Number of wraps for resistance

[Punk In Drublic]

As a matter of fact it's already proven itself wrong, basically (except of course if you don't already know the very basics about coil building, as that also includes knowledge of the fact Kanthal A1 does heat up slowest, watt for watt). All you need to do to figure this one out is look at the heat capacity number that it reports for Kanthal A1, and then compare that to the heat capacity number that it reports for either Nichrome 80 or SS316L, i.e. without even changing any of the other parameters it just obviously goofs, right off the bat.

Again – if Steam is incorrect with its Heat Capacity calculation as it is referred to in mass, then provide the correct calculation to prove that it is wrong. Just subjectively saying that it is wrong without objective data does not mean it is incorrect. And given the application does not give you the data you are looking for, as in Heat Capacity per volume, which again you have not provided any calculations, also does not make it wrong. Steam Does not give me the resistance of the atomizer that I am using – I feel this can be an important figure, but that does not mean the application is wrong?

I trust the Heat Capacity calculation within Steam as it is referred to in mass is correct. But I also understand there are other factors at play here. Resistance being one of them. Now I will admit I am no expert in metallurgy, but would Thermal resistance not be a contributing factor? And if so, just because the application is void of this reading also does not make it incorrect.

Without providing objective data to prove your claims of Steam preforming incorrect calculations means that your opinion is nothing more than subjective. A subjective opinion in this particular example has no grounds to be correct.

 

[dripster]

Again – if Steam is incorrect with its Heat Capacity calculation as it is referred to in mass, then provide the correct calculation to prove that it is wrong. Just subjectively saying that it is wrong without objective data does not mean it is incorrect. And given the application does not give you the data you are looking for, as in Heat Capacity per volume, which again you have not provided any calculations, also does not make it wrong. Steam Does not give me the resistance of the atomizer that I am using – I feel this can be an important figure, but that does not mean the application is wrong?

I trust the Heat Capacity calculation within Steam as it is referred to in mass is correct. But I also understand there are other factors at play here. Resistance being one of them. Now I will admit I am no expert in metallurgy, but would Thermal resistance not be a contributing factor? And if so, just because the application is void of this reading also does not make it incorrect.

Without providing objective data to prove your claims of Steam preforming incorrect calculations means that your opinion is nothing more than subjective. A subjective opinion in this particular example has no grounds to be correct.

I'm not subjectively saying it is wrong. Instead, I'm pointing out the simple fact anyone familiar with coil building objectively knows from first hand experience that it's wrong. As for the calculations, I already tried to explain them a few times. The caclulations themselves appear to be correctly implemented in Steam as far as I can tell, yet, despite this, the numbers don't reflect what happens in the real world. This indicates there must be an error in the data somewhere, or else everyone familiar with coil building must be delusional. Resistance can't be a factor in this instance, as we're talking about how fast a given number of watts will cause the coil temperature to go up, and, it is a regulated mod's job to keep the watts constant regardless of the resistance. Thermal resistance tells us how fast the heat is transferred from a hotter area in the metal to a cooler area in the metal via thermal conductance, i.e. how fast the heat energy gets spread out through the inside of the metal.

Steam has the potential to be great IMO. But in its current form it's just been a pure waste of my time because yeah... the coil resistance that it calculates is typically nowhere nearly accurate either so why still bother.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I'm not subjectively saying it is wrong. Instead, I'm pointing out the simple fact anyone familiar with coil building objectively knows from first hand experience that it's wrong. As for the calculations, I already tried to explain them a few times. The caclulations themselves appear to be correctly implemented in Steam as far as I can tell, yet, despite this, the numbers don't reflect what happens in the real world. This indicates there must be an error in the data somewhere, or else everyone familiar with coil building must be delusional. Resistance can't be a factor in this instance, as we're talking about how fast a given number of watts will cause the coil temperature to go up, and, it is a regulated mod's job to keep the watts constant regardless of the resistance. Thermal resistance tells us how fast the heat is transferred from a hotter area in the metal to a cooler area in the metal via thermal conductance, i.e. how fast the heat energy gets spread out through the inside of the metal.

Steam has the potential to be great IMO. But in its current form it's just been a pure waste of my time because yeah... the coil resistance that it calculates is typically nowhere nearly accurate either so why still bother.

