The Cessation Claim

[Racehorse]

BUT, have you heard of a patch forum or a nico-gum forum?

chopdoc, I have to inform you that the number of "quit" sites out there, where people help each other quit smoking, before vaping, are and were quite prolific.

So yes, there are many forums out there and always have been, for disucssing and using all forms of NRT. Too many to count. It also comes up in topics on non related forums all the time, like on my book swaps.

At any rate, I'm glad you quit and found vaping, and sorry about your Dad. Also notice you said oilfield, there seems to be a lot more people iin blue collar type jobs who still smoke than white collar ..... just an observation I've made........also in the south. When l moved to small town in AR from NE I was quite surpriised how many people still smoked. I really ddn't know many people who still smoked before this....I mean, it just wasn't as numerous.

 

[Racehorse]

I do think it would help some potential users to not think of vaping as way to replace smoking. Like don't even advocate for that, and let it be entirely up to the person.

Also seems a little weird to me that we celebrate people quitting smoking here but not too much celebrating going on for dual users that have cut way back.

I agree.

Start celebrating........Invite everyone, quit or not quit.

 

[CES]

This has been an interesting read....

I had a few thoughts run through my head as i read it, and they may come across as a little disjointed or choppy, because they come from both what people are saying here, my own experiences, and what i see with some of my friends/acquaintances.

I think that the quit rate is much higher here on ECF. Partly because the support comes in quite handy when getting through the fiddly stuff. But also, many of us who have moved from smoking stay, while those who don't tend to stop posting (in general, not 100%). It's a self-selected group.

I completely disagree that you have to "want" to quit. For some yes, but again not so for all. Certainly not for me. I was a dual user for about 6 weeks, and my transition away from smoking was a complete surprise to me. I didn't believe i'd ever be able to switch over, because i liked smoking. I didn't like waking up coughing and choking, but quitting based on willpower wasn't going to happen. ECF answered (and still does) most of my questions before i even knew there was something to ask. So yeah, it's a support group, but anymore i'm mainly still here for the social connection.

More and more of my friends and acquaintances vape now. None are on ECF. Many are dual users. For now. One tried off and on for a couple of years, then she made the choice to completely switch. She did need "willpower" and struggled with the fiddly bits. Another friend took right to vaping, he quit smoking and then vaping within 6 months. A couple of years later, he still does neither. Another who was at best mildly interested, now has a 1300mAh VV ego and a tank, but she'll still go outside for a cig now and then . The others are making the choices that work for them, some use it only where they can't smoke, others go back and forth and struggle with the fiddly bits and the learning curve. A few have tried it, but given up on it for now. In my small circle, the 100% switch rate is about 30%, but the number of people who have decreased the amount they smoke is another 40-50%.

We're all different. But that's fine. Good even. We still have the choices. The equipment is getting more and more consistent, and more and more available. As long as we can keep the choices available, people will have the option of substituting vaping for smoking to whatever extent they wish, be it 10% or 100%.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Here is a cut and pasted, pretty good description of addiction:

Addiction is a state defined by compulsive engagement in naturally rewarding behavior or compulsive drug use, despite adverse consequences; it can be thought of as a disease or biological process leading to such behaviors.

According to many addiction specialists, potential non-drug addictions can include, but are not limited to, exercise addiction, food addiction, computer addiction, sex addiction and gambling. Currently, only substance addictions and gambling addiction are recognized by the DSM-5. ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is now known to be a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions. Classic hallmarks of addiction include impaired control over substances or behavior, preoccupation with substance or behavior, continued use despite consequences, and denial. Habits and patterns associated with addiction are typically characterized by immediate gratification (short-term reward), coupled with delayed deleterious effects (long-term costs).

Denial is simply "my case is different. I am special." "No one could possibly understand my case." Another way to state ones' denial would be : "We are not all alike." This is a CLASSIC statement of addiction denial. MY case is special. MY case is different. We could not POSSIBLY be alike. More comedy.

