LIQUA... Have we found a loophole ?

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John Phoenix

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I believe the op has a good point. E-juice could be made either from synthetic nicotine ( I see no reason why labs could not find a way to make it as strong as organic nicotine, they do it with every other drug known to man) or with nicotine extracted from something other than tobacco. Problem is up till now, there has really been no need for these things to come to fruition. I bet if someone with some money threw some labs into developing one or the other a new nicotine product could be produced in relativity short time. This would effectively bring e-cigs out of the realm of tobacco regulation.

This is doable. Someone go for it. ( I just know several multimillionaires are browsing this thread)
 

Spazmelda

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could they not get some from Aubergine and clone it ?

Nicotine isn't a protein, so you can't just clone it. You'd have to engineer an organism that had all the proteins used in the pathway that makes nicotine (I'm guessing). I don't really know anything about the pathway that produces nicotine, but I do know it wouldn't be just as easy as cloning it, unfortunately. Also, since nicotine is a poison, I'm guessing you'd have to find some way to keep that organism from dying when it started producing lots of nicotine.

Also, it would probably be easier to start with an organism that already makes nicotine, like eggplant or tomato, since the nicotine biosynthesis pathway is obviously already there, and just modify the regulation of it to make it produce more.
 
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windwalker

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Just thought I'd toss of few of my cents into the discussion...

First: Being this is a discussion on Legislation Circumvention, we need to really look at the roots of the laws we seek to bypass - Ie: What is the Legal definition of Tobacco?

We likely are all well familiar with the relatively new 2009 TCA wording: "Tobacco Products are anything including, made from, or derived from tobacco" . . . This is new wording, and relatively untested. The ATF (TTB) still uses the IRS definitions of Tobacco Products which use the wording "Made of or including at least 50% Tobacco". This is why the ATF (TTB) doesn't care about e-cigs. It's the distinction "derived from" creates...

...and for right now, it is that distinction which is allowing our beloved cottage industry to thrive, and lets us ship our E-cigs accross state lines without state by state stamps...

So we're talking about here, as with all legal and legislation topics, is matters of extremely precise definitions...

So, for this concept to work (non-tobacco based nicotine going unregulated) - we need to understand the specific definitions of 'Derived From' and 'tobacco' . . . Mind you, we aren't looking for common or agreed upon definitions, we are looking for are the ultra-specific legal definitions of these terms. For example: If the legislators want to define anything that is Solanaceae as Tobacco, they can do that, and then they use selective enforcement to skip tomatoes and eggplants.

First, "Derived From" - This is where they get you coming and going. 'Derived from' has no formal definition. Common sense says it means 'Directly or in part a product or reduction of an existing thing'. But legally, that's not exactly what it means - the legal definition can be coaxed to mean: "Inspired By". . . Now, that may seem silly, but that doesn't stop it from being true. Synthetic Nicotine that has no link to tobacco can be considered 'derived from tobacco' insomuch as it is 'inspired by the simulation of tobacco' . . . Most good judges wouldn't allow that, but the law is vague enough in this area that I wouldn't place my stock in the synthetic nicotine argument and hope for it to hold up under regulatory politics...


So next is, Tobacco: Family - Solanaceae, Genus - Nicotiana. It is not technically tobacco which is regulated, it is in fact anything in the Genus Nicotiana. Or anything derived from anything in the genus Nicotiana.

So, synthetic is a possibility, but it's cost prohibitive, ineffective, and in practice some clever bureaucrat will change the wording from 'Synthetic Nicotine' to 'Synthetic Tobacco' and the open up the floodgates of the 'derived from argument' (a synthetic can be said to be 'derived from' it's original even if it has not physical link to the original). . .

Eggplants, tomatoes, and Potatoes are also cost prohibitive and essentially impractical to even consider...

But there is a hopeful from down under: Duboisia Hopwoodii a shrub from Australia can be grown in many climates, has as much or greater nicotine density per square acre as the Nicotiana's, is a Solanceae, is not a Nicotiana, has a very similar alkoloid profile to tobacco, and can be extracted without first curing... It's cheap, hearty, grows like a shrubb, and puts out a formidable amount of nicotine that in some varieties and at some seasons can be greater per leaf than tobacco...

