American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[zapped]

It appears they have 10 charter members and 3 general members, with plans still at certification by 2/28/13:

MEMBERS | AEMSA


Take from that what you will. I'm still optimistic until I see otherwise.

Im NOT so optimistic and Ill be happy to tell you why. First off I question their involvement with vendors and people that have had a negative impact on vaping in the past year.

One is Jason Boyse from the J-Box scandal. The vape Team maintains that there isnt a conflict of interest in allowing members of the team to be vendors even after he bilked ecf members out of over 3 grand......???????

The other vendor is now persona non-grata here on the forums but was featured prominently in Tonawanda New York news when a co-owner was charged with several despicable acts relating to minors.

That same vendor decided to take food coloring out of their juices without any notice to their customers amidst a minor storm of protest.

The last seems relatively harmless until you find out that Linc Williams has an allergy to food coloring and is clearly pursuing a personal agenda as well as/over a professional one.

Having ties to Jason Boyse, Vape-team and the vendor-who-cannot-be-named should raise further questions about those personal/professional choices as well.

For an organization trying to establish themselves with a degree of respectability and professionalism in regards to this industry they certainly seem to have made some extremely poor choices and I would be loathe to buy from any vendor connected with them.

 

[meli.]

zapped, I do admire your candour. Be prepared for an avalanche to follow.

In the meantime I shall sit idly by and watch the Drama unfold, zoiD fancy a drink with all that popcorn?

Might need to get More Popcorn?

By now you must be parched?

 

[Caridwen]

?????

The other vendor is now persona non-grata here on the forums but was featured prominently in Tonawanda New York news when a co-owner was charged with several despicable acts relating to minors.

That same vendor decided to take food coloring out of their juices without any notice to their customers amidst a minor storm of protest.

Just want to clarify- that person was banned from here long before that happened and it was in no way related to the events mentioned.

 

[jdrewry]

Im NOT so optimistic and Ill be happy to tell you why. First off I question their involvement with vendors and people that have had a negative impact on vaping in the past year.

One is Jason Boyse from the J-Box scandal. The Vape Team maintains that there isnt a conflict of interest in allowing members of the team to be vendors even after he bilked ecf members out of over 3 grand......???????

The other vendor is now persona non-grata here on the forums but was featured prominently in Tonawanda New York news when a co-owner was charged with several despicable acts relating to minors.

That same vendor decided to take food coloring out of their juices without any notice to their customers amidst a minor storm of protest.

The last seems relatively harmless until you find out that Linc Williams has an allergy to food coloring and is clearly pursuing a personal agenda as well as/over a professional one.

Having ties to Jason Boyse, Vape-team and the vendor-who-cannot-be-named should raise further questions about those personal/professional choices as well.

For an organization trying to establish themselves with a degree of respectability and professionalism in regards to this industry they certainly seem to have made some extremely poor choices and I would be loathe to buy from any vendor connected with them.

I said earlier in this thread, that I wanted to see what the list was a year after this was first posted.
With all respect to those vendors are are listed, I'm not too impressed so far.
If this organization really wants to show that it means business, they need to make a more concerted effort to bring in those vendors most recognized by the posters here.
I don't know how they would do that; again, I'll stick with my favorite vendors.

 

[zapped]

zapped, I do admire your candour. Be prepared for an avalanche to follow.

In the meantime I shall sit idly by View attachment 181420 and watch the Drama unfold, zoiD fancy a drink View attachment 181421 with all that popcorn?

By now you must be parched? View attachment 181422

Heh No worries Meli. I was taught long ago to stand up for what I believe in and I felt like this needed to be out in the open so people could decide for themselves. Im not exactly a stranger to controversial subjects or taking up for myself either

 

[SissySpike]

Unfortunately these kind of people seek out those positions. Why do you think Washington is so full of morally bankrupt people? If you have a personal agenda to push you seek out a place to push it. Its the same reason insurance company's are able to influence so much of our day to day lives.
I think its a great idea but they need to question each and every regulation thoroughly to insure its something that's beneficial to the industry or its something that is just someones idea of how things should be and has no bearing in the quality of juice.
We don't need pages and pages of regulation just a simple out line of how a reasonably sterile manufacturing environment should be used. accurate measurements, and correct indigence. Its really that simple anything else IMO is just over regulation and is molded after most current regulatory boards and we are seeing those don't work so well.