And where is that objective data? The formula you are looking for is a measurement in time. To achieve that measurement one needs to calculate the amount of energy required to produce a certain change in temperature then divide that by power.

Energy required (q), where m = mass, c = Specific Heat Capacity and t = Change in Temp

q = m*c*t

Time in seconds (s), q = above result, p = power

s = q/p

This is obviously not the equation Steam uses for it Heat Capacity but the above result may surprise. Give it a try.

As for resistance, it is true that in a regulated mod the power output (watts) can remain the same, however, more current is applied with a lower resistance coil in order to achieve that same power. Simple ohms law. Now how does this affect the time it takes to heat a coil?

As for your issues with Steam not giving you the correct resistance? How did you come to this conclusion? Did your metal properties match that in Steam? There are different grades of the same metal to which they will have different resistive properties. Will admit that I do not achieve what Steam calculates, but so far with the metal I have used the margin has been minute as measured through many different tools, mod, ohm meter, multimeter etc. I would say Steam is damn close with its calculations.

As I asked earlier, is Steam incorrect with its calculations or is it just not giving you the answer you are looking for. The later means the application is limited (for your needs), which I will not dispute - but that does not mean it is incorrect. If you feel Steam is calculating incorrectly, then pony up with the correct calculations and prove it wrong. Your explanations is not proof, it is just a subjective opinion.

 

[Asbestos4004]

I've never been more grateful that I just couldn't care less about the numbers. I build what what works for me... Steam whatever might say it sucks....but my builds don't push the limits of my batteries and they provide exactly the flavor I want. So.....I win .

 

[dripster]

And where is that objective data? The formula you are looking for is a measurement in time. To achieve that measurement one needs to calculate the amount of energy required to produce a certain change in temperature then divide that by power.

Energy required (q), where m = mass, c = Specific Heat Capacity and t = Change in Temp

q = m*c*t

Time in seconds (s), q = above result, p = power

s = q/p

This is obviously not the equation Steam uses for it Heat Capacity but the above result may surprise. Give it a try.

As for resistance, it is true that in a regulated mod the power output (watts) can remain the same, however, more current is applied with a lower resistance coil in order to achieve that same power. Simple ohms law. Now how does this affect the time it takes to heat a coil?

As for your issues with Steam not giving you the correct resistance? How did you come to this conclusion? Did your metal properties match that in Steam? There are different grades of the same metal to which they will have different resistive properties. Will admit that I do not achieve what Steam calculates, but so far with the metal I have used the margin has been minute as measured through many different tools, mod, ohm meter, multimeter etc. I would say Steam is damn close with its calculations.

As I asked earlier, is Steam incorrect with its calculations or is it just not giving you the answer you are looking for. The later means the application is limited (for your needs), which I will not dispute - but that does not mean it is incorrect. If you feel Steam is calculating incorrectly, then pony up with the correct calculations and prove it wrong. Your explanations is not proof, it is just a subjective opinion.

The fact a Kanthal A1 coil heats up slower than a Nichrome 80 coil (using the exact same wattage on a regulated mod the power output of which is reasonably accurate enough to compare, wire gauge, number of wraps, wrap spacing, inner diameter, and leg length) has been long established. And no, none of this is my subjective opinion, as the fact that the coil resistance calculated by Steam very often does not accurately reflect what you get in the real world is fairly well-known among people who have tried it so in answer to your question of how people came to this conclusion, it is by building real coils and seeing it with their own eyes just like I already explained it a few times of course.

 

[MyMagicMist]

And no, none of this is my subjective opinion, as the fact that the coil resistance calculated by Steam very often does not accurately reflect what you get in the real world is fairly well-known among people who have tried it so in answer to your question of how people came to this conclusion, it is by building real coils and seeing it with their own eyes just like I already explained it a few times of course.

Apologies for not being here. Am now & say thank you for putting that to words. I know from building that depending on spacing, wire material, inner diameter that I can wrap 5 or 7 wraps to remain a good range. For myself running a single cell 18650 mech mod or Pico Squeeze that falls between 0.30 to 0.5 ohm. Some days it might depend on how full of urine I am too.

Yes, that might appear subjective at first blush. Knowing that I can build to that specification though comes from experiencing it happen enough times. Steam Engine is simply a basic guide for folks I think, and it seems such is the case with seeing this expressed here. Guides are alright and can get you there but sometimes once you're there you might want to look out the window your guide hurriedly passes by with the tour group.