So why aren't we already seeing Duboisia hopwoodii everywhere? Why don't we already smoke it? Well, for one, it's a shrubb, it doesn't lend itself to curing the way the long leafs of tobacco do, so when smoked it is harsh.
Second: It doesn't have the rich flavor taste of cured tobacco. Third: It has hyoscyamine in it's alkoloid profile. Not a huge amount, but if harvested incorrectly (wrong time of year) you can get pretty big (full on hallucinatory levels) of hyoscyamine.

So what is hyoscyamine? Well, not nearly as reactive as Scopalomine, it is pretty similar in it's effects, which can at high levels include: dry mouth and throat, eye pain, blurred vision, restlessness, dizziness, arrhythmia, flushing, faintness, cause headache, nausea, vomiting, and central nervous system symptoms including disorientation, hallucinations, euphoria, sexual arousal, short-term memory loss, and possible coma in extreme cases. Some people can experience transient combativeness.

Personally, none of those really bother me, they are all a lot better than throat cancer as I'm concerned...

But if one of you clever O-chemists can distill out the hyoscamine, the rest of us can enjoy a totally organic source of none Nicotianic Nicotine that will basically bypass all this current round of legislation... Convince some farmers to grow it stateside, create some jobs, and viola! You'll have revolutionized the world of vaping...
 

DC2

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But if one of you clever O-chemists can distill out the hyoscamine, the rest of us can enjoy a totally organic source of none Nicotianic Nicotine that will basically bypass all this current round of legislation... Convince some farmers to grow it stateside, create some jobs, and viola! You'll have revolutionized the world of vaping...
I'd like the option to include the hallucinogen please.
:D
 

Baldr

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Seems like advertising

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk

Yes, it does. I don't see any difference in what they are selling and what the other vendors are selling.

Do you, by chance, see the irony in your message?

/sent from my keyboard by typing with my fingers. It's a Dell 1.8ghz system with 4 gig of ram, as if that matters to anyone.
 

Spazmelda

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I got a response from the email I sent them.

Form details below.
Full Name: my name
Email: myname@gmail.com
Telephone:
Message: Hello there. I'm hoping you can clear something up for me. Is your LIQUA eLiquid purified from tobacco or is it purified from some other source?

Thank you very much!

Hello.
Liqua has nicotine extracted from tobacco. It is really high quality product.

Regards
Bart

myname was actually my name, but I edited that out. Just in case anyone was wondering...
 
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DoctorRiboh

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Ritchy Electronic Cigarettes these are the manufacturers , the link I sent in the original post is just the shop in Ireland where I get my juice from,

I have emailed the manufacturers directly if this turns out to be a hoax I will be very disapointed but I will post up what they say on here.
 
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DoctorRiboh

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Dear Doctor Riboh

Thanks for your interest

We surely produce nicotine from tobacco leaf
However it passes USP purification - say 99.9% purity

So we can state that its contents only nicotine and is purified from other alkaloids and toxins
As USP nicotine over 2-3 times more expensive raw material than low grade nicotine most of manufacturers of e-liquid and e-cigarettes prefer to save costs on this component

As i understand your main concern is whether it is less harmful than traditional cigarette and other e liquid
we believe to say yes, it is
1st - smoking traditional cigarette is completely different process compared with e-cigarettes
traditional cigarette are burning and while this, due to high temperatures up to 600-800 C) lots of chemical reactions produce the smog with over 4000 different chemical elements including very toxic ones
While when you use e-cigarette, through atomization process it produces vapor (or better say fog) we control that in our e-cigs temperature do not exceed 150 C, so e-liquid itself doesn't change it's chemical structure and just becomes a fog

2nd - other e-liquds as we mentioned may not content USP ingredients (PG, VG, nicotine) that we uses so far we consider they may be more harmful

Anyway we do not claim that our e-liquids or e-vaping is safe as they still content nicotine that is toxic, however we believe we provide the safest alternative in the market.

Hope my answers been helpful for you
Please do not hesitate to ask any other questions


So this was the response, Technically it's false advertizing in a way but they still rank as my favorite for the Grape and cherry juices.

It was nice to get some scientific info along the way too , oh well...

I can't see myself stopping buying them to be honest if it's the same case as all the others.

and before the trolls ask... No, I don't feel silly at all.
 

Iffy

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DoctorRiboh

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