How valid are vaping health claims?

[0ogier]

Yes I agree Kate . There are a lot of unknowns and opinions.
I think that, erring on the side of caution, in the long run , may be, the better option.

Alas I think the long term evidence from users of ecigs will always be flawed. After all the vast majority of people who now use the ecigs, are ex smokers. and have already done damage to their health.

Hopefully we will learn more .

Regards

0ogier

 

[0ogier]

Double post ---- doh

 

[TropicalBob]

Bless this little corner of intelligent discussion ...

Kate's questions are valid and the reason why sellers should not make any health claims. None. Zip. Zero. We know nothing -- for certain. Even the Ruyan tests are incomplete.

Leaford's points are an excellent summary of what we've all weighed and concluded. I e-smoke. I do not make phony claims to others when asked if they should e-smoke. I don't encourage them; I don't discourage them. I tell what I concluded, and that I e-smoke. The e-cigs are part of a plan I have to stay off cigarettes.

The end point here is that e-smoking has been damaged -- perhaps irreparably -- by false claims made by sellers. We, as users, can state our personal opinions. Sellers can't make any claim they cannot prove, in the strictest, most scientific and legal definition of proof.

Yet some continue to do just that. I hear the roof creaking. Sounds like it could collapse under one more "healthier than cigarettes" sales pitch. And we're all in the room below.

 

[Kate]

I think it's clear that we have no reliable evidence about vaping so to make health claims is to potentially mislead by presenting assumption as fact. For vested interests this could have legal implications - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/law-e-cigarette/4766-lawsuits-coming.html

Lets move on.

"Medicine first proves that there IS a risk, then evaluates the degree of risk, and then balances that against the likely benefit." - Leaford

It might be handy to compile some responses to the risks already mentioned and any others that might arise to make it easier for people to assess their personal risk and to form opinions on the degree of benefit.

Here are the points already raised, some background and current responses:

We can take in large doses of nicotine which is a toxin.

Logic says that we can take in much more nicotine than with smoking although Ruyan research suggests less per puff (I dispute their figures, see - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/6525-draws-puffs-per-ml.html and http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...7216-can-someone-help-me-math.html#post110153). We can also vape and get zero nicotine so I'd say it's a matter of education and making informed, responsible choices with available nicotine levels.

We don't know for sure how much of the nicotine we use transfers from liquid to our bloodstreams. Anecdotal evidence suggests that it can be well above our tolerance levels.

We don't know what prolonged inhaling of glycerine or PEG400 does to our bodies.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ble-glycerine-glycerol-safety-discussion.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-new-ingredient-instead-pg-vg.html#post91677

We don't know what prolonged inhaling of other additives and flavourings in eliquid does to our bodies.

"... I do think artificial flavors are a potential concern, and the biggest unknown..." - Leaford

GRAS (generally regarded as safe) chemicals may be safe to ingest but assumptions about safety to inhale are not valid - diacetyl, a food flavouring causes lung disease.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...oking/2666-inhaling-flavouring-chemicals.html

I guess assessing this risk requires information on ingredients in the eliquid we use, knowledge about our exposure levels (chronic/mild?) and information on how particular chemicals react and accumulate.
Dose-response relationship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We don't know how the cocktail of chemicals we inhale interacts.



We don't know if there are chemicals given off by the atomiser coil wick as it degrades.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...anufacturers-suppliers-whats-my-atomizer.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...12335-analysis-black-gunk-atomizer-coils.html

We don't know what type of plastics are used for storage or cartridges and if they leech chemicals.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/2519-bpa-concern-e-smoking.html

"Most plastics do have to pass conformity tests." - 0ogier


We don't know what chemicals are given off by cartridge fillers when they are heated or burned.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/992-danger-filter.html


We don't know about what sort of paint is used on devices, it could contain lead.

"Lead in paint - RoHS certification. Yes admittedly only for those tested but that is the same as enything."
- 0ogier

We don't know if there is a safety risk with having a battery/power supply so close to our faces.

"Battery / power supply close to head - I suppose you can look at mobile phones and hearing aids." - 0ogier

Faulty switches, chargers or batteries could cause fires.

"Charger safety risk / faults - CE certification" - 0ogier

We don't know if standards of hygiene or purity of product are maintained effectively at manufacturing facilities because there is no regulation of production.

"Hygene standards . Again by certification. ( in the case of my supplierSGS GMP Codex ,food hygene) ." - 0ogier

I might be wrong here but I've only noticed Chinese manufacturers getting certification for eliquid. European and US eliquid makers don't bother to voluntarily have tests done and don't have any regulation to make them comply with good standards for hygiene or ingredients?




