My personal opinion on flavor bans

bombastinator2

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I see an issue the tobacco industry might find with flavor bans: it might not go well for them.

On the surface tobacco companies should love favor bans. Flavoring is what allows people to make money on juice, and it’s something they aren’t allowed to use. But I wonder if it will. Here’s the problem: the concept that e-cigs are even close to as dangerous to one’s health is prevalent, but it’s largely BS. And BS has a way of getting debunked eventually. So while there will always be a few people who actually believe the earth is flat the vast majority won’t. This is actually true of the political right too l. It’s fairly rare for conservatives to believe that the earth is flat. Only a few actually do. It’s actually an advantage because the people that don’t use it as ammunition to show their supposed sanity before talking about other stuff. (Just because you don’t believe THE most tested theory in the history of humankind {ref: Loran-c. Literally every time one got used, so maybe a couple million? And that’s just one device of hundreds} doesn’t mean there isn’t other stuff that is also bad. It’s just the most visibly ridiculous) Here’s the problem:

Even flavorless tastes better than cigarettes.

That they’re also drastically less likely to kill you ugly is something that seems to have been more-or-less successfully obfuscated by “anti-smoking” groups that, well, aren’t. But it can’t last forever.
As Lincoln once said “you can fool all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time”
A lot of those ads are focusing on the addictive nature of nicotine now. They appear to be maybe waking up a little. Not enough to try to undo the damage they’ve done, but at least there’s a lot less digging. The ads that e-cigs were filled with metal filings is largely gone, for example though the memory of them isn’t.

The kids that are already hopelessly addicted won’t move to cigs. At least not much. It won’t help. The cigarette companies are likely pushing for a complete ban, because only then will the hopelessly addicted be pushed to cigarettes and start dying in droves years from now. Australia seems to be on that path. It reminds me a bit of the whole hardyboard asbestos thing. Except of course more people will die.
 
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Rossum

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Even flavorless tastes better than cigarettes.
It does. I've been vaping unflavored more than anything else for many years now.

But unflavored (or tobacco flavored) doesn't have the "Wow, this tastes really good and I'd much rather puff on this than smoke a cigarette" factor that helps so many people quit smoking.

I don't think flavor bans will push very many people from vaping to cigarettes, but they very well might slow the transition from cigs to vaping.
 

bombastinator2

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It does. I've been vaping unflavored more than anything else for many years now.

But unflavored (or tobacco flavored) doesn't have the "Wow, this tastes really good and I'd much rather puff on this than smoke a cigarette" factor that helps so many people quit smoking.

I don't think flavor bans will push very many people from vaping to cigarettes, but they very well might slow the transition from cigs to vaping.
True.
 

dog man

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Seems what is missing here and in the thread about Menthol is it can be bought in liquid form and either drizzled on a cig or droplets into a Vape juice.
If you want a safe menthol or flavor 'vs' some synthetic blend, go to a Health Food Store and buy the flavors there.
Yes, it is an inconvenience but there is NO WAY the law will stop smokers of especially Vapers from getting what they want.
 

bombastinator2

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Well they can make it a lot harder with menthol if federal stuff comes out. It would be like ........ You can buy benzocaine online without a prescription and convert it ala breaking bad, but the second you do it becomes wildly illegal. (If I was the DEA I would be looking real hard at large or repeated online buys of benzocaine tablets. I’m sort of surprised it can even be done) Food flavorings you may be correct though.
Imagine someone extracting menthol from cough drops.
 

dog man

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True, but most viable and safe ''non synthetic'' flavors are straight up ''food flavors''.
You may want something that cant be purchased 'off the shelf' but I have always cautioned the worst danger to any Vape Fluid is the flavorings. Not the Nic or VG/PG .

So I ask You/anybody to be safe when choosing a flavored Vape fluid. Know the ingredients a seller is using before ingesting it.
 

UncLeJunkLe

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    Even flavorless tastes better than cigarettes.

    Well that's certainly subjective. Unflavored juice makes me gag. I don't like the sweetness of the VG without some minimal flavoring. I think it's just a psychological thing but I dunno.

    I can't go back to being a tobacco smoker because I can't stand the smell or the suffocation, but I'd rather pack my cheek with a nasty ole chaw and get a spittoon than vape flavorless.
     

    bombastinator2

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    Well that's certainly subjective. Unflavored juice makes me gag. I don't like the sweetness of the VG without some minimal flavoring. I think it's just a psychological thing but I dunno.

