Another B&M rant

[Rizzyking]

The fault with the "informed customer" argument is that many new vapours go to b&M's to get good advice and trust rightly or wrongly that the shop will steer them right. There are only two within fifty miles of me the first one is like a creche loads of barely 18 trying to fill the room with vapour and employees who as soon as they can't sell you the fasttech clone for double the cost of an authentic will walk off and ignore you. The other one is a fantastic place my only complaint is I only go there when I'm at the local hospital as its a fair distance from my town but has knowledgeable staff who have as much time as you need and are focused on setting you up with what's best for you their prices are also very reasonable. vaping is catching on in the UK and whilst we have many great online and b&M's we sadly have far too many looking to make a quick buck.

I try and help people as much as I can but last few months I've been sorting out the nearest b&m's mess and helping find what's right for my friends. At a time when governments are trying to decide what to do with vaping this is the last thing we need to have.

 

[faeriekitsune]

So a few more details since I seem to have started something. The original post was I just wanted to vent about idjits upselling expensive mods to noobs who don't know better. I didn't mean to set off the apocalypse bomb.

+ I'm not saying I know more than the shop peeps. I may or I might not - never took a standardized test on it. My friend asked for help cuz I've been vaping with eGos or better/ higher for a year.. He's only had the mod a week or two, knew there was a problem, didn't know what caused it or how to fix it.

+ He should have asked for advice pre-purchase, but he's one of those guys that thinks he is "da shizz" and knows/can do everything. He also tends to believe the "expert" behind the counter.

+ Factual correction- the red batteries I saw turned out to be LGs, not Panasonic. I only use Sony, so I'm not familiar with all the colors enough to be able to ID them on less than three seconds visual. Sony, LG, Panasonic - eh, it's all Asian tv's to me.

+ The shop in question is a vape only shop that opened 3-4 months ago. Normally I don't have an issue with them other than their prices are a tad high. The original staff is good, but they've recently done some new hiring.

+ The big reason I'm upset is that setup is not exactly first ecig for dummies. He's never used an e-cig, short of stealing mine or bf's for a puff. For him to be sold something he doesn't even know how to maintain, let alone repair, without basic instruction... It just screams "GIMME MONEY! Who cares about helping people?" And this seems to be common among head shops turned "vape", stop & robs, etc. but I hadn't seen that attitude with an actual vape shop, and it bothers me.

 

[Rocketpunk]

And thou shalt see what rebuildables hath wrought.

(Tongue in cheek)

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

 

[ProjektMayhem]

Yeah I personally don't have any around where I live that will do that but I hear about them all the time on here. I see posts everyday where someone says "the guys at the shop set me up with this mod and atty" and it's always some crazy 0.01 ohm build or something with a 2.5 amp battery.

I mean I know it's not the shops responsibility to make sure these people are educated on battery safety and all that but it is morally the right thing to do. I mean if I worked in one of those shops and built someone a crazy build and then I read in the news that they blew their fingers off I would feel super bad. But they don't think of that all they can think of is all the $$$ their raking in. I hate that there's people in this community that simply don't care about the safety of others.

 

[jonny45378]

So a few more details since I seem to have started something. The original post was I just wanted to vent about idjits upselling expensive mods to noobs who don't know better. I didn't mean to set off the apocalypse bomb.

+ I'm not saying I know more than the shop peeps. I may or I might not - never took a standardized test on it. My friend asked for help cuz I've been vaping with eGos or better/ higher for a year.. He's only had the mod a week or two, knew there was a problem, didn't know what caused it or how to fix it.

+ He should have asked for advice pre-purchase, but he's one of those guys that thinks he is "da shizz" and knows/can do everything. He also tends to believe the "expert" behind the counter.

+ Factual correction- the red batteries I saw turned out to be LGs, not Panasonic. I only use Sony, so I'm not familiar with all the colors enough to be able to ID them on less than three seconds visual. Sony, LG, Panasonic - eh, it's all Asian tv's to me.

+ The shop in question is a vape only shop that opened 3-4 months ago. Normally I don't have an issue with them other than their prices are a tad high. The original staff is good, but they've recently done some new hiring.

+ The big reason I'm upset is that setup is not exactly first ecig for dummies. He's never used an e-cig, short of stealing mine or bf's for a puff. For him to be sold something he doesn't even know how to maintain, let alone repair, without basic instruction... It just screams "GIMME MONEY! Who cares about helping people?" And this seems to be common among head shops turned "vape", stop & robs, etc. but I hadn't seen that attitude with an actual vape shop, and it bothers me.