EDIT
"... there is no regulation of production..."

To clarify, I don't know what standards authorities are enforcing worldwide but as far as I know there are no regulations covering production of eliquid anywhere, just voluntary good practice checks and balances. Hardware is probably covered by guidelines for electrical and other appliances but not specific standards (for example relating to composition of coil wicks, etc)..

I made a dog's dinner of this edit, I hope it's back to being readable now.

 

[0ogier]

On one note in regards to the cartridge filler. Having thought about this over the weekend. and done some digging. ( - yes Im sad. should have been playing golf.)
I have developed an idea / concept that would eliminate the polyester wadding. in certain ecig models. And remove that area of concern totally.

I am currently in contact with my supplier/ manufacturer as to the feasability of such a modification. And will let you know the outcome, once they have checked over my initial 3d data designs.


Regards

0ogier

 

[C-kool Dad '09]

Boy, am I glad you brought this up. Here is my opus mini 'rantve' (rant/rave):

Recently got my 1st e-cig from a US internet supplier who gets his products from Hong Kong. I ordered one bottle of falvoured e-liquid. This bottle had no label on it listing ingredients (I understand some do).

After 40 years of smoking I am wondering if this is such a good idea.

In attempting to 'get with' this e-cig it ocurred to me that it sure would be a lot more convienient if I didn't have to Worry about supplies if I could go anywhere you can by an analog. (This could result in massive regulation/taxation) unless sold much like 'gadgets' or penis enlargement pills for example. I am not saying this is the way to go necessarily.

The "Chinese" thing has concerns for me. Just the other day there was an article about Chinese dry-wall that was used in Florida with negative unintended consequences.

I'm not affraid so much as I just think things could be better. Then again I guess it was 'Kent' with the microline filtre that turned out to have asbestos in it. It's a dangerous world out there one way or another.

 

[Klimpt]

Sorry, this question must have been asked and answered a million times but I can't find a relevent thread on it just now: has anyone analyzed the actual vapour? It must be relatively simple to capture some vapour and it must be a relatively simple (and cheap) lab procedure to test for its composition. After all, what's in the vapour is really all the matters, right?

 

[Kate]

I don't think I've seen an analysis of vapour yet. A UK company, Intellicig, reckon they will be producing a report on vapour for their new eliquid any day now. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[0ogier]

If you dont mind me putting in my couple of pennys again.

Ill try and explain why I believe analysing a vapour in this instance and getting an accurate respresentaion is nigh on impossible.

OK, The analysyis machines will accurately record what goes into them. of that I hope we can all agree.

Now please imagine what is actually happening on and around the atomiser.

The ecig-liquid / e-liquid is vapourised by a heating element. ie It reaches a state where the liquid reaches gaseous form. But does not ignite ( important)

I define the word 'state' in this instance -as where the molecules become so energy rich that they can no longer form bonds together. the energy comming from the heating element and not from a combustion source. ( Burning)

E-liquid / Ecig liquid Is a mixture of different compounds. All of these compounds have different sizes and shapes and weights.

Now Ive set up a few explanatory ground rules I will hopefully try to analogise the theory. ( apologies if analogise is not the correct form of the word analogy)

Imagine a cup full of museli. You tip this cup infront of a fan .
The wind from the fan , blows the different bits of the museli different distances. According to size weight surface areas etc.
The stronger the fan the greater the distances the bits of the museli are blown..

So if you imply the fan = the atomiser and the ecig liquid / e-liquid = the museli. the resultant blown museli the vapour . Im sure you can see the inherent problem that arises.

Different fans = different results.

the only constant is the museli.

With so many atomisers / battery combinations / Amount of draw. out there a vapour analysis could only really be attached to a single type of atomiser sucked in a certain way. with a certain voltage in the battery, for a certain time.

I Hope this helps.

Sorry If I waffled too much.

Regards

0ogier

 

[strayling]

With so many atomisers / battery combinations / Amount of draw. out there a vapour analysis could only really be attached to a single type of atomiser sucked in a certain way. with a certain voltage in the battery, for a certain time.

Good analogy. I think it would be possible to determine a range of values by varying the parameters in a controlled manner. It might be that the variation turns out to be insignificant, because the liquid never gets hot enough to react, only to undergo a phase change to vapour. Like everyone else I would love to see the results of the testing.

