Questions about syringes

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NLDV

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I've got syringes from wizard labs and they're great but after a few uses, the ink on them starts rubbing off! My first question is, where can I get some better quality syringes that don't do this?

My second question.. If the syringe reads it has an given amount of liquid in it (1ml for example), does this include the amount of liquid that's in the blunt needle tip too? Or does the syringe have 1ml of liquid PLUS whatever amount is in the needle?
 

Clovery

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Put clear packing tape over the syringes and the numbers will stay on. If you draw up your liquid through a needle tip, the needle tip has air in it which then ends up in your syringe, unless you prime the tip by drawing up and then squirting it back out and then draw again. If you don't prime your tip the air bubble in your syringe will displace the liquid inside and your measurement will be accurate if you include the bubble in your measurement. If you prime the tip so there is no bubble, then you will have an excess because you will have the volume of the syringe plus the volume of the needle. If you want to be the most accurate, prime the needle, measure your liquid, then remove the needle before adding to your solution. Just be careful because when you remove the needle, the fluid inside will drip out. Hope that makes sense. Think about the mechanics of the syringe. It's a vacuum but the tip contains an air space - the air space won't fill with liquid when submerged (think about putting an empty glass straight down in a bucket of water), so this air ends up in your syringe. If you fill the tip with liquid first then you don't get an airspace, but the needle is then part of the vacuum and contains extra liquid.
 

amiller36

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I use syringes with the numbers and lines indented into the plastic for this very reason. It is a little more expensive but I have a family member who works for a medical supply company, so that helped. Every syringe I have seen includes the amount of liquid in the tip, not the needle. The syringes were not made to ALWAYS have a blunt tip needle attached so they do not include the amount of liquid they fit. If you were to find the type of blunt needle you are using (size), a quick google search could tell you how much fluid is in it (if you care). Most DIYers don't care, but I have seen instances where you have a lot of ingredients and that small amount over multiple uses is apparent at the end of the mix.

Hope this helped.
 

Porksmuggler

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I don't get all the talk of priming or removing the needle tip. If you need .01ml, draw up .02ml, then expel the .01ml between the .01 and .02 marks into your mix. Then put the excess back in the original bottle. This isn't medical dosing, it's not like your wasting or contaminating anything.
 
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Hoosier

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I get it.

One there is no need for a needle with a 1ml syringe, like the ones I use for flavoring, as the syringe fits in the bottle.

Two, if you prime, which is draw in flavoring and push out, before getting your measured dose of flavoring, the flavoring in the tip stays there. I doesn't matter that it is unmeasured because it is unused. (You can always draw air in and push the stuff in the tip out, back into the flavoring bottle or even spritz your wrist for a perfume effect if you like.)

One could do it like Porksmuggler, but when I'm pushing in, no matter if I'm going fast or slow, I like to go all the way. It just feels better to me. It may be silly, but I've always been like that and I'm too old to change now.
 

Chornbro

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Couldnt I just use the syring lines/numbers and the actual meniscus of the liquid flavoring to measure? For example, if I need .5ml... suck exactly 1ml of liquid into the syringe (i.e., until the liquid level [not the plunger level] reads 1ml) ... and then push out until the liquid line reads exactly .5ml??

Also, how do you guys feel about these cheapie plastic bulb-end pipettes? I have some in 3ml and 1ml. How accurate are they? I did a quick test to determine drops/ml... and I'm getting about 37 drops per ml... yet everyone else claims 20-25. What gives? It seemed like a great way to determine small percentages of a ml. For example, if 1ml = 37 drops, then I can get .13ml with ~5 drops
 
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Porksmuggler

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One could do it like Porksmuggler, but when I'm pushing in, no matter if I'm going fast or slow, I like to go all the way. It just feels better to me.

That doesn't sound dirty at all...I do like the idea of the wrist spritz method though, or maybe just have a bottle of water to flavor and drink.

I do 3ml testers, VG, and I'm cheap and only buy 14ga blunt needles. So I like the differential method, to be as exact as possible without fussing with the needle or priming. It's lazy and accurate, c-c-c-combo.
 

Chornbro

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That doesn't sound dirty at all...I do like the idea of the wrist spritz method though, or maybe just have a bottle of water to flavor and drink.

I do 3ml testers, VG, and I'm cheap and only buy 14ga blunt needles. So I like the differential method, to be as exact as possible without fussing with the needle or priming. It's lazy and accurate, c-c-c-combo.

By differential method you mean what I described above? If you need 1ml... pull in 2ml, using the liquid line.. then push out down to 1ml using the same liquid line? Seems like a better idea... then you can clean your syringes more easily... because a fully depressed plunger should leave you with an empty syringe.

Im planning to do 3ml testers as well, so these details are important to me
 

Porksmuggler

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Couldnt I just use the syring lines/numbers and the actual meniscus of the liquid flavoring to measure? For example, if I need .5ml... suck exactly 1ml of liquid into the syringe (i.e., until the liquid level [not the plunger level] reads 1ml) ... and then push out until the liquid line reads exactly .5ml??

Also, how do you guys feel about these cheapie plastic bulb-end pipettes? I have some in 3ml and 1ml. How accurate are they? I did a quick test to determine drops/ml... and I'm getting about 37 drops per ml... yet everyone else claims 20-25. What gives? It seemed like a great way to determine small percentages of a ml. For example, if 1ml = 37 drops, then I can get .13ml with ~5 drops

For the first part, that's what I was recommending, use the liquid level, need .3ml then draw up .4ml and expel to the .1ml mark, etc.

Number of drops is a pain, because to be accurate, you need to measure and count drops for each solution individually, as the number of drops depends on each liquid, flavoring, PG, VG, etc.
 

Chornbro

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For the first part, that's what I was recommending, use the liquid level, need .3ml then draw up .4ml and expel to the .1ml mark, etc.

Number of drops is a pain, because to be accurate, you need to measure and count drops for each solution individually, as the number of drops depends on each liquid, flavoring, PG, VG, etc.

So its not safe to assume that all liquids will be the same in terms of drops per ml... even with the same syringe/pipette? Thats awful, awful news... especially with some of these flavors that I got that are recommended at 1-5%
 

Porksmuggler

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So its not safe to assume that all liquids will be the same in terms of drops per ml... even with the same syringe/pipette? Thats awful, awful news... especially with some of these flavors that I got that are recommended at 1-5%

Without getting into viscosity, surface tension, etc., no they're not the same in terms of drops. For most flavorings probably not a big deal, but if you're trying to tweak small 3ml batches and using tobacco extracts, etc. then getting drops wrong is not too tasty (especially when you try to scale it up later).
 

Hoosier

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Couldnt I just use the syring lines/numbers and the actual meniscus of the liquid flavoring to measure? For example, if I need .5ml... suck exactly 1ml of liquid into the syringe (i.e., until the liquid level [not the plunger level] reads 1ml) ... and then push out until the liquid line reads exactly .5ml??

Right, you could, but the air would force out the bit in the tip and/or needle, unless you have the control to go from one line to the next without pushing air into the tip. (My bottles are too short and the table top is too far away for this to work for me.) Which has some folks worried about what they are not measuring and the reason for the post.
Or you could use the bottom of the plunger that is covered in liquid and measure from there. Kinda' like using the meniscus but without pushing out the unmeasured part.

Really, this bit isn't a big deal for most things anyway. It only comes into play when you are already doing small doses. If the recipe works great with 1/50th of a ml of some unicorn tears, then the bit in the tip will throw it off. (And I'm not sure most vapers could tell the difference in 1/50th or 1/25th, but I'm picky and would notice and would rail against the forces that be until my world was righted again.)