Millions of alcoholics have recovered from alcoholism using the AA 12 step model. All of these alcoholics have UNIVERSALLY common emotion, feeling and traits. They all have extremely similar personality characteristics. They are ALL alike

 

[AndriaD]

Millions of alcoholics have recovered from alcoholism using the AA 12 step model. All of these alcoholics have UNIVERSALLY common emotion, feeling and traits. They all have extremely similar personality characteristics. They are ALL alike

No, they're not. My husband quit drinking when I did, 22 yrs ago. Since then, he's gone to meetings only to see me pick up a chip. Nevertheless, he is sober, a recovering alcoholic. He and I met in AA 28 yrs ago, and he had been attending sporadically for many years -- he has internalized the 12 step program. I haven't been to a meeting in several years, but I am sober, a recovering alcoholic; I have now also internalized the 12 step program. I really don't think Bill W was trying to found a religion that required forever attendance; he created a tool, for the purpose of getting a life, and then keeping it -- it works.

Andria

 

[Racehorse]

Classic hallmarks of addiction include <snip> preoccupation with substance or behavior

I don't agree with this 100% but let me pick it apart:

Most people who vape here seem to fall into that category.....most love vaping, and most use nicotine ejuice.

By your definition, or the one you copied and pasted, it would seem that they haven't made strides except that they are now addicted to harm reduction method.


Would you say that calling it a "hobby" is a form of denial then? Just a for-instance.

Trying to "get" where you're coming from. Is it okay to be "addicted" and/or preoccupied (meaning requires some preparation, purchase, fiddling, etc. on daily basis) with something that is harm reduction or does it still qualify as addiction/dependency?

Do the millions of alchoholics you speak of have some form of fulfilling their dependency? I know nothing about it but I imagine it requires nothing less than COLD TURKEY/NEVER AGAIN. There's nothing like 'fake wild turkey" etc.


"Millions of alcoholics have recovered from alcoholism using the AA 12 step model"

HOw exactly does using a common methodology assume that all who use it are "alike"?


That seems like a huge leap in logic and assumption. All that says is that certain guidelines in a model work for a lot o people, not that they are all alike.

That's like saying certain forms of psychotherapy work and therefore all people undergoing therapy are the same. Or certain diets work so everyone using the diet is alike.

When I was researching reasons why people smoke when I was a smoker, I found out that people smoke for very different reasons........


"All of these alcoholics have UNIVERSALLY common emotion, feeling and traits."

Yes, we are all human. We all bleed. Everyone knows what sadness, grief, joy, nervousness, compassion, happiness, feels like. That is because being the same species, we share many traits. That doesn't mean your neurotransmitters, metabolism, or biology works the same as mine (god help you if they do )

 

[AndriaD]

I don't agree with this 100% but let me pick it apart:

Most people who vape here seem to fall into that category.....most love vaping, and most use nicotine ejuice.

By your definition, or the one you copied and pasted, it would seem that they haven't made strides except that they are now addicted to harm reduction method.


Would you say that calling it a "hobby" is a form of denial then? Just a for-instance.

Trying to "get" where you're coming from. Is it okay to be "addicted" and/or preoccupied (meaning requires some preparation, purchase, fiddling, etc. on daily basis) with something that is harm reduction or does it still qualify as addiction/dependency?

Do the millions of alchoholics you speak of have some form of fulfilling their dependency? I know nothing about it but I imagine it requires nothing less than COLD TURKEY/NEVER AGAIN. There's nothing like 'fake wild turkey" etc.


"Millions of alcoholics have recovered from alcoholism using the AA 12 step model"

HOw exactly does using a common methodology assume that all who use it are "alike"?


That seems like a huge leap in logic and assumption. All that says is that certain guidelines in a model work for a lot o people, not that they are all alike.

That's like saying certain forms of psychotherapy work and therefore all people undergoing therapy are the same. Or certain diets work so everyone using the diet is alike.

When I was researching reasons why people smoke when I was a smoker, I found out that people smoke for very different reasons........

There are aspects of alcoholism, indeed all addiction, that are very common, in fact possibly universal amongst those who suffer any type of addiction. There are degrees -- the "bottom" to which one falls before seeking treatment/recovery, beyond which one is not willing to go, and everyone's "bottom" is different -- I got sober when it was going to mean daily worship of the porcelain goddess; my dad quit when he was constantly either in detox or the drunk tank; my mom FINALLY quit when she was diagnosed with cirrhosis, after having watched her brother die of cirrhosis just a few years before.

The 12 step program is a very effective method of dealing with, indeed, complete abstention -- probably the most effective method ever devised, which is why courts and rehab centers send people to meetings, but it only works for those who are willing to completely embrace the program, for some period of time -- "90 meetings in 90 days" is frequently advised as the best way to get "sober enough" to make your first year of sobriety -- but the program also has to become the basis of one's life, the unrelenting honesty with the self which it requires -- and that honesty changes you, so that sobriety is possible, and remains possible. One thing I've heard over and over is, "go to meetings, and don't drink." But in fact, the only part that's truly REQUIRED to stay sober, is the "don't drink" part. If the program is fully internalized, then one learns the tools which make that "don't drink" possible.

Andria

 

[chopdoc]

I think we are all gonna have to just agree to disagree. A lot of good information has been shared as well as many opinions yet at the end of the day no one is going to be swayed one way or another. I myself will continue to advocate for vaping and bring new people into the vaping community. Today alone I talked with two people about my painless quiting smoking journey and pointed them to local shops where they can get started kits. Another person just starting out asked me to make some juices for her. Told her give me $5 for each 30 ml bottle to cover my cost and now I have an order to fill.

I know we are all different yet if sharing the path I took helps others quit smoking then I am glad to share and help. Before last July I didnt even know vaping other than the Blu kind existed. Now I have friends coming to my house asking if I will fix their thingy (rebuild their coils) and I am glad to help. In the short time I been on this journey I know a few people who seen what I did and they also quit and I am proud of them. And I will always be amazed at how easy it was to break the 40 year hold tobacco had on me.

 

[ProjektMayhem]

I smoked for about 9 years pack a day and the first time I vaped was with a $10 cigalike from the gas station in 2011. That didn't last long but this year I tried a better cigalike and quit within a week. The first few days were kinda rough but after that I started feeling so much better and using 24mg nic I didn't crave too much. And I haven't smoked since then.

 

[WharfRat1976]

The solution is identical for the millions I speak of- so that would equate to those same millions having----------the same problem...BINGO.

The "root" of the alcoholics problem is "selfishness and self-centeredness." For the non-alcoholic it is an impossible concept to grasp. From this selfishness stem the causes and conditions of the disease; the addiction so to speak.

The drinking or in the case of the addict, the substance abuse is merely THE SYMPTOM of the disease or the addiction. The causes and conditions are some of the following with selfishness triggering most of it: In no particular order:
1. Fear
2. Self Pity
4. Resentments
5. Trouble with personal relationships
6. Greed (add the rest of the "deadly sins.")
7. EGO
I could add 30 more universal character traits of the alcoholic/addict. All of these add up to a spiritual void. A spiritual emptiness that needs to be filled. Many fill it with addiction which per the definition I posted earlier can become destructive and in many cases, lethal.

The "solution" to the above emotions and character traits is the substance. These causes and conditions at their core are the real problem and the driver of the addiction. It is never the substance itself.

Analogs are highly addictive. We all know that. There is the physical addition to nicotine and the tars that stick it into the cells. I believe vaping is highly addictive as well. A test you can self perform is to simply STOP. Don't do it anymore. Quit for a day. Quit for a week. Can you quit at all? Can you quit for 6 months.

Saying you enjoy it and don't want to quit begs the question. The question is, can you?

Vaping addiction stems from a combination of nicotine first and foremost. The biggest factor to me is the spiritual malady; the spiritual void. This looks like for many as life is just never good enough. What do you do when you are alone. Do you have integrity, alone? The white picket fence is just never white enough. The vape and the ritual and the build up and the perusing the internet endlessly for vape info and gear is the foreplay; it is the real addiction in full force. It is never the act itself but the foreplay and build up to achieve the act, to perform the act. Keep a log as to how much time you spend in a week thinking about vaping. Think about that and then tell me you are not addicted. Log in your internet time looking at vape information.....astounding, huh.

Most addicts say I can take it or leave it alone; it's not a problem; I can quit anytime; no harm no foul here; I enjoy it; I can handle it; I don't have a problem; my intelligence can deal with this......

This is why total cessation of these types of activities is a very very low number; a low percentage. To me vaping is an addiction that simply replaces what I believe is a much more dangerous addiction. It is a swap to "reduce harm." It is addiction by any other name.

 

[CES]

IMO, shifting the thread into a discussion of "addiction", is a disservice to the conversation about the differences between people that allow some to switch immediately, some to take some time, some to do both, some to give up vaping etc. Giving the question a label that implies that all people are the same and if they haven't quit they are in denial shuts down the conversation.

Addiction has become a catch all term to define any behavior that provides pleasure and that we don't want someone else to do. I'm not saying that it's not a real thing, but that the word and concept are misused. Over use of the concept means that we can't search for answers anymore, cause the only answer is addiction. Not very helpful, and minimizes the heck out of what people go through on the path to sobriety.

Addiction in the context of substance abuse means that the substance and behavior interferes with daily functioning. And yep, the 12-steps work for a reasonable proportion of people.

There are physiological responses associated with physiological addiction, specifically release of dopamine from the nucleus accumbins. The problem is that everything that feels good, or anticipation of anything that feels good causes this dopamine release (food, sex, stuff that helps us survive). Addiction hijacks the biological pathway, and some substances really mess up its natural functioning- so that nothing feels as good as the substance.

But, dealing with addictive behaviors, drug seeking, denial, symptom substitution are all in the realm of the psychological and even with the biological underpinnings there are as many ideas about what addiction is as there are people who take the time to think them up.

Carl Phillips says it much better than i do Does ANYONE have a valid definition of “addiction”? | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

Searching for what works, learning about peoples experiences and any commonalities that exist is important, because maybe we can find the ways to best support the different subgroups of people (those who need nic, those who need WTA, those who need visible vaper, those who want the fiddle factor, those who get overwhelmed by the fiddle factor etc)

 

[jpargana]

I have a friend, and his wife, who first tried a 1st generation device I gave them, some four years ago - and failed.


About six months ago, they tried E-go style devices, and stopped smoking within a week. He has already moved on to mods.


Now, this friend of mine used to smoke almost FIVE PAD's. His wife used to smoke around three.

A little later, his father, who also used to smoke as much as my friend, tried and e-cig - and also quit.

Then, there was his stepmother, and then his mother-in-law... you get the picture.


It's amazing: in a single family, and in less than one month, five people - heavy smokers, all of them - have completely quit smoking.

In a single family, people have stopped buying around EIGHTEEN packs of cigarettes - every single day.


(That's REALLY why Govmt is soooo concerned about our "health", and our "safety" with e-cigarettes...)

 

[jdeedler]

Vaping is the only long term Method I know of atm. Its been 4 months and I have not gone back to smoking a pack a day or more. I have had a smoke a couple of times talking with a friend and the taste wasnt that great.
If I ever went back I would start smoking a Pipe with some good Tobacco.....

Anyhow Vaping does work if you want to stop smoking.

 

[MrsMac]

After catching up here, I'd just like to address the several times someone has stated that they disagree with the statement that you have to want to quit smoking. My original post wasn't a fact, it was my opinion on my experience and observation of others I know.

This is the first time I have truly wanted to quit and was able to do so by switching to vaping. I've stopped smoking a few others times out of necessity(being pregnant with my boys) or because of constant nagging by my husband and father. Those times were brief and because it wasn't what I wanted I went back to smoking asap with a book of justifications/excuses as to why.

I was 1 of 3 smokers left in my family out of 16 original smokers. Majority were able to quit using the patch or gum. I was able to briefly, but never successfully. To each his own honestly. I started smoking at a young age and it was my coping skill. Almost like a medication to someone who suffers from anxiety.

In MY experience personally wanting to stop smoking for myself(not for anyone or anything else) is what has made it possible. This isn't true for everyone and thus why it is my opinion and not a fact. Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't stating it is a must for others. In my mothers case I do believe her failure is due to her lack of wanting to. She doesn't want to for herself. She wants to because my many siblings(non smokers) are always on her ... about it.

If it has helped you quit smoking that's wonderful. If you're a dual user and it has helped you to cut back that's wonderful. Everyone here no matter their journey has something in common(We love to vape) and has accomplishments to be proud of. Each person should celebrate their accomplishment no matter what it is.