Just a question for you. Is your buddy still using the rda? If so I'd suggest you telling him to maybe go and buy a nautilus or something similar since it's easier to maintain and have him vape at lower wattages. Since its his first mod I think he should stay away from rdas for quite a while imo.

 

[jpargana]

Some of us didn't get into rebuildables blow bigger clouds. I got into rebuildables to be confident that I could continue to vape (and thus continue to stay smoke-free) no matter what the goobermint does.

This !!

I moved to mods, not really because I was unhappy about my e-Go, but because the new European TPD made me think that maybe I *should* become more independent from ready factory-made e-cigs. If the goobermint decided to ban e-Go bateries, I could still buy rechargeable ones. If the goobermint decided to ban e-Go atomizers to match those batteries, I could always recoil my Kayfuns. Surelly the goobermint cannot ban kanthal and cotton...

THAT was made me switch. As far as "quitting smoking", a simple Janty Dura-C with simple, cig-alike technology was all that was needed back in the beginning of 2009.

In fact, I already have ordered a new e-Go with a BCC. Over time, I got tired of this wicking stuff, carrying extra batteries and so forth... maybe I will use both the e-Go and the Roller, or maybe I will just keep the Roller for later, when the hammer strikes, and enjoy simpler setups while the goobermint still allows them. I get better vapour from the Roller, of course. But, from my opinion ONLY, it does not compensate for the added trouble. And this new BCC seems better than the setup I had one year ago, anyway. Things are getting better, even in the 2nd gen business.

 

[Rossum]

Alas, I can't shop at my local B&Ms anymore; both of them carry ejuices only in 50/50 or even more VG, which I simply cannot vape (or Halo, whose PG/VG is unknown, but I simply do not like!)

My local B&M up in PA (Liberty Vapor in Lansdale) only "stocks" their juice at 50/50 and the usual 6/12/18/24 nic levels. But if you want something different, they will happily make it for you. My preference is 65% VG with 15 mg nic, and I don't even have to tell them that anymore. I'm sure if someone wanted mostly PG at say 9mg nic, they would make that too.

I still don't understand the hate for B&M's on this forum.

Me either. I've only been to half a dozen or so. Despite each one having a different atmosphere, I've never had what I'd call a bad experience in any of them.

I'm aware of your reactions to VG. I understand you need PG heavy juice. But out of statistical observation, I've never, ever heard anyone tell me they can't handle vegetable glycerin.

That doesn't mean she doesn't have an unusual sensitivity. Personally, I can't handle coils made of nichrome, R41, or Ni200 wire; by the second or third day vaping such a coil, I end up with an irritated mouth and throat every time.

 

[AndriaD]

I agree for the most part, Andria. And yes, mark-ups can be high. But if you factor in shipping and handling, the wait, and not being able to immediately fix a problem, or speak to a human face to face, things can get frustrating even more. Legit B&M's offer knowledgeable staff, hands on shopping, and return/refund/exchange policies. They'll work with people if it's a legitimate problem. Oftentimes you'll have to do the e-mail dance back and forth to get something purchased on-line straightened out. A legit B&M will not send you out of their doors if their products are not working. I still don't understand the hate for B&M's on this forum. Where are you people going?? I can't be the only one with decent, or more-than-above-average B&M's in the tri-state area.

No one, not anybody, can argue that in-store prices are cheaper than on-line prices. No one will ever argue that. It's stone cold fact. But posters should be careful when they demonize B&M's. Some are fly by nights, some are sincere.

EDIT: I'm aware of your reactions to VG. I understand you need PG heavy juice. But out of statistical observation, I've never, ever heard anyone tell me they can't handle vegetable glycerin. It has always been PG. Not everyone can cater to everything, and while I sympathize, major juice vendors cannot be at fault for this.

I remember first hearing "gluten free" three years ago. I worked in the food industry for fifteen years and no one ever said the words "gluten free" until then. After that, everyone was celiac.