    I can't go back to being a tobacco smoker because I can't stand the smell or the suffocation, but I'd rather pack my cheek with a nasty ole chaw and get a spittoon than vape flavorless.
    The original flavoring was any pg based flavor (which is most of them) that was FDA baking safe (again most of them), has no oils or doacytel in it (I used to think diacytel was an oil but now I’m not so sure). There are a few flavorings that can cause problems long term. Anything with cinnamon oil is one example so most cinnamon flavored stuff is off limits (cinnamon red hot is a good example) also most butter flavored stuff. It’s not too hard to find food flavorings that work and are likely safe.
     

    dog man

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    The point I make is it;s the flavorings that are the worst of what's involved in Vape Fluids.
    The Alcohol sweeteners that are not alcohol, but instead Malitol or some other "ol" type synthetic can be harmful and is not suggested in the normal foods that they put them in, let alone something to be inhaled. You mentioned Cinnamon ,,, Yup.. Not good, Then to Vape multiple ML's a day of these (basically) poisons is over the edge.
    To get to the crux.,Moderation in how much you consume of all of these things is key.
    I'm personally experimenting with a 50/50% PG/VG base, ... add to that a Nic of around 14% and flavorings that are basically a Pipe like Tobacco and Black Cherry mix at a 2/3rds 1/3rd mix. Sweetness is minimal but present.
     

    bombastinator2

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    The point I make is it;s the flavorings that are the worst of what's involved in Vape Fluids.
    The Alcohol sweeteners that are not alcohol, but instead Malitol or some other "ol" type synthetic can be harmful and is not suggested in the normal foods that they put them in, let alone something to be inhaled. You mentioned Cinnamon ,,, Yup.. Not good, Then to Vape multiple ML's a day of these (basically) poisons is over the edge.
    To get to the crux.,Moderation in how much you consume of all of these things is key.
    I'm personally experimenting with a 50/50% PG/VG base, ... add to that a Nic of around 14% and flavorings that are basically a Pipe like Tobacco and Black Cherry mix at a 2/3rds 1/3rd mix. Sweetness is minimal but present.
    Had this argument before. With my step mother so my entire adult life. Chemicals are chemicals. Chemistry is chemistry. When you get down to the molecular level there ceases to be a difference. “Natural” is where they come from not what they are made of. “Natural” flavors aren’t any more natural than artificial ones. They’re just sourced differently. So instead of coal it’s the bark of some endangered tropical tree or something. It’s the same stuff.
    You can take a cow and feed it nothing but “artificial” stuff and it will be fine as long as you pay attention that it’s getting the right chemicals in the right amounts. It’s prohibitively expensive is all. If you have a problem with ethyl malitol you shouldn’t eat apples btw. They’ve got it in them. Your stomach won’t care if it’s from an apple or a tablet. Imho the best thing about organic is that there isn’t pieces of anti-biotics and pesticides in it. Thats it. Thats all. It’s worth it for that, but the sourcing of what the chemical we’re doing doesn’t matter. It’s which chemicals there are, and in what ratio.
     
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    UncLeJunkLe

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    The point I make is it;s the flavorings that are the worst of what's involved...

    I'm personally experimenting with a 50/50% PG/VG base, ... add to that a Nic of around 14% and flavorings that are basically a Pipe like Tobacco and Black Cherry mix at a 2/3rds 1/3rd mix

    1/3rd & 2/3rds mix? That's 33 & 66%! Talking about flavorings being bad for you? Am I missing something? I mix at 6% flavor total.
     
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    bombastinator2

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    1/3rd & 2/3rds mix? That's 33 & 66%! Talking about flavorings being bad for you? Am I missing something? I mix at 6% flavor.
    TLDNR: no.

    In which I explain why.
    Flavorings can change their chemical structure with enough heat, which a coil is capable of providing. This is why TC became a thing long ago. Keep the temperature below the point where that might happen. FDA Baking safe stuff is has been tested up to 450f. Cellulose burns at 451f this is a reason wicks are made of cotton. It’s cellulose. If the thing gets too hot the wick burns. A fuse of sorts. The cigarette companies developed tobaacco flavorings and tested them to numbers higher than that, which is why tobacco flavorings are argued for. It’s not the “tobacco” thing, it’s the testing thing. Test flavors at a higher temp to make sure they are stable and there isn’t even a potential theoretical problem. There are lots tested to 450 though. If you care, run TC below 450f and you’re fine with any fda baking flavor. Also your wick won’t burn. PG and VG have a boiling point under 212f anyway, so it’s pretty much impossible unless you dry hit. The only way for it to even possibly be a problem is to use a silica or asbestos wick, dry hit, and then you can burn stuff.
     
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    dog man

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    On flavors, I saw a article one time in Scientific America (some 3 decades ago) which compared the chemistry of various foods to other products. The one that stood out to me was Powdered Coffee Creamer matching very closely to Tide XK Laundry detergent. Now i don't like powdered creamers to begin with but it was an interesting breakdown.
    I drink a little Coke Sugar Free. It's told to me that it's not good and the false sugars are dangerous ... The "'ol's" I mentioned earlier. As I understand it ''Stevia'' is ok, yet the process to produce it is chemically scary. Preference is straight up sugar if possible.
    Either way, If I can get a flavoring ripe off the vine or tree, I'll prefer that over it's chemical counterparts. I may not be 100% accurate but what comes natural seems better to me than any Lab Produced imposter , counterpart or "tastes alike" (which rarely does).
    Is this 100% accurate? No and I agree with Your example, but at the same time we need to at least do a comparison before blindly ingesting it.