 

[zoiDman]

Im NOT so optimistic and Ill be happy to tell you why. First off I question their involvement with vendors and people that have had a negative impact on vaping in the past year.

...

For an organization trying to establish themselves with a degree of respectability and professionalism in regards to this industry they certainly seem to have made some extremely poor choices and I would be loathe to buy from any vendor connected with them.

I think Sometimes it is good to step back and Remember what AEMSA is. And what they are Not.

What they are is a Trade Organization which Represents their Members. Their Primary Function is the Well Being, Stability and Profitability of their Members. What AEMSA is Not is a Consumer Organization which represents Vapers.

This does not mean that what AEMSA seeks for their Members has to be Contrary to what a Majority, or a Minority, of Vapers want.

But if any Conflict between AEMSA's Members and a sector of Vaping Community does arise, AEMSA's Responsibility lies with its Members First.

As well it should. That is what Members are Paying for and that is why Companies become Members of AEMSA.

 

[zoiDman]

...

By now you must be parched? View attachment 181422

Now that I think about it… I am a little Thirsty.

LOL

 

[TheBoogieman]

>> What they are is a Trade Organization which Represents their Members. Their Primary Function is the Well Being, Stability and Profitability of their Members. What AEMSA is Not is a Consumer Organization which represents Vapers.<<

I would have thought the same thing. Yet what they decided to do was go public on every forum and vape show. If their target audience is manufacturers, why all the fanfare for vapers?
(The Consumers)

It all came off to me like a big juice vendor commercial. New juice vendors popping up everyday, how do you stand out from the crowd? Invent a seal of approval?

Just taken from their website:

At this point in time no member has reached certification – All members have committed to reaching full compliance and are working diligently to reach it by February 28th 2013

Do they need to update the website?
Are any members certified?
Who checking to make sure the manufacturers are in compliance and what are their qualifications?

TheBoogieman

 

[xanderxman]

You shouldn't use the Seal of Approval thing in this thread. It got me slammed more than once in this thread.

I am interested to see if any of the vendors listed have come into compliance yet, as the supposed deadline has passed. I doubt that any vendor has done so, or else there would be confetti and party favors galore given out on their site. The apparent silence seems a bit disheartening.

I may be wrong, and I have been told that a few times in this thread. I just don't see this working out as wonderfully as the members expect.

And, apparently, we as vapers can just ignore the entire AEMSA thing as they are only out to help their members and not the vaping community. That is my biggest disconnect with this entire fiasco. If AEMSA is truly a trade organization only willing to look out for their member vendors then why post it on ECF, where most of the traffic is consumers, not vendors?

 

[TheBoogieman]

I do not see their self policing standards making any traction with the FDA.

This from a juice wholesalers site that at least by me is doing it right. If your gonna play on the FDA's field, your gonna have to play by some of their rules.

>> *** is a FDA registered facility as a tobacco manufacturer and food manufacturer

*** carries a full product liability insurance for fluids produced that are placed in (bottles, cartridges, cartomizers and disposable electronic cigarettes) that is extended to our clients company and through to their customers, which lowers our client's liability exposer.

*** provides "Lot Numbers" with all of our products that are traceable back to our suppliers and their provided Certificate of Analysis.

I removed their company name.

TheBoogieman

 

[2coils]

Last I checked AEMSA was organized to show some self regulation and establish credibility in this UN REGULATED industry. Vendors have some responsibility here too. Anyone willing to comply with some reasonable standards could hop on board. Part of the problem is vendors dont want to pay for the fees associated with membership. Not to mention the costs of running a business. These same vendors BETTER hope they are running a ledigt and professional business. As they try to self regulate and keep all of their profits (as they have the right to do) the hammer is about to come down on ALL of us! If their labs are not up to snuff they are going to be in for a big surprise.

 

[TheBoogieman]

I don't think being a member, paying for a membership or a seal are going to carry as much weight as this........