Also, how do you guys feel about these cheapie plastic bulb-end pipettes? I have some in 3ml and 1ml. How accurate are they? I did a quick test to determine drops/ml... and I'm getting about 37 drops per ml... yet everyone else claims 20-25. What gives? It seemed like a great way to determine small percentages of a ml. For example, if 1ml = 37 drops, then I can get .13ml with ~5 drops
It's like a standard sized window. There isn't one. People keep thinking such a thing exists, so the 20 drops per ml was born. Drop size varies with the viscosity of the liquid, the temperate of the liquid, the dropper and the droppee. The calculator I use can adjust the drops/ml, and I even have one that the drops/ml for each flavoring can be adjusted independently. I don't use that as my syringes for flavoring are marked every 1/50th of a ml and I don't have a dropper that is that precise. I have a few cheapie bulb pipettes that are amazingly precise in that every flavoring I measured came out to average 31 drops per ml. I mixed for quite awhile measuring flavoring with those and had no issues with repeatability. (I marked the measured average of drops/ml on each pipette with a sharpie as I had some that varied off the 1/31.)

And you could always do it the DaMulta or Darkhood way. Just plop some stuff in until it looks or smells right and go. (DaMulta's Sweet Tart recipe is a winner BTW. There is a thread around here somewhere where I reverse engineered it and assigned %'s and stuff for folks like me who are way too picky to go the DaMulta way.) But DaMulta, and later Darkhood, was right, you don't have to worry about it if you don't want to. Neither of them are concerned with getting the exact same results every time and it works for them. I'm different, but it doesn't make them wrong, just different.

And this was all started by the simple question of, "... does this include the amount of liquid that's in the blunt needle tip too?"

Ah, the simple questions are always the most interesting!
 

ratchet62

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So its not safe to assume that all liquids will be the same in terms of drops per ml... even with the same syringe/pipette? Thats awful, awful news... especially with some of these flavors that I got that are recommended at 1-5%

I use a 1 ml syringe and 16 ga blunt needle for all my small volume measures. I do not needle prime, but I do use the differential method. This gives me the best control and accuracy.

Here is my experience with drops. I tested my PG, VG, and nic base (PG) I also tested the 12 flavorings I ordered. My flavors are mainly PG based, but some have VG and alcohol in them.

Drops/ml:
PG=68
VG=20
NIC=68
Flavorings ran from 66 to 80 drops/ml.
Distilled Water, PGA, and Vodka = 70
Apple cider vinegar = 22 ( I think I need to test this again).

So really, drops only work if you measure everything using the same setup.


Ratchet62 from my Nexus 7
 

Chornbro

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I use a 1 ml syringe and 16 ga blunt needle for all my small volume measures. I do not needle prime, but I do use the differential method. This gives me the best control and accuracy.

Here is my experience with drops. I tested my PG, VG, and nic base (PG) I also tested the 12 flavorings I ordered. My flavors are mainly PG based, but some have VG and alcohol in them.

Drops/ml:
PG=68
VG=20
NIC=68
Flavorings ran from 66 to 80 drops/ml.
Distilled Water, PGA, and Vodka = 70
Apple cider vinegar = 22 ( I think I need to test this again).

So really, drops only work if you measure everything using the same setup.


Ratchet62 from my Nexus 7

Great info. Thanks for the response! Glad I asked rather than just assuming. Cant believe that some of the differences are so great! We're talking 3x more drops/ml!

I think I have a 1ml syringe with the 1/50th increments... but how am I supposed to get, say, 1/50th of a ml of VG if 20 drops = 1 ml? Fortunately, I'll only need to be really precise with the flavorings and nic... both of which are PG and seem to yield more drops per ml. Where there's a will there's a way. I'm a headstrong and STUBBORN dude. I'll figure it out one way or another : P
 

ratchet62

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My 1 ml syringes have major graduations of 0.1 ml and minor graduations of .01 ml.

I wouldn't worry about micro volumes on your 3 base components, as you are usually using them at larger volumes. Flavorings can be another matter.

For some of my mixes, when doing small test batches, I may only use 1% of a flavor. This may be just 1 or 2 drops. But my juice calculator gives me both ml and drops, so I can choose the measurement method that is easiest or most accurate.

I measure everything with syringes. I have 1,3,5,10, and 20 ml syringes. For small volumes, I use the 1 ml. Anything between 2 and 4 ml gets the 3 ml syringe. I use the syringe that is smaller than the desired volume for improved accuracy. Sure, I have to measure twice, but the smaller resolution is better.

Ratchet62 from my Nexus 7
 
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