How long is a "burst?"

[Baditude]

A) The pulse rating is the only thing that matters to our use. Only rating. Im not vaping for 30min straight, are you?

B) was pointing out a flaw in your and dr g's argument.

Sorry, but you failed to understand what we have been saying. Our use of these batteries is not approved by the manufacturers of these batteries. They are not intended for solo use or without over-current safety protection. We are using them in an unapproved device in an inappropriate application according to them. And then we have people like you who use them over-spec and somehow rationalize that it is safe just because you have not vented a battery yet.

I think it is you that has a flaw in your logic, not me or dr g.

 

[Wraith504]

I agree that we are not using them for their intended purpose, however i will say that in most peoples logic if you hear the term pulse and compare that to continuous, continuous would mean that the battery circuit is completed for a sustained amount of time. Of course how long is not specified. When we vape we never have the circuit completed for much longer than 5 - 10 secs at a time unless you have ungodly huge lungs and a really heavy lead finger. So thinking this way would tell you that you are Pulsing the circuit on..vape off no vape on vape off no vape. There is absolutely nothing continuous about it.

 

[Wraith504]

All of that said i still do not draw more than 27a from the vtcs leaving the 3a wiggle room.

 

[AzPlumber]

A pulse rating is absolutely meaningless if you don't know the length of time required between pulses. It is also meaningless if you don't know how many pulses and resting periods a cell can safely sustain.

 

[Dampmaskin]

continuous would mean that the battery circuit is completed for a sustained amount of time. Of course how long is not specified.

No, but I believe it is defined: Until the battery is drained.

When we vape we never have the circuit completed for much longer than 5 - 10 secs at a time unless you have ungodly huge lungs and a really heavy lead finger.

Or you put the mod in your pocket without locking it, or you set it down on the table and it auto-fires. It happens. Sooner or later it will happen to you, too. It's just a question of time.

 

[Wraith504]

No, but I believe it is defined: Until the battery is drained.
Sounds like you dont understand what continuous means.
Or you put the mod in your pocket without locking it, or you set it down on the table and it auto-fires. It happens. Sooner or later it will happen to you, too. It's just a question of time.

This really has no bearing on the intended use of the battery for a vaper. Accidents happen in all things we do in life. your gonna burn the crap out of your leg even if your only drawing 10amps. Be realistic.

 

[Wraith504]

Battery safety will not save you from human error. Thats another "Be Realistic" statement.

 

[Dampmaskin]

I am being realistic. And I know that accidents happen. That is exactly why I am saying this.

Your argument is akin to saying that one should not use seat belts because they don't prevent you from crashing.

 

[Wraith504]

I am being realistic. And I know that accidents happen. That is exactly why I am saying this.

Your argument is akin to saying that one should not use seat belts because they don't prevent you from crashing.

Wrong. The seat belt can save you in any case. Knowing battery safety will not stop you from burning a hole in your pocket regardless of the amperage draw from the battery if your mod is autofiring. You will burn a hole in your pocket no matter what, one will just happen a bit faster than the other. Try and make a valid comparison next time.

 

[Wraith504]

Now as far as time for the battery my math may be a hair off, but the vtc5 is rated 2600 mah at 30amps. That means it can safely discharge 30 amps for approx 5 minutes and 30 seconds give or take a few seconds. Please tell me who you know that holds a fire button with a 30 amp draw on any mod for anything close to that amount of time. Even on autofire in your pocket you would drop your pants long before 2 minutes.

 

[AzPlumber]

Now as far as time for the battery my math may be a hair off, but the vtc5 is rated 2600 mah at 30amps. That means it can safely discharge 30 amps for approx 5 minutes and 30 seconds give or take a few seconds. Please tell me who you know that holds a fire button with a 30 amp draw on any mod for anything close to that amount of time. Even on autofire in your pocket you would drop your pants long before 2 minutes.

This is precisely the point. If your setup is within the continuous amp limit you have minutes to react when a auto-fire happens. If your setup to rely on a pulse rating to keep you safe you have seconds to react in an auto-fire situation.