 

[philoshop]

Thanks for that link CES.(post #91) A very informative and provocative read and discussion.

 

[WharfRat1976]

IMO, shifting the thread into a discussion of "addiction", is a disservice to the conversation about the differences between people that allow some to switch immediately, some to take some time, some to do both, some to give up vaping etc. Giving the question a label that implies that all people are the same and if they haven't quit they are in denial shuts down the conversation.

Addiction has become a catch all term to define any behavior that provides pleasure and that we don't want someone else to do. I'm not saying that it's not a real thing, but that the word and concept are misused. Over use of the concept means that we can't search for answers anymore, cause the only answer is addiction. Not very helpful, and minimizes the heck out of what people go through on the path to sobriety.

Addiction in the context of substance abuse means that the substance and behavior interferes with daily functioning. And yep, the 12-steps work for a reasonable proportion of people.

There are physiological responses associated with physiological addiction, specifically release of dopamine from the nucleus accumbins. The problem is that everything that feels good, or anticipation of anything that feels good causes this dopamine release (food, sex, stuff that helps us survive). Addiction hijacks the biological pathway, and some substances really mess up its natural functioning- so that nothing feels as good as the substance.

But, dealing with addictive behaviors, drug seeking, denial, symptom substitution are all in the realm of the psychological and even with the biological underpinnings there are as many ideas about what addiction is as there are people who take the time to think them up.

Carl Phillips says it much better than i do Does ANYONE have a valid definition of “addiction”? | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

Searching for what works, learning about peoples experiences and any commonalities that exist is important, because maybe we can find the ways to best support the different subgroups of people (those who need nic, those who need WTA, those who need visible vaper, those who want the fiddle factor, those who get overwhelmed by the fiddle factor etc)

Yes and well thought out post. The other hallmark of addiction denial is to call it anything OTHER than addiction. In the context of smoking cessation, I do not think there is a more perfect and exact word than addiction. Nic, WTA, fiddle factor, needing vaper, dopamine release, pleasure pathways. In its most elemental form, I am simply a "rat to a hunk of cheese" a million times a day.

Calling it something other than addiction is just more denial for me. Why am I addicted to vaping, for the identical reasons I am addicted to smoking. It makes me feel better, it gives me something to do. I am commenting on this forum thinking about it. The pleasure pathways are carved deeply into my brain stems. Who wants to exercise and get healthy- it requires work. Underneath it all is the void. Is this all there is. I find community in vaping to feed my addiction further. Okay, back to my vape lab to mix and rebuild and rewick and to polish and clean. Another rat to my hunk of cheese.

"May favorite short definition of addiction: Persistent use despite negative consequences." THR is Tobacco Harm Reduction. Harm reduction implies negative consequences as "harm" is never a good thing. Why isn't it TE; Tobacco Eradication. The addict always rationalizes and minimizes any harm involved. The Carl Phillips link to me is fairly elemental. He is another matador waving his cape at the Bull. It does not sound like he is very well versed in the field. He is also advocating a position in his extreme bias.

 

[CES]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because to me, the labels aren't very helpful. Then again, I've had only positive consequences associated with vaping, so that works for me too

ETA: maybe better, i guess we could just recognize that our experiences are different, since that is closer to the the theme of the thread.

 

[Racehorse]

Yes and well thought out post. The other hallmark of addiction denial is to call it anything OTHER than addiction. In the context of smoking cessation, I do not think there is a more perfect and exact word than addiction. Nic, WTA, fiddle factor, needing vaper, dopamine release, pleasure pathways. In its most elemental form, I am simply a "rat to a hunk of cheese" a million times a day.

Calling it something other than addiction is just more denial for me. Why am I addicted to vaping, for the identical reasons I am addicted to smoking. It makes me feel better, it gives me something to do. I am commenting on this forum thinking about it. The pleasure pathways are carved deeply into my brain stems. Who wants to exercise and get healthy- it requires work. Underneath it all is the void. Is this all there is. I find community in vaping to feed my addiction further. Okay, back to my vape lab to mix and rebuild and rewick and to polish and clean. Another rat to my hunk of cheese.

"May favorite short definition of addiction: Persistent use despite negative consequences." THR is Tobacco Harm Reduction. Harm reduction implies negative consequences as "harm" is never a good thing. Why isn't it TE; Tobacco Eradication. The addict always rationalizes and minimizes any harm involved. The Carl Phillips link to me is fairly elemental. He is another matador waving his cape at the Bull. It does not sound like he is very well versed in the field. He is also advocating a position in his extreme bias.

I agree with CES, this might not be the topic to discuss this further, because within this topic it can seem judgemental.......but if you started a new topic it might be interesting.

"Calling it something other than addiction is just more denial for me." Maybe a topic about whether vaping can truly be a "hobby", then, based on what you know/learned about addiction

 

[WharfRat1976]

Was thinking yesterday about the cessation claim of smokers to vapers. I'm not one that has ceased smoking, but am one who has cut so far back that when anyone asks me "are you a smoker," I hesitate for a good 5 seconds and usually respond with, "I'm a happy moderate smoker. Haven't had a smoke in x amount of days."

Anyway, yesterday I was thinking about the many vapers on forums who are (or were):
A. heavy smokers (3+ packs a day)
B. long time smokers (30+ years)
C. having no intention to stop smoking
D. and went on to cease smoking within first week of vaping.

That, IMO, is amazing. I don't know of any other cessation method that could work that well. I was also thinking, yesterday, that I'm kinda surprised cessation isn't 100%. Then followed that up with idea that I'm not part of the cessation crowd, but am part of crowd that has reduced so greatly that I often wonder how any vaper (of open system devices) could continue on as heavy smoker. I honestly find that impossible unless one is trying to do both just to prove some, rather juvenile, point. About 3 weeks ago, I had all of 6 smokes in a day. Vaped normally after that, and it was another week before I had another smoke. As one who's quit cold turkey, I don't think it would be possible to have 6 smokes in a day, have one a week later, and not soon be back to smoking a pack a day or more.

Vaping takes heavy smoking and, rather quickly, reduces it to light smoker and as demonstrated by A, B, C and D above, can take very heavy smoker and reduce them to non-smoker in 7 days or less. I continue to be amazed by stories of people that smoked twice as much as me at my peak (of heavy smoking) and who when trying vaping cut down to zero smokes in a very short period of time.

I am honestly a little surprised that the cessation rate isn't at or very close to 100% for those who do wish to stop smoking. For those who don't, I would be a little amazed if it didn't reduce them to moderate smoker, though with stipulation that might take some time (like 90 days, maybe a little longer). And yet, there are plenty of stories around (online) where the heaviest of smokers with zero intention to quit, have quit smoking in less than a week via vaping. Again, that continues to amaze me.

My apologies but the only thing I glean from this original post is the word addiction. The word cessation seems to go hand in hand with the word addiction; for me anyway. I would never need to utter the word cessation if there was not something I needed to "cessate" from

New thread idea sounds good. I obviously have opinions and thoughts on the matter and many years of experience with 1000's of people.

Thousands dying everyday and millions dying every year from "smoking" and other maladies could only be the result of addiction. Now "hobbying" is a horse of a different color...

 

[WharfRat1976]

There are physiological responses associated with physiological addiction, specifically release of dopamine from the nucleus accumbins. The problem is that everything that feels good, or anticipation of anything that feels good causes this dopamine release (food, sex, stuff that helps us survive). Addiction hijacks the biological pathway, and some substances really mess up its natural functioning- so that nothing feels as good as the substance.

But, dealing with addictive behaviors, drug seeking, denial, symptom substitution are all in the realm of the psychological and even with the biological underpinnings there are as many ideas about what addiction is as there are people who take the time to think them up.

I mean C'Mon. With ability to write something this good why would you bother linking to Carl Phillips. I get that you get it. Bill Wilson was the greatest social architect of our times- IMHO. He created, along with the help of many others in all the pertinent fields, a paradigm to solve one particular problem- namely alcoholism. It is not the panacea be all end all. We all know that. There are now over 300, 12 step programs that deal with all kinds of "addictive maladies." Bill was obviously onto something. This paradigm is very workable and does create "universalities" in the field. I guess that is what I am trying to say.

Thanks for the discussion. I think we have no disagreement. I remain open minded. I am not trying to be "judgmental" in any way.