looking for DIY test for Total Tobacco Alkaloids, or anything other-than Nic?

Status
Not open for further replies.

baphomet68

Full Member
Verified Member
Been happy making simple DIY NETS. I have now made an ethanol extraction, wanted to know how to test the result. I am comfortable & familiar with the simple DIY Nic test (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...st-mg-ml-nicotine-follow-up-dvaps-method.html) on the 'Forum. I wondered if this test will "see" just the Nicotine, or total amount of tobacco Alkaloids? Is there any way to discern, in a DIY sense, the ballpark Total tobacco Alkaloid content of a home extraction? (Or for that matter, of some extraction that you bought?)
If not the Total Tobacco Alkaloids, then is there a DIY / at-home way to test for one or more of the Tobacco Alkaloid gang? The closest I have come researching this topic has been to find some papers on detecting tobacco use through testing for Anatibine/etc metabolites in urine. Not as promising as I had hoped :(
 

DVap

Nicotiana Alchemia
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Aug 26, 2009
1,548
1,586
Most of the alkaloid content extracted during an ethanol extraction (or a NET extraction in general) will be in the salt form. As such, these salts are not amenable to titration. One forum member used a cold ethanol extraction awhile back and was able to get more alkaloid salts relative to the copious amounts of junk that a NET extraction typically pulls out. This resulted in a liquid that, while unable to approach WTA alkaloid levels, contained perhaps several times more alkaloid salts than a typical NET extraction (somewhat low -vs- very low levels).

When researching the alkaloid content of tobaccos, one often finds literature stating that the alkaloid content of many tobaccos are on the order or 2 - 3 percent. In practical terms, these figures are overly optimistic. In extraction after extraction, using many different tobaccos, I've found that 1.0 - 1.2% is about the limit of the alkaloid extraction. In other words, if I extract 100 grams of tobacco and process it to purify WTA, I'll end up with about 1 gram of purified WTA... and this from a very efficient extraction process.

On a good day, a PG-based NET extraction might pull out about half of the alkaloids present along with a great deal of non-alkaloidal tobacco material. This assumes using heat and a lot of contact time. An ethanol extraction might be expected to do a bit better. It depends largely on the amount of ethanol used and the contact time with the tobacco. Shorter NET extractions tend to be cleaner NET extractions, but they also contain fewer alkaloids.

It's very difficult for me to speculate on what the actual alkaloid concentration in a NET extraction might be. For example, if someone were to heat up 500 mL of PG and soak 100 grams of tobacco in that PG, perhaps 500 mg of alkaloid salts would be extracted. Of the 500 mL of PG, perhaps 100 mL would be lost due to being soaked into the tobacco, so 400 mL of NET could be recovered. This 400 mL of PG-based NET extract might contain 80% of half the alkaloids present in the tobacco (50% alkaloid removal and 80% PG recovery). In other words, the PG might pull out 500 mg of alkaloids, and 100 mg of the alkaloids would be retained by the PG left in the tobacco. So the alkaloid content of the PG-based NET would be 400 mg / 400 mL, or about 1 mg/mL. This is assuming that the NET extraction would not have to be further diluted to a vapable level.

The reason a WTA liquid can contain such greater alkaloid concentrations than a NET is the fact that the WTA process eliminates all the non-alkaloidal tobacco gunk. Thus, one can have a 24 or ever 36 mg WTA liquid that is only very lightly colored due to the alkaloids having been isolated from the rest of the tobacco material.
 

baphomet68

Full Member
Verified Member
Would it make sense to freebase a sample of such a Tobacco extraction, so as to be able to use your titration test? Or am I going to have to dedicate too much of my finished product to make a testable sample amount a viable option? Ex: I do a cold Ethanol extraction of 100 grams/Tobacco - vacc-filter, evaporate alcohol @ arrive at 2.5 grams thick oil result. Separate out .5 gram & combine w/2ml PG & (.5 gram Sodium Carbonate? Something better? basify?/free base the salts is what I want to do) - Use this approx. 3ml sample for your titration test? Or is my sample size just going to be too small to be useful - would I need to write off a whole gram of my final product (or more)? Or maybe writing off 40% might be worth it, to better guesstimate future runs w/same tobacco?
 

LucentShadow

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 28, 2011
936
2,436
Michigan, USA
Would it make sense to freebase a sample of such a Tobacco extraction, so as to be able to use your titration test? Or am I going to have to dedicate too much of my finished product to make a testable sample amount a viable option? Ex: I do a cold Ethanol extraction of 100 grams/Tobacco - vacc-filter, evaporate alcohol @ arrive at 2.5 grams thick oil result. Separate out .5 gram & combine w/2ml PG & (.5 gram Sodium Carbonate? Something better? basify?/free base the salts is what I want to do) - Use this approx. 3ml sample for your titration test? Or is my sample size just going to be too small to be useful - would I need to write off a whole gram of my final product (or more)? Or maybe writing off 40% might be worth it, to better guesstimate future runs w/same tobacco?

I'd like to take a stab at answering this. I'm fine with being corrected by someone who knows more than I.

I'm sure that you can't just freebase the alkaloids using an alkali, and then do an accurate titration for alkaloids. To be sure that you've converted all of the salts, you'd need to have an excess of your chosen alkali. You can't even know how much would be required. That excess alkali would be mostly responsible for whatever your titration result would be.

I've done a simple distillation after basifying an extract, and titrated the distillate, but I'm unsure of how well any alkaloids carry over to the distillate. I also suspect that some of the aromatic molecules carried over, other than alkaloids, may also skew the results. I doubt that titration would be accurate on anything but rigorously isolated alkaloids.

Seems to me the best course would be to use DVap's numbers in this and the cold ethanol extraction thread.
 

baphomet68

Full Member
Verified Member
What I am taking away from the great replies from Dvap, LucentShadow (Thank you both), is that it is not really possible to accomplish my goal (getting an accurate read on Nic./Tob. Alkaloids from a home extraction) without adding some substantial processing steps & access to/purchase of lab equipment well beyond what typical DIY hobbyists possess. I appreciate you both taking the time to explain why this is the case, rather than just posting a brief version of my "take away".

Am getting some TLC plates from a family member to experiment with home chromatography, and researching a huge pile of toxicology research related to tobacco & nicotine - may get some useful info re: exposing diluted extracts to nicotine-sensitive tiny creatures (CA Blackworms look promising, with very specific, well documented responses to differing levels of nicotine exposure). If I get anywhere with these two other approaches, I will post whatever I learn.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread