Quit smoking, live 5 years less

[caramel]

That "healthy diet" crap is based on the same fraud they use against tobacco, namely falsely blaming them for diseases that are really caused by infection. [...]

Don't be so quick to dismiss that, we already have the example of tuberculosis. The cause is Mycobacteria, however the bug only thrives when accompanied by malnutrition and overcrowding.

Maybe something similar happens with the CMV you quote.

It would be fun to find out in the end that some diseases are poverty diseases not smoking ones. The government would then need to ban poverty.

 

[Kent C]

That "healthy diet" crap is based on the same fraud they use against tobacco, namely falsely blaming them for diseases that are really caused by infection. Poorer people are more likely to have been exposed to those infections, especially cytomegalovirus.

I may agree, but one of the studies says "Despite the established relationship between lower SEP (socioeconomic position) and traditional cardiovascular disease risk factors such as smoking, physical inactivity, higher body mass index (BMI) (kg/m2) and higher levels of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, the association between SEP and cardiovascular disease has not been fully explained in studies adjusting for traditional risk factors."

So there's an acknowledgment that, weight gain, which is what I was pointing to, wrt, stopping smoking, is still a factor. While I question the idea that a high fat diet has anything to do with gaining weight, since it has been established that carbohydrates (not calories, or fat intake) are the main determining factors of weight gain. If you're on a 1500 calorie diet and it consists of malted milk balls, milkshakes and pop tarts, you're still going to gain weight vs. a low carb diet.

 

[AndriaD]

Don't be so quick to dismiss that, we already have the example of tuberculosis. The cause is Mycobacteria, however the bug only thrives when accompanied by malnutrition and overcrowding.

Maybe something similar happens with the CMV you quote.

It would be fun to find out in the end that some diseases are poverty diseases not smoking ones. The government would then need to ban poverty.

Didn't Johnson try that, back in the 60s? I seem to recall something about "The War on Poverty"... but the great quote, dunno by whom, but it's true... "the poor are always with us" (paraphrase actually). And I've been one of them, on and off, for about 28 yrs -- when I met my current husband, I realized that having someone you love, who loves you and accepts you FOR WHO YOU ARE, is infinitely more riches than mere money can account for. We've never had tons of money, but love, empathy, friendship, a partner thru all the ups and downs... and all the torrid stuff, for the first 20 yrs... we got that.

Andria

 

[caramel]

Didn't Johnson try that, back in the 60s?

Maybe, but they surely de-normalized the idea since the Berlin Wall fall.

 

[Kent C]

Didn't Johnson try that, back in the 60s? I seem to recall something about "The War on Poverty"... but the great quote, dunno by whom, but it's true... "the poor are always with us" (paraphrase actually). And I've been one of them, on and off, for about 28 yrs -- when I met my current husband, I realized that having someone you love, who loves you and accepts you FOR WHO YOU ARE, is infinitely more riches than mere money can account for. We've never had tons of money, but love, empathy, friendship, a partner thru all the ups and downs... and all the torrid stuff, for the first 20 yrs... we got that.

Andria

LBJ's "Great Society" and "War on Poverty" - 'we will end poverty as we know it'...

Great Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the whole story read: "Losing Ground" by Charles Murray

Losing Ground: American Social Policy, 1950-1980: Charles Murray: 9780465065882: Amazon.com: Books

He was "on the front lines" in Johnson's 'war on poverty' and saw first hand the destruction that was being done. It converted him....

 

[AndriaD]

LBJ's "Great Society" and "War on Poverty" - 'we will end poverty as we know it'...

Great Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heh... I'd like to see that chart after 2007... Probably zips straight vertical!

Andria

 

[caramel]

@Kent C : US did not develop in a void and these results should not be seen as "absolute" but "relative" to other countries that enabled various policies. Give me the example of one country that had opposite policies than those followed by US and ended up better.

 

[Kent C]

Probably zips straight vertical!

nope :- )

 

[caramel]

nope :- )

Give it two more recessions with "trickle-down" assisted recoveries and we'll be there

OK, back to the thread: so the decrease of 5 years in expected lifetime is correlated with an increase in poverty, not in smoking prevalence.

 

[Kent C]

@Kent C : US did not develop in a void and these results should not be seen as "absolute" but "relative" to other countries that enabled various policies. Give me the example of one country that had opposite policies than those followed by US and ended up better.

That's the point - we adopted other socialist and 'mixed economy' measures similar to other countries.

 

[caramel]

That's the point - we adopted other socialist and 'mixed economy' measures similar to other countries.

I'd say that after '95 you were going in an opposite direction.

 

[Kent C]

Give it two more recessions with "trickle-down" assisted recoveries and we'll be there

OK, back to the thread: so the decrease of 5 years in expected lifetime is correlated with an increase in poverty, not in smoking prevalence.

Trickle down got us out of the Carter recession and interest rate debacle.

 

[AndriaD]

nope :- )

That's very interesting to me; we bought our house in 2011, after 5 yrs of increasing poverty-level americans... which was the only way we could ever afford to become homeowners -- both housing prices and interest rates at rock-bottom lows.

When I took economics in high school, and later, in some reading, I ran across the idea that no matter how awful an economy gets, there are those who will benefit from it -- guess we fit into that category. A couple weeks ago, a house in our neighborhood which is the exact mirror-image of ours (reversed floor plan) sold for more than double what we paid for ours in 2011. So in 5-10 yrs when we decide to sell and move up, we should get a NICE return.

Andria

 

[caramel]

Trickle down got us out of the Carter recession and interest rate debacle.

I always thought it's most famously associated with Reagan (and Thatcher).

Reaganomics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rothenbj]

It doesn't necessarily cost more to eat nutritious food, but it has to be available. Many low income areas are food deserts. When all that is available are 24 hour quick marts and fast food restaurants, and the nearest good sized grocery store is miles away it doesn't make for a situation that lends itself to healthy eating. It takes a good amount of extra effect to get good food in many areas. Easier to just go to the local fast food place or get frozen pizza.

I don't think many are aware of how true your post is. In Atlantic City, there are no major grocery stores. Most are mom and pop type stores with a limited selection. You have to drive out of the city to find a decent sized store.

 

[rothenbj]

That's very interesting to me; we bought our house in 2011, after 5 yrs of increasing poverty-level americans... which was the only way we could ever afford to become homeowners -- both housing prices and interest rates at rock-bottom lows.

When I took economics in high school, and later, in some reading, I ran across the idea that no matter how awful an economy gets, there are those who will benefit from it -- guess we fit into that category. A couple weeks ago, a house in our neighborhood which is the exact mirror-image of ours (reversed floor plan) sold for more than double what we paid for ours in 2011. So in 5-10 yrs when we decide to sell and move up, we should get a NICE return.

You were one of the smart, fortunate ones. Everyone I knew, that was living in a rental, I urged to buy. A few paid attention and are smiling today. Those opportunities don't come around very often. However, it's still possible it will happen again in the not to distant future if we don't see a real improvement in the economy.

As long as the tax laws don't get changed by some exuberant legislatures again, it's also the best way to build a tax free nest egg. In '97 they changed the Cap Gains laws on primary residences. You can make a $250k profit and not owe taxes. I bought a second house during the ugly days at a very reasonable price in a warmer climate (not warm, but better). I can sell my house here with no taxes, move in there and live for two years (required to establish primary residence) and sell that tax free. Then move somewhere with a better climate.

 

[rothenbj]

I read a very interesting book about 5 yrs ago, about how our digestive system had evolved, *because* we had discovered the use of fire to "cook" or otherwise process our foods (smoking meat and fish, etc) -- apparently we would need a far longer digestive tract than we already have, if we had not learned that skill -- e.g. cows, who have 4 stomachs and must still stand about chewing their cud all day. By the introduction of cooking, we furthered our own evolutionary process, by freeing ourselves from a great deal of time and energy required just to chew our food and digest it.

This mindset embraces the fact that a vegan or raw-foods diet does make us lose weight, because we must spend so much of the energy *from* the food, just to masticate and digest the food. And further, that the more processed a given food, the more our bodies will assimilate it, use it, and store it -- leading to fat when there is little activity necessary to procure it, or even energy required to digest it.

Andria

So why didn't we evolve from the dolphin were we had two brains and didn't have to sleep. It would allow for more hours of work. The only complication I could imagine would be if the one brain developed as a liberal and the other brain a conservative. The inner turmoil could only be sated by becoming lawyers or politicians.

 

[Kent C]

I always thought it's most famously associated with Reagan (and Thatcher).

Reaganomics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is. Reagan came after the disaster of Carter. It took a few years to fix but it ended in the greatest economic expansion:

The Reagan Boom - Greatest Ever - NYTimes.com

 

[Kent C]

That's very interesting to me; we bought our house in 2011, after 5 yrs of increasing poverty-level americans... which was the only way we could ever afford to become homeowners -- both housing prices and interest rates at rock-bottom lows.

When I took economics in high school, and later, in some reading, I ran across the idea that no matter how awful an economy gets, there are those who will benefit from it -- guess we fit into that category. A couple weeks ago, a house in our neighborhood which is the exact mirror-image of ours (reversed floor plan) sold for more than double what we paid for ours in 2011. So in 5-10 yrs when we decide to sell and move up, we should get a NICE return.

Andria

The housing market condition varies by locality. Most are still suppressed owing to the fact that properties held by banks would be severely downgraded by selling at the market price in some areas which would be lower by multiples of what it is valued by the banks. Those banks are tight with loan money because of it. In other areas where more selling increased prices, banks in those areas started to let go of their hold - bit by bit - in some areas. In Michigan (Detroit) and Ohio (parts of Toledo) houses are being bulldozed rather than sold at lower prices. There are open fields in Michigan where there were housing developments - medium income types.

 

[caramel]

It is. Reagan came after the disaster of Carter. It took a few years to fix but it ended in the greatest economic expansion:

The Reagan Boom - Greatest Ever - NYTimes.com

.... through increasing public debt threefold. Guess it takes some talent to do that and still have no improvements in employment rate for the 6 first years.