I get all that, and if I ever did have a hardware problem, I'm sure I'd wish I'd bought whatever-it-is at a store rather than online -- but if I didn't buy online, I wouldn't be able to buy at all. The only hardware I've bought retail was my very first T3S, when I discovered how awful the iClear16's were that came with my first vv3, and a few driptips -- those are the only retail items remotely within my budget. And it's too bad, really, because both the B&Ms near me are very good stores, with competent people running/operating them. But if I'd had to wait to be able to afford retail prices... I'd still be smoking -- that change-over from analog to electronic was a bit costly, at the outset, but being able to get an eRoll kit for $40 made it possible -- dunno what retail stores would charge for it, but I'd be willing to bet it's at least 50% higher. Heck I've seen it 50% higher ONLINE!

I've bought some ejuice retail, because I liked being able to taste first -- but then I discovered that my issue with VG wasn't just a matter of taste, but necessity. I've also come to learn the flip side, how irritating PG can be, from when I was vaping 90% PG and coming down with a cold -- my throat was so red it looked sunburned! And it HURT, for days! The VG issue is more subtle, the wheeze and shortness of breath is less immediately compelling than the 'OW THAT BURNS!' from PG, but is actually much scarier, when it progresses to the point where you literally can't draw a good breath -- when you can't even breathe in enough to get a good hit from your rescue inhaler, that's pure terror. PG irritation *is* irritating -- but being unable to breathe? That's life threatening.

Andria

 

[GregoTX]

It's kind of disturbing to me how little research people do on things these days. I'm one of those that researches the hell out of everything before pulling the trigger. I know there's a limit to what you can find out yourself on the interwebs, and that's when friends/B&M face-to-faces should fill in the blanks...not sell a Corvette to someone looking for a Fiesta.

 

[AndriaD]

My local B&M up in PA (Liberty Vapor in Lansdale) only "stocks" their juice at 50/50 and the usual 6/12/18/24 nic levels. But if you want something different, they will happily make it for you. My preference is 65% VG with 15 mg nic, and I don't even have to tell them that anymore. I'm sure if someone wanted mostly PG at say 9mg nic, they would make that too.

Unfortunately neither of my locals actually makes their own, they just sell "major lines;" I've heard that some of the Halo juices are higher in PG, but I've so far not liked a single one I've tasted. I *love* a couple of the Pipe Sauce flavors, but they're 95% VG!

That doesn't mean she doesn't have an unusual sensitivity. Personally, I can't handle coils made of nichrome, R41, or Ni200 wire; by the second or third day vaping such a coil, I end up with an irritated mouth and throat every time.

I'm not sure it's really that; the 15% or 20% of VG that I do vape, causes me no issues; if I dilute a VG-heavy juice with water, it decreases the problem, so I think it's mainly the high viscosity that causes my lungs so much trouble, but I didn't find water-diluted juices satisfactory; the taste is lighter, and in a regular atty (like a kayfun for example) the water causes a lot of mouth-popping. If I had some concentrated flavoring to mimic the flavor I'm diluting, and I used it in a carto, water-dilution would probably work. But going to that much trouble, to punch up the flavor, it just seems the better part of wisdom to learn how to make my own, so I can have both the PG/VG and nic/WTA level I need -- saves a buttload of money, too!

Andria

 

[James Wilson]

