Understanding Your Symptoms While Adjusting To Vaping
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Good post. I agree with all. Glad to see it went to the ECF Library so it doesn't get buried. Now I think I need to go down on my nic level. That's my goal anyhow, symptoms or not. By the info i've gleaned off this site and as a light smoker, i started too high.
Note: I originally tried to PM Rolygate about this issue but he doesn't accept PMs. So I'm posting here.
I just noticed that my article "Understanding Your Symptoms While Adjusting To vaping" in the ECF library has been modified a fair bit by one or more admins. I'm posting this message to ask that the article be restored to its original form.
I went to great lengths to ensure that this article was as accurate as I could make it, substantiated by studies, research, and/or literature with good credentials for correctness.
A number of the changes someone has made to the article undermine that accuracy.
Some examples of changes I object to in the article:
1. "99.9% of 'symptoms' experienced by new users..." Really, 99.9%? A number like that is just picked out of the air, has no right to be in this article.
2. "Many people have reported a wide variety of syptoms when using ecigarettes but these are the result of tobacco withdrawal." We do not know this. Taken literally this is false, we do know that some things (e.g. hiccups from swallowing fluid) are NOT the result of tobacco withdrawal. This blanket statement has no place in this article.
3. "For example common symptoms are the Quit Zits, an acne or similar outbreak of spots, and mouth ulcers." I am aware of the anecdotal reports regarding these symptoms. However I was not able to find any scientific study of them. On the whole it appears that more people have acne improved than worsened by quitting smoking. A couple of articles of interest:
Smoking and acne - does smoking cause pimples?
ScienceDirect - Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology : Underestimated clinical features of postadolescent acne
Given the anecdotal evidence, I do not doubt that quitting smoking may trigger acne in some people. But the linkage is not understood. It may simply be due to stress/hormonal changes, not directly linked. And it may well be triggered in some people by the vaping, they might not have had acne if they had just quit smoking. The point is, we do not know. I might have added something about this to my original article if someone had asked me to. But the changes which someone else has made are completely unnacceptable to me. They are not a known truth, they are just a guess.
4. "Here is a link to a more comprehensive list of tobacco withdrawal symptoms: ..." That is not a list I would link to with an air of authority. It contains some speculative material which is not identified as such.
Finally, I want to point out that it is plain wrong to alter someone else's writings with a mere mention at the end that "This post has been edited / reorganized to emphasize the fact that symptoms of tobacco withdrawal should not be attributed to ecigarette use." The reader now has no way of knowing what I, Mister, wrote and what I didn't. Most readers will probably without thinking attribute things to me which I did not say. If you want me to change the article, ask me. If you want to make changes to the article you can either add to the original with each addition clearly marked as an editor's note, but with nothing changed or removed, or you can write a new article reusing the material and crediting me for the original. Changing words which are still attributed to me is unnacceptable.
I just noticed that my article "Understanding Your Symptoms While Adjusting To vaping" in the ECF library has been modified a fair bit by one or more admins. I'm posting this message to ask that the article be restored to its original form.
I went to great lengths to ensure that this article was as accurate as I could make it, substantiated by studies, research, and/or literature with good credentials for correctness.
A number of the changes someone has made to the article undermine that accuracy.
Some examples of changes I object to in the article:
1. "99.9% of 'symptoms' experienced by new users..." Really, 99.9%? A number like that is just picked out of the air, has no right to be in this article.
2. "Many people have reported a wide variety of syptoms when using ecigarettes but these are the result of tobacco withdrawal." We do not know this. Taken literally this is false, we do know that some things (e.g. hiccups from swallowing fluid) are NOT the result of tobacco withdrawal. This blanket statement has no place in this article.
3. "For example common symptoms are the Quit Zits, an acne or similar outbreak of spots, and mouth ulcers." I am aware of the anecdotal reports regarding these symptoms. However I was not able to find any scientific study of them. On the whole it appears that more people have acne improved than worsened by quitting smoking. A couple of articles of interest:
Smoking and acne - does smoking cause pimples?
