Commercial modders and co-ops: the problems

[Darkreign]

My personal opinion is that it really all boils down to awareness, both of the risks and responsibilities. I personally would not involve myself in a co-op with an individual that did not have high acclaim among the ECF members. And I have been fortunate enough to be involved in two recently that have gone very well.

That being said, I understand that some people might have not had my same experience and have the need to place blame for the loss of their investment. I consider the co-ops a monetary investment for a physical product and with all investments, there is some level of risk involved as well as some measure of time for it to come to fruition. I think the institution of lengthy rules placed to limit co-ops would harm the community much more than protect it, as intended. The key is information, not regulation.

Inform the co-op organizers that they might be required to provide actual cost information (this should be something the organizer is willing to provide if they are legitimate anyway.)

Inform the buyers that the co-ops are not, in any way, like their local electronics store. They are more like a high risk investment. If you don't know or trust the organizer, then abstain from the investment. I think that most people understand this, however there are always those who need to be warned that the coffee is hot, so to speak...

Inform all involved that the ECF forum is only the medium in which ideas are developed. You wouldn't blame your electric company if your light bulb burned out.

Information is the key, at least in my opinion. Implementation of cumbersome rules would restrict the development process and the people who wish to take advantage of the system will eventually find a way to circumvent them anyway.

 

[Tai Pan]

What you call a Co-Op we call a project. A project has passive and active member. The passive pay their obolus and the active member buy material and build the items without any profit in there free time. The risk of a project is on both sides. A stated delivery time is always estimated because a lot things can happen which cause delays. We never had a failed project in our forum but we had some with delays. Everybody accepeted these delays.

We are not a shop which delivers from stock.

The reason for this is to bring mods to users who will never be able to build the items for a price they will as well never reach. In the Genisis/Kronos project more than 12 people are engaged and it runs well, in the German forum. There it works very well and here it is a desaster.

Here I asked permission from the admin and after getting that started the project in this forum as well. I will never do that again on ECF. Promised!
I can write a book of all the mails and PN I have got in this matter. But more than 99% of the member are nice and friendly and understand what is going on. I am not used to the others and will not get used to them.

It makes sense to inform when there is something new, not to inform that there is no new information.

The discussion is a bit funny.
No one will start a project with a very heavy work load in his free time and fulfil all the discussed points. He must be stupid. Why shall he do that? The projects will die and the active member will build mods for their own and publish nothing.

I agree that there is something to do if something is called a Co-Op and in real it is business. I saw some in this forum. There the admins have to do something. We would do that in our forum as well. But until now nobody tried a start a project which could be seen as business.

Uwe

 

[slimest]

Ha-ha-ha!!! You are all funny One wants to count money to be shure that something goes for him, another tries to prove, that he is just a Santa Claus
Enjoying the show

 

[Teach]

See attached PDF below.

Is it possible to set up a forum for just the Co-ops? Attached is a pdf which might give some ideas for a forum template. Most startup businesses fail due to improper planning and co-ops are no different in that aspect.

Proposed Co-ops: First, it's separate from everything else - that appears to be necessary with larger co-ops coming into existence. The Co-op forum itself is divided into two areas. A Member proposes/requests a co-op for a particular project. The proposal would have to show, in essence, a business plan (left side of chart). Prospective members would be able to view, discuss, and sign up as an intent to participate in a separate thread. When the proposal and membership support appear to be in order and the co-op is approved it moves to the right side on the diagram.

Approved/Active Co-ops: On approval, the template is opened and a membership list (from the signup) is published. The Team/Project leader has areas in which posting is required (e.g. weekly updates) and no other passive members may post there.

This type of organization would limit those willing to just jump in without consideration of co-op management needs. One thing I didn't itemize was the accounting side - process transparency is only as good as the info. so the accounting factor must be added.

Well, some ideas for thought - certainly not complete, but a start. Roly, can a template be constructed in a separate forum area and limit posting?

View attachment Co-op chart.pdf

 

[Teach]

Thanks for stopping in Uwe - most of us are still going straight. Have a Merry Christmas!!!

What you call a Co-Op we call a project. A project has passive and active member. The passive pay their obolus and the active member buy material and build the items without any profit in there free time. The risk of a project is on both sides. A stated delivery time is always estimated because a lot things can happen which cause delays. We never had a failed project in our forum but we had some with delays. Everybody accepeted these delays.


Uwe

 

[dragon_ch]

What I don't understand is why members in this forum complained or held ECF responsible if anything went wrong with a coop?
I assumed all members in this forum are adults. Nobody held a gun to their heads to participate or buy anything. They should use their own judgements!!!

 

[Shead]

What I don't understand is why members in this forum complained or held ECF responsible if anything went wrong with a coop?
I assumed all members in this forum are adults. Nobody held a gun to their heads to participate or buy anything. They should use their own judgements!!!

I think its because Co-Ops have to be run through the proper channels to get approval and when it goes bad people think its the admins fault for approving the co-op

 

[perlionsmitnick]

For those people who seem to be too dense to know "that the coffee is hot" Why not as Sax was saying make it a requirement to publish at the beginning or head of the Co-op thread an indemnification clause by ECF admin. Anyone participating in the co-op shall acknowledge acceptance of the clause.