For me when I started I went with the Vuse. But I kept up analogs at the same time. I late got some "free" samples from green smoke. Those cost me shipping which wasn't a lot but those turned out to be a big headache. Had problems with the battery. Before I started the Vuse I did research it a bit though. Then after I started to research more which is how I found this site. It was here where my true learning adventure began. I got my first good setup from a fellow vapor on here along with some juices. I do miss the snowman's kiss from pinkspot I got from her. When I can afford to I really need to order more lol. I also got some other juices from another member on here that I met. I consider them both friends now and owe my success to quitting analogs to them. Without their help I'd probably be back on analogs. Unfortunately in my town we really don't got any B&M Vape shops. We got a small gas station that sells juices from hoosier vape and some crappy cheap hardware which the owner actually described as disposable. I wouldn't call the ego as disposable but I could understand if he had said that about the tank. lol. The guy himself was a smoker. I saw the pack in his pocket. After just a few minutes of talking to the guy I could tell he didn't know a whole lot. I knew more then he did. I still haven't learned to recoil or anything like that. I have been happy with my simple setup. I am not one that needs anything fancy. I just need to vape to get my nicotine. There is a shop in Indianapolis I would like to visit but I haven't been able to get out to it. I think our tobacco shop in town may sell some stuff now but I haven't bothered to stop in there. For one thing I am broke, for another while their staff in there is nice, I am not sure they would have much more then this one guy. Though if they got a larger selection of juice for a decent price it might give me a reason to shop there. It sucks not having a place to go though where people actually know the products they are selling. I might actually be willing to learn to rebuild a coil if I had someone to sit down and show me. I am not talking some vid either. I am the type I prefer to have the person right there. So I just keep it simple. If I gotta buy new packs of pre-made coils so be it. Though I have found my kanger duel coils for my aereotank mini to usually last me about a month or so. So for me it works out. The 5 pack of coils my friend sent me along with my set up still hasn't run out yet. I still got 2 left that I haven't used. The only one to burn out quick was the first one. I tried dry burning it and rinsing it off with water and it somehow caused it to burn out. Considering it is almost impossible to get into them do a proper cleaning, I just use a paper towl now to absorb the juice off it. I even stick a tiny sliver in the ends to absorb some of the juice that is inside the coil. It seems to work alright. I do clean out my set up though 2-3 times a week usually. So I am sure that helps too. I don't really get why these kids want all this fancy stuff. Especially since many of them likely will not want to learn properly in the first place. I admit I do like clouds. But for me it is more about the vapor and my nic. I want to get that as simple as I can. If we ever get a good B&M in town or if I move near one, I might start to advance to other letters to learn other things. But as long as I am on my own, I just want to keep it simple. No need to get stressed over trying to learn it and then screwing up and not having anyone to help me fix the problem.

 

[VBdev]

I tend to stop through the new shops that pop up, and they are popping up everywhere.

Not too long ago, just after I received my XPV40, I was in a new one scoping out what gear they carry. Get to talking with the youngin behind the counter and asked him if he'd tried the new temperature control boards. His response was "it only goes up to 40 watts so that's useless". It's really a shame that these are the folks many potential vapors get their first real information session from, that from some perspective they are the interface to the vaping world for the general public.

These places already have the B&M markup, not easy to find the kind of help I'd like to meet behind the counter. Still the shop owners could be doing more as far as policies and training and information...but they are quasi banking on selling to the uninformed so??????

 

[philoshop]

The chainsaw analogy is a good one up to a point. The biggest difference is that chainsaws are loud and heavy and pretty scary to most people because they're obviously dangerous, whereas vape gear is not.

 

[DoctorD]

I sure to goodness hope the pendulum swings back to normal vaping. This "extreme" version of vaping has lost all sight of what vaping was originally about (quitting smoking). It can be downright dangerous, and what we're seeing are the blind leading the blind. I work in a B&M and do you know how many kids (18, yes, but they're still kids) I just subconsciously shake my head at? They're all young men (I've only met two females -- both women -- who were into rebuildables, and they most definitely were not cloudchasers), the vast majority have never smoked (well, not cigarettes, anyway) and they care little for safety. You can do your best to emphasize safety first, but this cloudchasing crowd of boys will have nothing of it. The biggest umbrage I take to cloudchasers is how they look down their noses at anything that isn't a mech mod with an RDA on top. Please, kids, please realize -- rebuilding is NOT, by any means, the be all, end all, endgame for vapers. You're the fringe. Why, all of a sudden, is the ONLY way to "truly experience vaping" is via rebuilding?

And did you ever even smoke before? Are you trying to quit smoking? Or is it the new cool thing to do, and you want to be as cool as your buddies and do little vape tricks (that no one even really cares about except you and your friends.)

Part of me agrees with /some/ things here, but I also disagree with a large portion of this.
I started smoking at 15 and was a Pack-a-Day smoker by 16/17. Most of my smoker or ex-smoker friends have similar stories. My first e-cig was a Blu, which I REALLY wanted to work for me but alas, it just didn't cut it. I still craved the "hit" of a cigarette and returned to smoking. I was 18. Around a year later I discovered clearomizers, eGo style batteries and the lot. This was a BIG step for me, but still didn't fit the bill for what I needed. I was, and still am, a deep lung inhaler. I like the feeling of having full lungs, breathing in a dense cloud of smoke/vapor. Although I still smoked /some/ analogs with clearomizers, it was a big help. But when I found RDAs and mechanical mods, that changed the game. I was able to recreate the feeling of taking a deep drag of tobacco smoke, and that's what did it for me. I haven't smoked in almost 6 months now (and I'm about to turn 21, weee!) I've had THREE friends of mine also try my RDA, and after teaching them the ins & outs of battery safety, rebuilding, etc, they are now full-time vapers, two of them for over 90 days now. And they're ages 20 & 21. So even though we DO like to have a good time creating some over-the-top builds that give us a lot of vapor, we do it as a hobby and use our main builds simply to satisfy us like cigarettes did, and it works.
Don't group all young people into one subgroup of cloudchasing idiots, as many of us do have genuine reasons for wanting a more satisfying vape. Who knows, "cloudchasing", in a way, could save my life in the end.