ScienceDirect - Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology : Underestimated clinical features of postadolescent acne
Given the anecdotal evidence, I do not doubt that quitting smoking may trigger acne in some people. But the linkage is not understood. It may simply be due to stress/hormonal changes, not directly linked. And it may well be triggered in some people by the vaping, they might not have had acne if they had just quit smoking. The point is, we do not know. I might have added something about this to my original article if someone had asked me to. But the changes which someone else has made are completely unnacceptable to me. They are not a known truth, they are just a guess.
4. "Here is a link to a more comprehensive list of tobacco withdrawal symptoms: ..." That is not a list I would link to with an air of authority. It contains some speculative material which is not identified as such.
Finally, I want to point out that it is plain wrong to alter someone else's writings with a mere mention at the end that "This post has been edited / reorganized to emphasize the fact that symptoms of tobacco withdrawal should not be attributed to ecigarette use." The reader now has no way of knowing what I, Mister, wrote and what I didn't. Most readers will probably without thinking attribute things to me which I did not say. If you want me to change the article, ask me. If you want to make changes to the article you can either add to the original with each addition clearly marked as an editor's note, but with nothing changed or removed, or you can write a new article reusing the material and crediting me for the original. Changing words which are still attributed to me is unnacceptable.
@Mister
Your post was edited because we have a new policy in effect to prevent our material being misused by the pharmaceutical industry front organizations. One of them published a nasty 'pack of lies' article that included several references of the following type: "Don't use e-cigarettes - why use something with dangerous effects that include severe acne, outbreaks of mouth ulcers, ........, insomnia, irritability, anger, inability to concentrate..... etc etc?"
Very funny but a little worrying as many people believe this sort of propaganda, as evidenced by the success of the FDA's lies.
Even more worrying when it was realized that this 'list of symptoms when vaping' was lifted directly from ECF, from one of the posts that helpfully lists symptoms of tobacco withdrawal but was titled something like "A list of symptoms when adjusting to an e-cigarette" or something similar.
We will not allow any further posts that do not make it absolutely clear that these 'symptoms' are the result of tobacco withdrawal. We certainly don't need people creating ammunition for our enemies to use against us. The problem is that some of these posts looked official, well-researched, and as if they were posted by medical specialists in the addiction field. Since the titles and/or content did not make it clear that tobacco withdrawal is the culprit, something had to be done.
Your post in the Library has now been deleted in accordance with your wishes. The bulk of the text has been incorporated into a new sticky post in the Medical section and I will be glad to attribute it to you, or give an attribution to you as original creator, or as contributor, as you wish.
As you quite rightly state, all statements / opinions / symptoms reported on any subject within this area are indeed entirely anecdotal. Until such time as firm evidence is presented on any of these issues, we will continue to regard reports of issues related either to tobacco withdrawal or e-cigarette use as anecdotal.
Once again please note carefully that posts that look too 'official' and make claims about 'symptoms of vaping' will be deleted (unless posted by an MD working in this field and cleared with us in advance). We are not going to support speculation that fuels our adversaries' efforts. Also please note that I am in no way trying to censor reports of symptoms experienced by an individual that can be directly related to e-cigarette use; in fact I would like to see these well-reported and investigated further, and have itemized one or two cases of this sort in the other sticky in the Medical section listing withdrawal symptoms. However there is a difference between incidents that can be directly related to to vaping, of which there are very few indeed, and the currently popular pastime of mentioning every possible physical ailment from rickets to malaria and attributing them to vaping.
As you note, I don't accept PMs, because people wrongly assume I run the forum and used to contact me, frequently, on matters relating to forum issues. The forum is under the control of the Forum Manager. All our contacts are listed on the Contacts page, which is linked to at the top and bottom of every page on ECF.
