff. I was wrong... whoa was I wrong. Luckily I ended up with some 24mg stuff too since they didn't have that particular flavor in 36mg at the time. But even that was a bit too strong. Vaping is so damn fun, and tastes so good, I want to keep going even after I gotten my 'nic fix'.. not good.
My goal is to get off of nicotine all together, so I can get gastric bypass surgery. So, every time I order, I go down a strength level. Now I'm on 18mg, which is working fine. I also got some 11mg, some 8mg, and 10mils of 0mg so I can try it out(I loaded up on account of a 30% off black friday sale at V4L ).
Anyway, my advice to anyone considering dropping the analogs and picking up a PV, even if you're a heavy smoker, you're probably not going to need the 36 or the 24. I'd try starting out with the 18mg.

 

[wv2win]

I'm sure the FDA and anti's who read this forum love this post, especially the "scare" title. If this is such a big concern (which it isn't) I wonder why there hasn't been numerous reports of this problem, especially on this forum or in the news?? I'm all for people being knowlegible but not by starting a thread with "Nicotine Poisening". I also can't agree with point 1. Too many examples of newbies starting with low mg strength and then going back to analogs.

 

[B-Rad_The_Mad_Vapr]

I also can't agree with point 1. Too many examples of newbies starting with low mg strength and then going back to analogs.

Agreed, I think 18-24mg depending on how much you smoked is a good starting point and move up or down from there depending on what your body tells you

 

[DC2]

I disagree.

Getting off cigarettes is far more important than worrying about how much nicotine you are getting.
And most people need enough nicotine to get off the cigarettes.

If that means any given person needs to start out a little higher than they should for it to work, then they should do so.

If your theory were correct, people would be tending to increase their nicotine intake as time goes on.
We see the exact opposite in this forum, with lots and lots of people easily reducing their nicotine strength over time.
There may be some instances of people increasing their nicotine strength over time, but it is so rare as to be almost non-existant.

 

[Ciego]

Kate, Lori everyone... thanks for the intelligent and informative replies.

One thing that Kate51' wrote doesn't make sense to me. I am having a hard time believing that all the nicotine absorption takes place in the mucosa of the mouth and nose. Obviously, as the body doesn't have to "strain" the nicotine out of the smoke, it can be absorbed via mucosa. Still, I would be very surprised if some absorption didn't happen in the alveoli.

I rollercoaster a lot nicotine-wise. One problem I have is this: I'm blind, I have a dozen little boxes of cartos around here, most in the 18 mg. range but not all. Today I received yet another V4L order (thanks guys for the fast shipping), and even once I get some seeing-eye help to sort them out, I might not be able to keep them straight. I just grab and puff. Of course, throat hit gives me a cue as to nicotine density, but in an average day I might hit 24 mg. on my KR808, then hit some 11 mg. on my PT, then hit some 0 m.g. on my E9. I try to keep them sorted, but so far... I'm just plain disorganized. This actually makes it fun; every carto has a surprise inside. So, I now more carefully monitor my body as I puff. If I start to feel woozy, I back off, change cartos, whatever it takes.

Another hint: According to first aid/treatment information I got online, most of the nicotine is metabolized after an hour or so. During that hour, I don't vape. I drink water or do something else to occupy my mouth.

Oddly enough, since I started vaping a week before Thanksgiving this year, I have only smoked 6 analogs. The most recent one, a Marly Red 100 , tasted so bad to me that I crushed it out after only two puffs. I went back to a low-nicotine carto...and was fully satisfied for the rest of the evening.

For me (and I know my situation is fairly unusual), I think it's less about nicotine addiction for me than it is about the hand/mouth/puff/exhale ritual so familiar from cigarettes. To be sure, I'm a nico-junkie, but I don't know. Maybe it's the variable schedule of reinforcement (switching up between strengths) that's actually helping me to stay clear of tobacco.

Just rambling. Thanks again all for the great replies. Back to my V4L Peppermint 18 mg.

 

[UntamedRose]

If it's a hand to mouth need drop your mg's to a lower level.

This might be to time consuming to be practical but have you thought about a braille labeler? Braille Labeler by ila

 

[grandmato5]

I appreciate your post from your own perspective. The thing is we are all different and we all react differently. While it's entirely possible that people are at times over doing their amounts of nic its also obvious from the lack of news reports and reports here on ECF that people are not way overdosing on nic while using their PV's no matter how much they vape. With all the negatives being fed to us about our PV's there is no doubt that the news media would having a feeding frenzie if there was major overdosing going on. If the nic levels you have been using are too high for you that is easy to fix by using lower levels. Many people find that they need to use different nic levels at different times of day. The one thing that has been shown over and over here on ECF is that there is not a lot of correlation between the amt of nic in the cigarettes people smoked and the nic level they need in their PV's to be satisfied PV users. Some need higher and some need lower. Some need to continue with the higher levels they first start out with, some need to increase their nic level, and others like myself can successfully reduce the nic level they use after vaping for a while. Again, just proves we are all different.

To me the most important bit of advise to others that vape is to listen to what your body is telling you and follow your own bodies advise. When we ignor what our bodies are trying to tell us is when we do the most harm to ourselves. Good luck on your continued PV journey.