 

[SAX]

Well, I just know that it does work in the Business world. We use it "A LOT"

For those people who seem to be too dense to know "that the coffee is hot" Why not as Sax was saying make it a requirement to publish at the beginning or head of the Co-op thread an indemnification clause by ECF admin. Anyone participating in the co-op shall acknowledge acceptance of the clause.

 

[lorderos33]

Seems to me that the crux of the problem is that we are running into the same types of issues that most large societies eventually face. Things go very well for a time and as the population grows, there arise small but very vocal minorities that get the attention of the people in charge. This minority ends up getting changes made that negatively affect the silent majority and even themselves a times, as a result of their loud voice, however small the group they represent actually is as compared to the whole of the population.

Granted here at ECF, population is replaced by membership and groups (majority and minority) are much smaller, concept seems to fit, at least from 40,000 feet

Please understand that this is just my 2 cents and no offense or reference is meant to anyone or any group here. This is merely an objective observation.

 

[rolygate]

All good points here.

We certainly don't want to wreck the situation just because a few people don't understand the problems: mainly, that they may have to wait a few months. In the Classifieds, the situation has become a lot worse, because people just get five posts so they can sell something, then rip off a buyer. That situation required more drastic action. Here, it is mainly a problem with information and organisation.

So it looks as if we will split the co-op forum into discussion, live co-ops, and the co-op organiser's update thread as a separate one. Plus warnings, including that if you go into a co-op, you agree that there is a risk, that there could easily be a substantial wait, that the item/s may or may not be exactly as you hoped, and that ECF bears no responsibility and cannot intervene.

So in essence there will not be anything substantial in the way of changes - just better arrangements and cautions.

 

[Vapeterry]

Thank you Rolygate, i am glad the CO-OP issue is working out well. Don't know how the classy's are going tho, would like to . Also have read alot of your very informative posts in other areas & i am very pleased that you are here for us. Thank you very much for all that you do for us.

 

[perlionsmitnick]

Seems to me that the crux of the problem is that we are running into the same types of issues that most large societies eventually face. Things go very well for a time and as the population grows, there arise small but very vocal minorities that get the attention of the people in charge. This minority ends up getting changes made that negatively affect the silent majority and even themselves a times, as a result of their loud voice, however small the group they represent actually is as compared to the whole of the population.

Granted here at ECF, population is replaced by membership and groups (majority and minority) are much smaller, concept seems to fit, at least from 40,000 feet

Please understand that this is just my 2 cents and no offense or reference is meant to anyone or any group here. This is merely an objective observation.

Your observation, not entirely relating to ECF, is spot on.

 

[Moonlit knight]

I am not sure about that, dissenting voices should have a place. Todays minority could be tomorrows majority, generally speaking. That is how groups advance to a better state of being.

 

[lorderos33]

I am not sure about that, dissenting voices should have a place. Todays minority could be tomorrows majority, generally speaking. That is how groups advance to a better state of being.

I am not saying that dissenting voices should not have a place or a voice. When/if that voice becomes the majority then yes, by all means they should have the power to make the changes they seek.

This part of the argument truly does not apply to ECF, but needed to be answered when that general argument is brought up. There is never, ever a situation where the minority should outweigh the majority regardless of where that minority may or may not be in the future or what moral ground either side stands on.

Also, this not really being all that relevant to ECF and therefore off-topic, this is the las response I'll give on this. I apologize if this has hijacked the thread.

Again, just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Switched]

What I don't understand is why members in this forum complained or held ECF responsible if anything went wrong with a coop?
I assumed all members in this forum are adults. Nobody held a gun to their heads to participate or buy anything. They should use their own judgements!!!

Because as members we have certain rights. Although these issues have nothing to do with ECF, ECF has in the past resolved conflicts between members and shady vendors.

Speaking as a offline mfr, I had no choice but to register as such. I could have very much stayed in the background, under the TOS this was not possible. Being a supplier/mgr comes with restrictions on where one can participate on the forums. I have no dog in this fight and respect Dan and the rest. As some have stated this has gotten a little ridiculous wrt operating within the TOS.

Once upon a time the modders section was more of a developmental platform where folks posted their inventions etc... and even posted walk throughs on how to make them. Dan still does that to this day. OTOH other folks are not operating with the same amount of integrity and active shillings as not only taken place here but on the other fora as well.

IMO cleaning up the house was needed. Because it has gotten to a point that the modder's section is no longer a community oriented section, but a section where folks take the collaborative ideas of others and market them for profit. Many modders no longer post their skills or invetions here, for that exact reason.

 

[dspin]

I don't know, Roly. I don't think there is a GOOD solution.

But caveat emptor works for me.

If you don't want to risk it, do not participate in the co-op.

Since I am throwing around foreign phrases, why not laissez faire?

We are all grown ups here, after all.

++++++++++++10 on that. I agree completely.

 

[ScroungerLee]

I would suggest that if a cap is placed on the number of items that a person is allowed to order that it be sufficient for those who want to give 1 or 2 as gifts. Perhaps a limit of three?

I like the direction this thread is going, except to say that not all adults are adult.

Lee

 

[Kami]

I like what you all are saying here...... I get that there must be a degree of social control ........
but ......... who's gonna' police it?