    Off topic a tad,,, I'll drink a occasional Protein Drink. 90% of them use Soy as a protein base. It turns into a false synthetic estrogen. That is not good for either gender...actually horrific.
    So I go for a Whey based (milk).
     

    bombastinator2

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    That you lump the “ol”s together in the first place is something of a red flag. It implies magical thinking. The reason supersweeteners don’t taste the same as regular sweeteners is because while they are many times as sweet they wash off the tongue at the same rate. Thus they have a “aftertaste”. Non sugar sweeteners of about the same power as sugars like xylitol don’t have this issue. They have a different one. Because they are generally indigestible, they act like soluble fiber and too much of them can give you the runs. Try eating a bunch of diabetic candy some time to experience this. I advise against it, but do as you wish. There are 3 types of reduced sugar sodas I know of. Stevia, aspartame, and one other (whose name I forget) all three are super sweeteners (usually somewhere around 100times sweeter than sugar though it varies a lot) stevia is mandated in Japan. Stevia actually competed with sugar in the colonial era but lost. It’s derived from the leaf of a tropical tree. One other is derived from orange peels. I forget which one. One of them is also dangerous to some rare individuals in a rather extreme manner. I don’t remember how.

    as for protein drinks, I am lactose intolerant (it gives me rather impressive gas) and I generally go for pea protein or ideally egg white protein, which is of course not vegan and is several times more expensive, but has the fewest negatives for me.
     
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    dog man

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    Yeah, I agree.
    There are immediate effects like a lactose issue and there are long term effects which can be quite dangerous. The more "organic' I can go the better. Mind you, I'm not a Health Food Nut, not Vegan, not even into paying for Organics, but what i do try to avoid is processed foods and chemicals from pesticides, and the likes.
    And yes, I cheat and have a diet Coke on occasion, but overall my diet is fairly good. To a Health Nut, they would differ in opinion.
    Seems the older we get the more cautions we take, I'm a 2x Prostate Cancer surviver since '08'. Last bout was last year. PSA is now zero. So some cautionary (yet not 100% tested) supplements are on my list.
    24mg of Ivermectin (known to kill off many cancers)
    180mg of Melatonin (also stops 'c's' from mastasizing (sp?))
    B-12 shots every week
    D'3 at 5000 mg a day
    And some general supplements and vitamins..
    Then the Nic since it is a cognitive aid.
    So, yeah at 69 I'm doing pretty good all considered. but living and living well is a challenge.
     

    bombastinator2

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    I eat a lot of vitamin D but it’s because I don’t go outside enough. Also one of the meds I take uses a lot of it. I try not to overdo it with melatonin because it’s useful as a sleep aid and I don’t want it to lose effect for that. There’s also a bunch of fish oil (for omega-3) because it’s supposed to help with depression and high blood pressure. And a multi-vitamin because my diet is garbage. Cover the basis on stuff I might have missed. I had calcium in there too for a while. Another thing medication eats. The stuff that’s easy to absorb is hella expensive though. Calcium absorption is difficult and a lot of the low cost ones don’t absorb very well.
     

    dog man

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    Bomb, Good, Yer on it.
    B-12 is hard to absorb so I inject it. D-3 is essential as 80-90% of the pop are dangerously low on it. Both are cheap and can be checked via a blood draw test. I'm sitting up on both sup's.
    We do as we feel necessary and hopefully we research instead of relying on Doc's who are rarely taught these things. I have a Holistic Doc who's pretty good, but I've gone one step further. I take the 24mg of Ivermectin for cancers and general health. It does Sooo Much there isn't time for me to list it's positives., It is also inexpensive if bought right at $.20c a pill. Problem is since Biden was elected , Doc's can't prescribe it excepting certain ailments, so I buy a 1000 tabs at a time from a overseas source and go around the system.

    What ever happened to "Right to try?", via Trump.

    Mind You, I don't want to get all Political here, but when they effect my health and well being, they piss me off.
     

    bombastinator2

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    D is a standard here in Minnesota. Pretty much everyone takes it during the cold months. SADs and whatnot. I ignore glucosamine and just eat tendon pho whenever I can. I like pho. Vastly better than Lutefisk imho. My stepmother is a Steinerist so I’m really familiar with holistic medicine. It’s crap. Serious hardcore crap. The only thing in it that has any value is vaccination, and they don’t really understand that so they “vaccinate” against everything. Poisons, etc.. It would be facepalm worthy except it has probably killed people. the woman wears moss on airplanes to protect from “cosmic radiation”. It’s asinine. It’s the kind of thinking that would burn down a 5g tower because they’re “dangerous”. That one is facepalm worthy. 5G isn’t going to kill anyone. Any radio tower is dangerous IF YOURE A FOOT AWAY from it. 10feet though, no. That’s a reason why THEY’RE TOWERS. There are people who understand such things. Steinerists aren’t them though. Doesn’t seem to stop em however.
     

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