 

[Kate51]

Ciego, it's the vapor. When tobacco is combusted, the smoke (by product of burning) delivers tiny particles of everything into your lungs ~ everything contained in the cigarette is part of the smoke. All of those chemicals!
With vapor, the difference in temp from atomizer to throat pretty much "dumps" nicotine at the point of pulling vapor into your mouth, in a way, all vapor is condensing back into separate components. Nicotine is carried by the vapor in the form of molecules, not particalized by combustion. The nicotine molecules in vapor are much larger, vapor condensing cannot keep it suspended within the fog.
Unless you breath vapor straight into your lungs, but even then, very little if any nicotine will be carried all the way into the alveoli; I don't recommend direct inhale, but lots of people do that. A failing atomizer or over-filling or low battery can cause release of bigger drops through the mouthpiece, a person may have a choking problem.
Again, testing of e-cig vapor has pretty much shown the theory of mucosa absorbtion to be true. (Check out the NZ testing links, for more info.)
We do need more testing of exhaled vapor and possible nicotine exposure, but so far there is evidence that second-hand inhalation is not a problem.

I totally agree with DC2, using nicotine at higher levels then dropping is really kind of self-defeating ~ makes giving up cigs that much more difficult. Finding a level that is comfortable is much more desirable, and gradually lowering from that level is waaay easier, fewer of those "panic" times. Better to adjust the cadence of vaping, than to increase nicotine. If when starting out you need to be puffing all the time, then is the time to slightly increase nicotine density, until it's something you're comfortable with all the time. If your vaping isn't as frenzied, that means you've hit the "sweet spot". Don't go any higher.
That's why most people who are really trying hard to stop smoking use an alternative no-smoke source of nicotine and MAOI's, such as snus or gums, lozenges etc. to help with withdrawal.
AND, would make your juice identification a lot simpler! BEST OF LUCK TO YOU

 

[psychicsmokin]

I smoke Pall Mall (red/shorts) for almost 10 years..about a half-to 1 pack a day (never went over a pack in a long time)..and if I did (when I used to work at a nightclub for 11 years--I STILL never got any side effects from "nicotine poisening")..

However, I just started vaping...and got the 510 ecig (from Vapor4life--wonderful cigs)..and thought 11mg would be just fine enough to "chain vape/smoke"...and then about 30 min later (after chain vaping for an hour on 11mg--never finished the cart)..my heart started racing... I DID tho--have 2 cups of coffee that morning and 4 analogs before that)..although never got sick or felt sick..that freaked me out...now I'm scared to vape...although I do have some good 0 nicotine)...I am constantly depressed for the past week about wanting to "chain vape" (I stay at home and work online)..and is too darn scared that I will get nic poisening if I do that!!

Again, didn't have any other side effects (not even a headache) after that chain vape..(although my hubby said most likely my heart just raced a bit..but then gave me a panick attack)..but I don't think so..maybe a bit of both (and I never get pannick attacks--the last time I did was when I was taking some diet pills a long time ago--will never do THAT again)...

I found myself vaping 0 nicotine..but still reach for the analogs (and really don't WANT to ...but I want to be able to smoke the way I did before---which (I know, bad)...I chained smoked in the mornings...for a few hours while working online ...but now I'm so scared I won't be able to do that..even tho I have some 8mg of nictoine..I know that is considered low..but after reading about even my full flavored analogs (Pall Mall Reds), have about 1.7 mg of nicotine in EACH cig...which means it takes a WHOLE pack to get about 30mg a DAY (no wonder ppl buy so many packs, or smokes so many--possibly WHY tobacco companies make SO MUCH--by putting only a tiny bit of nicotine in their cigs to make us buy more and more)--which is fine..however, will 4mg of nictotine be ok for me to chain vape? I do know (or read), that 20 drops is about 1ml of nicotine from the actual bottles...so if this is so...I found one of my wonderful vapers (Inferno from Volcano ecigs.com), lasts for about 3 hours with using just 3-4 drops..

Sooooooooooo..(sorry I am a newbie to ecigs..lol)....does this mean that vaping on 4 drops of 4mg nicotine every 5 hours is ok for me?

I know you all say it depends on the person, health, and the amount of types of cigs they smoked before vaping (I'm 31, in great shape--I work out about 5-6 times a week and do weight training), and I eat VERY clean too. I'm am a health nut and have no health issues (except yes, smoking cigs for the last 9 years)...

 

[lujin4]

Have not seen a 510 at Vapor4Life, they are KR808-D1s.

 

[dormouse]

I am actually making an effort not to increase my nicotine dependency. I use smaller PVs that satisfy me and I am not looking for the biggest hit or head buzz or anything like that. I don't let myself vape all the time. I didn't smoke all the time. I actually want to lower my nicotine dependency so I am planning to step down my nicotine (which will also let me vape more without worrying about too much nicotine, because I really enjoy vaping).

Some people seem to arrive here with opposite goals - a more hotrod mindset of wanting the biggest hit, the most vapor, and the highest nicotine they can get.

You are right about yummy flavors - I over-nicced myself one time on a Peach ejuice I couldn't put down. It also had little TH so I never felt done. So I have to avoid vaping flavors like that alone if they have nicotine in them.

But basically people have to be responsible. People abuse nicotine patches too, like wearing them and smoking at the same time.