Oh, and one thing I wanted to add. Vaping for me has become not only a safe alternative to the cigarettes I used to smoke, but also a hobby as well. I very much enjoy rebuilding and it's a hobby that lets me sit down, clear my mind, and do something creative that takes concentration. I was an IV smack user for 3 years, and just having something sort've 'ritualistic' to do (re-coiling, re-wicking, cleaning my mod, dripping, etc) and concentrate on, I believe also works to help keep me sober.
Basically, vaping can be a way to get off the tobacco and also serve as a hobby, if you're into that sort've thing.

 

[Rocketpunk]

Part of me agrees with /some/ things here, but I also disagree with a large portion of this.
I started smoking at 15 and was a Pack-a-Day smoker by 16/17. Most of my smoker or ex-smoker friends have similar stories. My first e-cig was a Blu, which I REALLY wanted to work for me but alas, it just didn't cut it. I still craved the "hit" of a cigarette and returned to smoking. I was 18. Around a year later I discovered clearomizers, eGo style batteries and the lot. This was a BIG step for me, but still didn't fit the bill for what I needed. I was, and still am, a deep lung inhaler. I like the feeling of having full lungs, breathing in a dense cloud of smoke/vapor. Although I still smoked /some/ analogs with clearomizers, it was a big help. But when I found RDAs and mechanical mods, that changed the game. I was able to recreate the feeling of taking a deep drag of tobacco smoke, and that's what did it for me. I haven't smoked in almost 6 months now (and I'm about to turn 21, weee!) I've had THREE friends of mine also try my RDA, and after teaching them the ins & outs of battery safety, rebuilding, etc, they are now full-time vapers, two of them for over 90 days now. And they're ages 20 & 21. So even though we DO like to have a good time creating some over-the-top builds that give us a lot of vapor, we do it as a hobby and use our main builds simply to satisfy us like cigarettes did, and it works.
Don't group all young people into one subgroup of cloudchasing idiots, as many of us do have genuine reasons for wanting a more satisfying vape. Who knows, "cloudchasing", in a way, could save my life in the end.

Traditional cigarette smoke has never been, isn't, and never will be, as thick and dense as an RDA.

 

[DoctorD]

Rocketpunk, the point I'm trying to make is that the quality of vape from an RDA blew what I had been trying out of the water, and it was satisfying enough for me to quit analogs entirely, while gas station e-cigs were not.

 

[Rocketpunk]

I'm glad they worked for you, DoctorD.

 

[DoctorD]

Also, the B&M I got my first mod from was VERY adamant about safety. They made me explain to them how I'd use my Fluke to properly measure the resistance of a build to make sure I knew what I was doing. They thoroughly assessed my experience level with vaping and they taught me about what could cause a short, what type of batteries to use, when NOT to use a battery, what resistance levels were safe, etc. They were safety-first and even carded me at the end. It was a great experience, and even though they're a bit overpriced, I still go there to this day.
If all B&M's were like this, I think it would nearly eliminate the problem of "kids" who have never smoked trying to "extreme vape". B&Ms need to take more responsibility and seriously evaluate & educate their customers before selling to them. Unfortunately, like many things, it's going to take a catastrophe or two before these people start to wake up, and it's unfortunate.

 

[sub4me]

I think local places are great for buying supplies when you need it now but I don't expect them to teach me how to use everything, most of them are young kids working there and are just there to sell you stuff, its not a vaping school.

 

[DoctorD]

I think local places are great for buying supplies when you need it now but I don't expect them to teach me how to use everything, most of them are young kids working there and are just there to sell you stuff, its not a vaping school.

Completely depends upon the staff and the store. I've had great experiences with very passionate and knowledgeable people and I've had the "mall kiosk" experience, ie. selling the most expensive thing they can to whoever they can regardless of the customer's needs or experience.