>>An FDA registered tobacco and food manufacturer<<

Thinking that might be one of the minimum requirements for the FDA to break out a smile. There are juice manufacturers out there following standards already in place. They are, and have been doing the right thing to stay in business for the long haul. (JC etc.)
They will be top shelf at the bar.

And unless the other juice manufacturers step up their game to those standards. They will be the House Vodka.

TheBoogieman

 

[2coils]

I don't think being a member, paying for a membership or a seal are going to carry as much weight as this........

>>An FDA registered tobacco and food manufacturer<<

Thinking that might be one of the minimum requirements for the FDA to break out a smile. There are juice manufacturers out there following standards already in place. They are, and have been doing the right thing to stay in business for the long haul. (JC etc.)
They will be top shelf at the bar.

And unless the other juice manufacturers step up their game to those standards. They will be the House Vodka.

TheBoogieman

Agree, I just think AEMSA gets alot of unjust negativity. IMHO e-liquid vendors could have done more to help the credibility of the industry. Though some vendors have standards in place, many do not. I dont believe setting up labs in ones home is going to fly with the FDA. Its bad enough there are plenty of unknowns in regard to e-cigs. I have purchased 18 mg e-liquid from a vendor who doesnt even mention the word Nicotine on the bottle. This is the stuff that gives those opposed to e-cigs more ammunition to call for regulations and perhaps over regulate. I wish MORE companies would boast about their well sanitized labs and supurb business practices and invite people to see them. I think most of us would be suprised to find out some of our favorite vendors aren't doing the right thing. We dont always think about these issues when vaping some of their superb e-liquid.

 

[TheBoogieman]

No unjust negativity from me, just being realistic. A juice manufacturing association is a noble idea. It was a noble idea 2 or 3 yrs ago. I think the standards are to little, maybe its not to late. That's yet to be seen.

Real world....
No members certified yet. Self policing standards that are to new, maybe yet to have been implemented and have no history to point too. If given time maybe some of their standards will be shown to the FDA as an example of how the industry should be regulated. Right now, no track record to go by.

I was buying juice from JC in 2009.

FDA Registration Johnson Creek Smoke Juice

fully registered with the U.S. Food & Drug Administration pursuant to Section 305 of the United States Public Health and Bioterrorism Act of 2002, P.L.

FDA Registered. The law now requires that all companies who produce products for human consumption, must register their facility and operations with the FDA. Further, all information pertaining to a company's address and nature of business must be current with FDA at all times.

We have our own lab with a corresponding Quality Control department. We are the industry leader in our use of current Good Manufacturing Processes (cGMPs) and though we are regulated by the Tobacco industry standards, we have pushed past those standards and we use the food grade standards as our guide.

The other juice wholesale I mentioned:
An FDA registered tobacco and food manufacturer

When or if the FDA is looking for input from a juice manufacturer, think they will be talking to aemsa or JC?

TheBoogieman

 

[meli.]

Do they need to update the website?

AEMSA recently updated their Member list, AEMSA now have Four new members apart from the Founding members.
Is it safe to say AEMSA is a Reactive Association? An Association which tends to wait for a Push from regular Consumers on this thread before making announcements on their Website or is it always just coincidence?
AEMSA updated their blog yesterday - 5th Mar.
Whilst CASAA, on the other hand, are a Proactive Organisation. Always on the forefront of events, recently launching their Research Fund they're constantly seeking new avenues to Strike Back at the FDA should its proposals be oppressive. Is AEMSA doing something similar? We'll probably never know.

As a consumer take comfort that AEMSA are diligently conducting their tests and will at some point Certify One or All of their members. Does this not fill you with great confidence and enthusiasm?

You shouldn't use the Seal of Approval thing in this thread. It got me slammed more than once in this thread.
.../...
If AEMSA is truly a trade organization only willing to look out for their member vendors then why post it on ECF, where most of the traffic is consumers, not vendors?

lol. The Seal of Approval(SoA) is a Great Concept but only works to Favour consumers if there are Consequences for members should they Fail compliance. Little point in purchasing from or supporting an AEMSA member if the SoA is just a sticker and later should the member fail a 'random test' - no action is taken. Will the consumers of failed liquids be notified? Will the products be withdrawn/ recalled? Who will take responsibility? How Or will the AEMSA member be made accountable?