Your post was edited because we have a new policy in effect to prevent our material being misused by the pharmaceutical industry front organizations. One of them published a nasty 'pack of lies' article that included several references of the following type: "Don't use e-cigarettes - why use something with dangerous effects that include severe acne, outbreaks of mouth ulcers, ........, insomnia, irritability, anger, inability to concentrate..... etc etc?"
Very funny but a little worrying as many people believe this sort of propaganda, as evidenced by the success of the FDA's lies.
Even more worrying when it was realized that this 'list of symptoms when vaping' was lifted directly from ECF, from one of the posts that helpfully lists symptoms of tobacco withdrawal but was titled something like "A list of symptoms when adjusting to an e-cigarette" or something similar.
We will not allow any further posts that do not make it absolutely clear that these 'symptoms' are the result of tobacco withdrawal. We certainly don't need people creating ammunition for our enemies to use against us. The problem is that some of these posts looked official, well-researched, and as if they were posted by medical specialists in the addiction field. Since the titles and/or content did not make it clear that tobacco withdrawal is the culprit, something had to be done.
Your post in the Library has now been deleted in accordance with your wishes. The bulk of the text has been incorporated into a new sticky post in the Medical section and I will be glad to attribute it to you, or give an attribution to you as original creator, or as contributor, as you wish.
As you quite rightly state, all statements / opinions / symptoms reported on any subject within this area are indeed entirely anecdotal. Until such time as firm evidence is presented on any of these issues, we will continue to regard reports of issues related either to tobacco withdrawal or e-cigarette use as anecdotal.
Once again please note carefully that posts that look too 'official' and make claims about 'symptoms of vaping' will be deleted (unless posted by an MD working in this field and cleared with us in advance). We are not going to support speculation that fuels our adversaries' efforts. Also please note that I am in no way trying to censor reports of symptoms experienced by an individual that can be directly related to e-cigarette use; in fact I would like to see these well-reported and investigated further, and have itemized one or two cases of this sort in the other sticky in the Medical section listing withdrawal symptoms. However there is a difference between incidents that can be directly related to to vaping, of which there are very few indeed, and the currently popular pastime of mentioning every possible physical ailment from rickets to malaria and attributing them to vaping.
As you note, I don't accept PMs, because people wrongly assume I run the forum and used to contact me, frequently, on matters relating to forum issues. The forum is under the control of the Forum Manager. All our contacts are listed on the Contacts page, which is linked to at the top and bottom of every page on ECF.
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Obviously that stuff was not lifted from my article because my article did not mention acne nor mouth ulcers. At least not until an admin added such references. That title sounds like it was lifted from a particular thread I know of which contained so much misinformation that it was one of the things which motivated me to write the article in the first place.
My article did not contain anything which could be used negatively unless taken far out of context. And if others choose to do that, no amount of editing will prevent them from finding an endless supply of material on this site.
I said nothing of the kind. I said that statements about acne and mouth ulcers are anecdotal. Which is the reason I didn't include them in my original article. Did you check the annotations and references in my article? Every symptom I did include does have credible references which were noted in the article. I actually researched well over 10 times the number of sites than are listed in the article, most of them scientific references vs. the predominance of more user friendly sites I chose as final references to be linked. From about half of the references I read I tabulated and cross-referenced information and wordings. I then discarded sites which had questionable information (not mentioned by any credible study), and then finally reduced the sites I linked to two for each major category which required substantiation.
I started my article by disclaiming medical knowledge. Despite that it was one of the best researched articles on this site with links to authoritative sources for all the symptoms I listed and classified. OTOH the changes some admin made to the article included NO reference to any authority AND did not state (as they should according to your second last statement above) that they were based only on anecdotal evidence.