 

[Dampmaskin]

Wrong. The seat belt can save you in any case. Knowing battery safety will not stop you from burning a hole in your pocket regardless of the amperage draw from the battery if your mod is autofiring. You will burn a hole in your pocket no matter what, one will just happen a bit faster than the other.

A mod autofiring at 10 watts may get hot, but it will not burn a hole in a pocket. A venting battery will.

A mod autofiring at any watts will not blow big chunks of flesh off your thigh. A mod with a venting battery might.

And for some reason you are ignoring the scenario where the mod autofires on a table?

Now as far as time for the battery my math may be a hair off, but the vtc5 is rated 2600 mah at 30amps. That means it can safely discharge 30 amps for approx 5 minutes and 30 seconds give or take a few seconds. Please tell me who you know that holds a fire button with a 30 amp draw on any mod for anything close to that amount of time. Even on autofire in your pocket you would drop your pants long before 2 minutes.

How about autofire in a handbag or purse? Autofire in a cup holder of a car? Autofire in a backpack? Autofire in a mod carrying case?

Autofire on a table?

Try and make a valid comparison next time.

The comparison was valid the first time.

Try and think this through.

 

[dr g]

Wrong. The seat belt can save you in any case. Knowing battery safety will not stop you from burning a hole in your pocket regardless of the amperage draw from the battery if your mod is autofiring. You will burn a hole in your pocket no matter what, one will just happen a bit faster than the other. Try and make a valid comparison next time.

You have just described why mech mods in general are unsafe and constitute misuse of all lithium ion batteries. This is why I advocate for the elimination of mech mods from vaping. They simply are not safe devices ... they are metal-cased battery shorters. I can hardly think of a less safe way to achieve our goals.

The human brain is not a safety feature. There are 7 billion of them on earth and every one behaves differently.

 

[beckdg]

I am going to have to whole heartedly disagree with a very fundamental part of this discussion. Once we pin this down to realistic terms things should become much clearer. However, it is my belief that agreeing on proprietary terms that have real world clearly defined meanings are hard to swallow until the proprietor of the term publishes their definition of said term and distributes it widely... and majority of those concerned with it see it with their own eyes.

I have been playing with battery tech for a long time and under no certain terms have I ever seen anything that suggests that continuous ratings translate to a dictionary definition for the word continuous. More often the word continuous relates directly to the industry for which the batteries were originally marketed for and how continuous would relate in terms of said market. For example... High intensity led flashlights commonly have 3 intensity levels. You'd keep your light on the lowest level except for short bursts of a minute or so when more light was needed. Otherwise any CREE led flashlight that runs on a single cell would run a maximum of 30 to 40 minutes and be useless for most outdoor activities.

So continuous is a proprietary term for each product and CONTINUOUS DOES NOT MEAN FROM FULL TO EMPTY BUT RATHER CAN PEAK AT THAT CURRENT DURING CONTINUOUS USE. THERE IS NO TIME LIMIT OR PERCENTAGE OF CAPACITY DEFINED... EVER... ASK YOURSELF WHY.

ADDIT; makes sense in terms of the Sony vtc5 that overheats @ 20 amps yet is rated at 30... and vtc4 that suffers massive voltage drops... and AW 1600 that does the same... well below 20 amps... and the even more bogus efest ratings... add infinitum. ..

We need to rethink what continuous means to us because we as a community certainly have it all wrong and the batteries performances are clearly defining that whether we're paying attention or not.

 

[Baditude]

This is precisely the point. If your setup is within the continuous amp limit you have minutes to react when a auto-fire happens. If your setup to rely on a pulse rating to keep you safe you have seconds to react in an auto-fire situation.

This is an extremely important point. Take for instance the battery and mod that exploded at the Vape Blast meet a couple of weeks ago. Vape Blast had a Vape Blast



No one knows the build or battery used in this device, because the owner took off and disappeared as soon as the accident occured. This person's mod autofired in his pocket. He screamed out in pain as he struggled to pull the mod out of his pocket and then threw the mod down on the floor. Upon impact, the mod exploded like a live grenade, splattering chunks of metal shrapnel into the ceiling and catching the carpet on fire. It was a miracle no one got badly injured.