 

[HappyGirl]

I am not one for bringing the negative to this as I personally WANT it to be healthier for me or I wouldn't have been researching this for myself.
I am doing a research paper right now on another angle.
I am a Registered Dental Hygienist. I work at the Pentagon on Active Duty military only. A big part of my job is tobacco cessation counseling. (I know, who am I? but it's my job....) My concern for my patients is if the PG is converted to glycogen, what effect does this vapor have on the oral cavity in relation to caries (decay)? This may not seem like a big deal to you, but it has the potential to be huge. Remember when Mountain Dew came out and the American Dental Association coined the term "Mountain Dew Mouth" due to the huge population of young kids developing a certain pattern of blow out decay? We could potentially be dealing with the same thing here. I have ways to combat this, so I still think vaping has to be gennerally better for you, but still, a valid point to consider that I will be researching.

One other point on the glycol....what about diabetics....could this throw off their sugar readings if the body is burning this as sugar?

I appreciate all of you who have contributed such great ideas to this forum!

 

[Klimpt]

For crying out loud, I can't believe all the conscientious and smart people on this forum haven't got together to get some vapour tested. You'd probably get it done by a commercial lab or university for peanuts. It is such a simple and cheap thing to get done and would be better than a million letters to politicians or phone calls to Chines factories.

I'd organise it myself but I think it should probably be done by someone with a longer posting history here. C'mon, someone do it.

 

[jonny123456]

That's a good point Cleo, I forgot about the toxicology tests.

Ruyan and Wicked eliquids have been assessed by labs for toxic ingredients.

ok so everyone is certain that Ruyan liquid is 100 percent safe right? cause i got sum today

 

[calligal]

I am not one for bringing the negative to this as I personally WANT it to be healthier for me or I wouldn't have been

One other point on the glycol....what about diabetics....could this throw off their sugar readings if the body is burning this as sugar?

I appreciate all of you who have contributed such great ideas to this forum!

On another topic which may need to be included into this one regarding diabetics
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...left-one-my-e-juice-reviews-2.html#post196492

I think we are now wondering why you brought up that glycol could affect a diabetic because it seems that it may indeed be a possibility if using the sweet flavors supposedly trigger the brain to release glucose into the body?

As for me though I would like for all of Kates questions to be answered one of my main concerns is that we want to be able to say our vapor is harmless to others. Is it? One late afternoon I noticed that my vapor was not dissolving into thin air but lingering thickly into the air as it meandered by my nonsmoking husbands face. It was thick enough that he waved it away. So what is he breathing in?

 

[Letzin Hale]

I don't think I've seen an analysis of vapour yet. A UK company, Intellicig, reckon they will be producing a report on vapour for their new eliquid any day now. I'll believe it when I see it.

Oh ye of little faith! Have you not checked the Intellicig website lately?
True to their word they have posted a report on their liquid and it includes testing the vapour, particularly for the presence of acrolein which has been discussed at length on here with all kinds of suppositions.
Certainly the report showed no known dangers with the ingredients whether in liquid or vapour form. As with many things I suppose it remains the users' choice.
I think it costs more to test than a bag of peanuts!;-)
See the report here.
Alan.

 

[Letzin Hale]

For crying out loud, I can't believe all the conscientious and smart people on this forum haven't got together to get some vapour tested. You'd probably get it done by a commercial lab or university for peanuts. It is such a simple and cheap thing to get done and would be better than a million letters to politicians or phone calls to Chines factories.

I'd organise it myself but I think it should probably be done by someone with a longer posting history here. C'mon, someone do it.

You don't have to do it but please, at least get a quote on the price before making claims about it being simple and cheap. Your excuse for not doing it is lame.
Alan.

 

[leaford]

Sorry, this question must have been asked and answered a million times but I can't find a relevent thread on it just now: has anyone analyzed the actual vapour? It must be relatively simple to capture some vapour and it must be a relatively simple (and cheap) lab procedure to test for its composition. After all, what's in the vapour is really all the matters, right?

Here's Health New Zealand's
Safety Report on the Ruyan[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]® [/FONT][/FONT]e-cigarette Cartridge and Inhaled Aerosol
.

 

[Klimpt]

You don't have to do it but please, at least get a quote on the price before making claims about it being simple and cheap. Your excuse for not doing it is lame.
Alan.

Ok, maybe it was, but I've only been at this a week so really don't know my e-smoking .... from my e-smoking elbow. I really wouldn't be an ideal person for the job. As for the cost of a lab test, I know for certain that a university lab would do it for an amount measured at the modest end of thousands of dollars. Probably a few pennies from every registered member here.

I didn't mean the brusque tone, was just striving for rhetorical effect.

 

[strayling]

ok so everyone is certain that Ruyan liquid is 100 percent safe right? cause i got sum today

I'm willing to bet that it isn't as bad for you as regular cigarettes.

 

[TropicalBob]

Ruyan does not sell liquid. Just carts.