And just to be entirely clear here, NOT all symptoms are caused by tobacco withdrawal. A new vaper may experience some unpleasant symptoms due to consuming more nicotine than they are used to. This particularly applies to the subset who need other tobacco alkaloids and thus may mistakenly increase their intake in the search for satisfaction. Would you go so far as to deny helpful discussion of these unpleasant symptoms some may experience when trying to convert to vaping, and the assistance we can give those people? Of course not. You've retained that information in the new edited version of my article. And still you say that "We will not allow any further posts that do not make it absolutely clear that these 'symptoms' are the result of tobacco withdrawal." Check yourself. There is a difference between editing poor content which is unsubstantiated vs. editing content which admits some unpleasant possibilities but is factually demonstrated, accurate, and helpful toward solving the issue.
I did not ask for it to be deleted. I asked for it to be restored to original condition so that the innaccurate alterations would be undone. The article was very well received by the community. I wrote it to help new vapers with the very common problems of understanding which symptoms to ignore (quitting tar, CO, etc. symptoms), working out whether to increase or decrease their vaping, and whether they're in the subgroup who require more than just nicotine and the smoking experience. I don't think there is another good article on these subjects. You are removing factual information with supporting evidence, which can help new vapers, because those antis who don't care about facts might misuse it?
This new article is less correct than the original. I see that it even contains at least one new unsubstantiated change beyond the previous edits to my writing. I don't want my name on it.
A final comment: Your reply does not address any of the concerns I raised. You did not address the innaccuracy of the changes I cited, which were made without my consent or knowledge. And you didn't address the changing of writing which readers will attribute to an author - instead you seem to defend the idea that statements attributed to an author can, even when they refer to accredited knowledge as I did in the original article (not a necessary condition to my thinking but all the worse in that case), be arbitrarily changed by someone else in a position of sufficient power. Delete? Yes, I understand that if you find content disagreeable. Annotate if you want a post to remain but add notes? Fine. But change without the author's agreement nor qualification of the changes so that they are clearly identified? No way.
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Great post, I have found that getting some e-liquid in my mouth has stopped some of the cravings. This happend by accident at first, but now when I am having a craving that I need something more than vaping can give me, I just take a drop of my juice and hold it in my mouth. It seems to calm me down.
I wish I had found Mister's article a few weeks ago. I was having a tough time identifying the meaning of the symptoms I was having. I did not know whether they were caused by getting too much nicotine or too little. His article does a good job describing the various symptoms. I would hate to increase my nicotine intake, thinking I needed more, when I was actually in an overdosing state. Mister's explanation of the difference between nicotine withdrawal and cigarette withdrawal was very informative and something I had never given much thought to.
That being said, I understand Rolygate's point of view. It's a shame though that in today's society people have to be so careful about what they say for fear that their statements will be taken out of context and used against them. When I first started investigating e-cigs I found the fda reaction rather amusing. I now find it rather disgraceful! IMO if they were truly interested in public health they would be encouraging the use of e-cigs.
That being said, I understand Rolygate's point of view. It's a shame though that in today's society people have to be so careful about what they say for fear that their statements will be taken out of context and used against them. When I first started investigating e-cigs I found the fda reaction rather amusing. I now find it rather disgraceful! IMO if they were truly interested in public health they would be encouraging the use of e-cigs.
Either way this is great information! I was wondering why I had dry lips and mouth...guess I need to drink a WHOLE bunch more water. Thank you very much for the great info!
@rolygate:
The new sticky at http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cigarette-users-guide-tobacco-withdrawal.html is more likely to create opportunities for our enemies than my original article because:
1. It is now attributed to an ECF staff member.
2. It no longer contains the disclaimer which was at the start of my original article.
3. It presents at least one conjecture as if it were a fact, which if attacked cannot be backed up by facts.
I'd like to ask: Are you the admin who made the changes to my article? I'm wondering if that is why I'm having so much difficulty showing you what is so wrong here. If any other admin/moderator changed someone's carefully researched and substantiated article on this site, inserting unsubstantiated statements based only on their own opinion, would you not take that person to task?