Will AEMSA members be permitted to continue using Last year's SoA even if they choose to Not continue a further accreditation procedure the following year? If no, how will AEMSA prevent members from doing so? If yes, will this not give a False sense of Security to the Consumer?

Are answers to these questions of No relevance to the Consumer? As AEMSA's postponed its deadline for accreditation, most noticeably, they've resisted setting a new date perhaps to save risk of future embarrassment and with FDA reg's looming - is there any point in asking?

Still, it's worth remembering:

AEMSA are under No obligation to respond to the consumer.
AEMSA are answerable to their members Only.
AEMSA need only Satisfy their members concerns.

Consumers have No right or standing within AEMSA's framework policy to ask questions or have concerns addressed that AEMSA find sensitive, pertinent or just don't fancy responding to.
Consumers asking sensitive, pertinent or just don't fancy responding to questions will be labelled as 'Self Entitled'. ;]
Other than The Standards, Consumers are not privileged to any information that may Aid their decision in choosing to Support Members of this Scheme.

So yes, as ECF is a mostly Consumer driven platform and AEMSA need not answer consumer questions, I too wonder why AEMSA requested ECF to highlight their launch and largely ignore this Community's questions.

 

[Quick1]

I don't think being a member, paying for a membership or a seal are going to carry as much weight as this........

>>An FDA registered tobacco and food manufacturer<<

Thinking that might be one of the minimum requirements for the FDA to break out a smile. There are juice manufacturers out there following standards already in place. They are, and have been doing the right thing to stay in business for the long haul. (JC etc.)

Ummm... what does this mean? I wasn't aware that the FDA had set any standards for e-juice? Or "approved" any e-juice manufacturers or products. So what "standards already in place" are these (unamed) manufacturers claiming to be following?

I don't have any idea how the FDA works. What does "FDA registered" mean? I thought the FDA approves products. I didn't know they approved manufacturers. And does "registered" imply any sort of approval?

 

[zapped]

Looking over that member list, it seems that Aemsa has larger problems than just certification to worry about.

Consider the list of charter members and members.Why isn't JC part of this considering their obvious interest and inroads into clean labs, standardized procedures and laboratory settings? They would be the very first vendor Id approach.Maybe they know something we dont?

Not one of the vendors on their roster are what most would consider top shelf or premium vendors. I dont see any Halo's, Alien Visions, HHV's, Alive in Vapeland's, Johnson Creek's, Backwoods Brew's or any of a host of much more popular and established vendors that would lend their organization credence.

I've been around the vaping community for the better part of 4 years and something just doesn't seem right about this.

If you were aiming for credibility both amongst vendors and the vaping public wouldnt it make sense to go after the highest profile and most instantly recognizable vendors and get them on board first instead of taking on what could be seen as vendors desperate for exposure and/or sales?

Food for thought.

 

[TheBoogieman]

FDA Registration Johnson Creek Smoke Juice


Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC is fully registered with the U.S. Food & Drug Administration pursuant to Section 305 of the United States Public Health and Bioterrorism Act of 2002, P.L.

What does this mean? It does not mean we are "FDA Approved." Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC facilities and operations are FDA Registered. The law now requires that all companies who produce products for human consumption, must register their facility and operations with the FDA. Further, all information pertaining to a company's address and nature of business must be current with FDA at all times.

Being FDA Registered assures our accounts, customers and the public that Johnson Creek Enterprises, LLC is a fully disclosed company with the federal government. Being FDA Registered does not imply that Johnson Creek Enterprises is a pharmaceutical company or that our products have been approved or certified by FDA. Being FDA Registered does mean that we place public safety and well being as our top priority.

We have our own lab with a corresponding Quality Control department. We are the industry leader in our use of current Good Manufacturing Processes (cGMPs) and though we are regulated by the Tobacco industry standards, we have pushed past those standards and we use the food grade standards as our guide.

Registration and Listing

TheBoogieman

 

[Quick1]

So registering with the FDA means you have sent a notice of your company address and stated that you produce products for human consumption but "does not imply ... that our products have been approved or certified by FDA"

I don't see where that is going to influence how the FDA sees you one way or the other.