More than likely this person was using the pulse ratings for his build because he was at a cloud chasing event. He only had seconds to remove the mod before it exploded. Had he been using a build taking into consideration the continuous discharge rating and not the pulse rating, there's a possibility the coil might have burnt out before the battery goes into thermal runaway, thereby having minutes and not seconds to react.

The most important point to take away from this is understanding that using the pulse rating allows no room for error. You are operating above the stated limits of the battery before failure of the battery. Pulse limits by industry definition do not apply because we are not using current protection circuits in our mechanical mods.

 

[Rossum]

You have just described why mech mods in general are unsafe and constitute misuse of all lithium ion batteries. This is why I advocate for the elimination of mech mods from vaping. They simply are not safe devices ... they are metal-cased battery shorters.

Not all mech mods are metal. I've got a couple made of wood, and I have good reason to believe that there will soon be some made of 3D printed plastic. The wooden ones have 10A fuses in them. With 30A ("continuous") batteries in them, I think risk of a battery venting event is no higher than in a metal regulated mod. But in any case, no vaper should be advocating to limit the choices other vapers have available to them.

 

[dr g]

Not all mech mods are metal. I've got a couple made of wood, and I have good reason to believe that there will soon be some made of 3D printed plastic. The wooden ones have 10A fuses in them. With 30A ("continuous") batteries in them, I think risk of a battery venting event is no higher than in a metal regulated mod. But in any case, no vaper should be advocating to limit the choices other vapers have available to them.

The casing material is not why mechs are unsafe, but metal has additional issues as noted.

When it comes to safety, I disagree that choices should never be limited. Technically choices aren't limited but liability will affect commercial availability. We're skating by on battery robustness, but that bomb that went off at vapefest very nearly changed the face of vaping. It's probably only a matter of time.

Most mech mods built to run very high wattage do not have fuses. Fuses help, but are only one of the safety measures required of all li-ion powered devices. And the safety measures are supposed to be integral with the battery.

Some might question why you would opt for mechanical and limit output to 10A. And as you have seen in this thread, mech mod users aren't erring on the safe side of the continuous rating.

 

[k702]

The casing material is not why mechs are unsafe, but metal has additional issues as noted.

When it comes to safety, I disagree that choices should never be limited. Technically choices aren't limited but liability will affect commercial availability. We're skating by on battery robustness, but that bomb that went off at vapefest very nearly changed the face of vaping. It's probably only a matter of time.

Most mech mods built to run very high wattage do not have fuses. Fuses help, but are only one of the safety measures required of all li-ion powered devices. Some might question why you would opt for mechanical and limit output to 10A. And as you have seen in this thread, mech mod users aren't erring on the safe side of the continuous rating.

Bleh, all I heard was ban.... tired of that word honestly. With the big words taken into account and all, a mechanical is no different than a flashlight, I suppose you'll want whoever to go after them next? Why do you err on the side of punishing those who like ans use mech mods safely, because there are * shocked face * people who don't act/aren't smart in the world.

Are we 5? Did someone speak out of turn in class? Do we all have to stay over 5 minutes now? Come on.

 

[Dampmaskin]

I suspect you'll be even more tired of the word "ban" if/when e-cigs are ... y'know ... banned.

 

[dr g]

Bleh, all I heard was ban.... tired of that word honestly. With the big words taken into account and all, a mechanical is no different than a flashlight, I suppose you'll want whoever to go after them next? Why do you err on the side of punishing those who like ans use mech mods safely, because there are * shocked face * people who don't act/aren't smart in the world.

Are we 5? Did someone speak out of turn in class? Do we all have to stay over 5 minutes now? Come on.

No production domestic maker designs flashlights for an unprotected 18650 cell, few use 18650 at all. There's a reason for that.

I would like to see mech mods, particularly ones with no safety features, taken off the market. I would prefer if the industry realized this themselves rather than having it be legislated. There are industry standard practices with regard to lithium ion batteries, and almost none of them are being followed in these types of PVs.