The new sticky at http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cigarette-users-guide-tobacco-withdrawal.html is more likely to create opportunities for our enemies than my original article because:
1. It is now attributed to an ECF staff member.
2. It no longer contains the disclaimer which was at the start of my original article.
3. It presents at least one conjecture as if it were a fact, which if attacked cannot be backed up by facts.
I'd like to ask: Are you the admin who made the changes to my article? I'm wondering if that is why I'm having so much difficulty showing you what is so wrong here. If any other admin/moderator changed someone's carefully researched and substantiated article on this site, inserting unsubstantiated statements based only on their own opinion, would you not take that person to task?
Not a problem. The issues discussed are well-known to be associated with tobacco withdrawal or nic OD and so on. You provided a well-researched article to which I added some missing elements, and removed others that had the potential to cause confusion (such as the title). I believe I forgot to thank you for this article and would like to repair that omission - thank you. But please note that we all need an editor, it is not possible to publish a perfect document without assistance from a third party. Apart from anything else, in this area at the current time there are all sorts of issues which some writers may not be aware of, and that mean some types of articles need more than one person's input.
Not necessary now in my judgement.
Please identify this item.
The main factors in whether material is extracted and used against us are twofold:
1. If an article is titled "Symptoms of e-cigarette use" or something similar, inferring that the matters discussed result from using an ecig; and
2. If symptoms are presented as being related in some way to ecig use rather than tobacco withdrawal.
Neither of these two now apply.
Yes it's me. Depends on who's making the statements and how reasonable those statements are.
We simply aren't going to allow posts any more that look as if they are official that can be inferred in any way to be presenting symptoms of tobacco withdrawal as 'symptoms of vaping'. The title was especially problematic since the matters under discussion are essentially issues related to tobacco withdrawal, not issues caused by vaping except as a subset of the tobacco cessation problems. It appears that you are still unable to see this.
As to the correctness or otherwise of any statements now present, there are no facts as such concerning the medical implications of ecig use, at present. It's all conjecture and anecdotal evidence. With regard to tobacco withdrawal the situation is a little more firm.
Great post. Answered questions alot of us have when we begin vaping. (I know I did)
Sticky? yes i think so
Just read the post above me and it makes sence. Sticky? maybe not.
Sure is alot more fun to be a member adverses an administrator of this forum, lol
Thanks mods for all you do
Sticky? yes i think so
Just read the post above me and it makes sence. Sticky? maybe not.
Sure is alot more fun to be a member adverses an administrator of this forum, lol
Thanks mods for all you do
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I was wondering the same thing, so I'm glad you asked. I started out at 12...quickly moved to 18 and now am at 24...where I probably should have started. After only 1 week I met a veteran and when I told him I was about 85% satisfied but that was enough to keep me from real cigs, he suggested I go up to 24...he was right.
that is the direction i'm moving in , just be carefull as I have found that I tend to vape more than i smoked.........some sort of compensation thing, be aware of the overall Nic. level you are taking in daily...................best to you, carl
I'm sorry mister. I really feel what they did was wrong. This was great information. Really disgusting to me.
This was not meant to be a perfect post and I don't need a third party to make it so.. Thank you
This was not meant to be a perfect post and I don't need a third party to make it so.. Thank you
You've called it "guide to tobacco withdrawal." That describes just a subset of the article. It is not just about withdrawal. It is also about getting too much nicotine, which is rather the opposite of withdrawal, and its primary focus was to help people to understand their symptoms, whether caused by withdrawal from tobacco or caused by vaping too much. Your new title may well cause confusion because it misrepresents the article.
You did not provide input. You flipped things around so that I provided input, you had control.
I have not read your modified version carefully to consider all changes, additions, and deletions you may have done. I remain hopeful that you will recognize that you overstepped, that you'll restore my original article, and then perhaps provide me with some input if you want things changed.
I do see that you've fixed a couple of things I mentioned in my first post.
Some objections I have just from a quick skim of your current version of the modified article:
Point 4 at the start opens with a plainly false sentence. It then goes on to mention acne and mouth ulcers. I have only found anecdotal evidence for those two symptoms from quitting tobacco. They are not in the same category as the symptoms I included in the original. All the symptoms I wrote about have scientific evidence. I did not find any for these symptoms and removed them from my starting (huge!) list. If you had asked me to add something about these symptoms I would have researched them more and then written what can be said about them. It would probably be far more qualified than the comment you've made. I would have made it clear that these symptoms are based on anecdotal evidence and that we do not know whether vaping might result in less or more of these symptoms than simply quitting tobacco. Because that is the plain truth. If you want to suppress this truth because the antis might pick up on it, I'll have no part of it. I'm happy to fight antis with the truth which is extremely compelling in its own right. Helping new vapers trumps hiding some potential downsides from the antis.
At the start you've added a sideways reference to MAOIs. I know there have been discussions of them but so far there is no evidence, even anecdotal, that they are a significant factor in all of this. They seem to be fun for some people to talk about and to create theories around. I wouldn't use any variation of the term MAO at all because of the number of posts I've seen where people go off on tangents once they think MAOIs are a factor in quitting. What we do have strong evidence for is that for some people, some tobacco alkaloids other than nicotine are part of their addiction to tobacco. My article already covered that.
I would also note that the new first paragraph is poor writing style. It opens the article with a tangential reference to a subject which is not the focus of the article. I am not a highly skilled writer but I know enough to see that you've made the first paragraph worse by violating a basic writing rule. If you think my article needs an editor, please assign someone who has skills and experience as an editor.
I reiterate that the added reference "Here is a link to a more comprehensive list of tobacco withdrawal symptoms: "
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...hen-quitting-tobacco-changing-ecigarette.html does not belong in this article, at least not unless highly qualified. That linked post presents a lot of information which is anecdotal and possibly false, as if it were known truth. My article presents (I should say, it used to!) only well supported information which there is evidence to treat it as truth.
Ok. Clearly I am at a disadvantage. You can both make changes without my approval and then decide whether your changes were ok for you to make. May I suggest that you ask some of your peers on ECF to review our discussion here and issue an opinion?
There are posts on this forum which clearly indicate that the poster is using a higher nicotine level of juice than they require. "except as a subset of the tobacco cessation problems" is denial of the truth. There ARE symptoms which are due to vaping. Denying something which is unpleasant to some new vapers and should be discussed here, to avoid a problem with the antis instead of dealing with it head-on, does a great disservice to the vaping community by hiding important facts from the people we most care about. And does it unnecessarily. The downsides of vaping are nothing when compared with the upsides. Why deny that they exist at all? THAT provides the antis with ammunition. In addition to reducing our ability to support those new vapers who experience some downsides.
And my title was at least accurate. If you want to change it please propose an alternative which is also accurate. The article was about understanding symptoms which can occur, with statistically significant and scientifically demonstrated incidence, due to quitting smoking and/or due to intaking nicotine, which we do know to be a possible result of vaping.
Bunk. All of the symptom related information in my original article are facts (i.e. supported by credible research), known to be true for one or more of tobacco withdrawal, nicotine withdrawal, and/or nicotine intake. You have added information which IS "conjecture and anecdotal" to an article I carefully wrote to present facts and to exclude the kind of information you describe and which you have added to the article.
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I have now gone more carefully through the entire revised article. I have a number of concerns in addition to those I've already voiced. There are additional unsupported statements (e.g. the statement that mouth ulcers are a common symptom) and additional poor writing (e.g. incomplete removal of first person.)
Since I don't see my greater concerns being addressed I won't bother to do a detailed writeup of all the smaller issues. Suffice to say that I believe the modified version of the article is in far greater need of editing than my original version was.
Since I don't see my greater concerns being addressed I won't bother to do a detailed writeup of all the smaller issues. Suffice to say that I believe the modified version of the article is in far greater need of editing than my original version was.
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