I am not disparaging empirical data and evidence gained objectively. Nor am I saying that anecdotal evidence needs given more faith over the objective. Think what I'm saying is each person needs to engage that gray matter between their ears & figure out a means to weigh both, find their own path. We all have to realize there is nothing 100% safe, matter of fact I would hazard to say anything someone found that billed itself as being pure 100% is likely only genuinely 99.53 % or even 98% pure 100%. Life is not absolutely black and white but various shades of the rainbow including hues of grey/gray/gr eh.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I am by no means stating that what Steam gives for an answer should be taken as gospel - nor am I insinuating that everyone should be using this application. I am open to the fact that an application, in this instance, cannot possibly cater to every single individual. That is just preposterous to think otherwise. We all have our own ways on building a coil and those methods cannot be debated - and within this discussion they are not being debated (at least not from my end). What is being debated is someone’s claims that Steam is performing incorrect calculations with no proof to backup those claims.

@dripster – I am not debating that a N80 coil heats up faster than one made of Kanthal of the same dimension. But one cannot look at the Heat Capacity alone and come to that conclusion. N80 does have a lower Specific Heat Capacity than Kanthal but has a higher mass for the same given dimensions. If all else was equal, N80 would actually be slower at heating up than the same dimension Kanthal as demonstrated in the above equations. But all else is not equal – resistance plays a part for lower resistance for the same applied power requires more current.

So is the Heat Capacity within Steam used to compare different metals or used to compare different dimensions of the same metal? Personally I think it is better suited for the latter for it is not taking other parameters into account. The link that I provided earlier that explains Heat Flux and Capacity gives an example of Heat Capacity with the same metal but of different dimensions. So again, is the Heat Capacity within Steam calculated incorrectly or just not giving you the answer you are looking for? The latter does not mean the application is broken or incorrect, just means it is limited for how you wish to use it.

In closing I believe Steam is accurate in its calculations given the metal properties it has on file. It does not account for all different grades of the same metal unless we enter those properties manually. Can Steam’s model be used to compare to our real-life experiences? Absolutely! But one must understand that there will be variations with what we use and what Steam uses, therefore the outcome could be vastly different. This does not mean Steam is incorrect – just means we were unable to match its model. If this is of no value to an individual, then don’t use the application.

 

[dripster]

I am by no means stating that what Steam gives for an answer should be taken as gospel - nor am I insinuating that everyone should be using this application. I am open to the fact that an application, in this instance, cannot possibly cater to every single individual. That is just preposterous to think otherwise. We all have our own ways on building a coil and those methods cannot be debated - and within this discussion they are not being debated (at least not from my end). What is being debated is someone’s claims that Steam is performing incorrect calculations with no proof to backup those claims.

@dripster – I am not debating that a N80 coil heats up faster than one made of Kanthal of the same dimension. But one cannot look at the Heat Capacity alone and come to that conclusion. N80 does have a lower Specific Heat Capacity than Kanthal but has a higher mass for the same given dimensions. If all else was equal, N80 would actually be slower at heating up than the same dimension Kanthal as demonstrated in the above equations. But all else is not equal – resistance plays a part for lower resistance for the same applied power requires more current.

So is the Heat Capacity within Steam used to compare different metals or used to compare different dimensions of the same metal? Personally I think it is better suited for the latter for it is not taking other parameters into account. The link that I provided earlier that explains Heat Flux and Capacity gives an example of Heat Capacity with the same metal but of different dimensions. So again, is the Heat Capacity within Steam calculated incorrectly or just not giving you the answer you are looking for? The latter does not mean the application is broken or incorrect, just means it is limited for how you wish to use it.

In closing I believe Steam is accurate in its calculations given the metal properties it has on file. It does not account for all different grades of the same metal unless we enter those properties manually. Can Steam’s model be used to compare to our real-life experiences? Absolutely! But one must understand that there will be variations with what we use and what Steam uses, therefore the outcome could be vastly different. This does not mean Steam is incorrect – just means we were unable to match its model. If this is of no value to an individual, then don’t use the application.

I just wanted to let you know you kept bringing up the mass with every reply you wrote, so this time I decided to no longer waste any of my time reading your replies.

 

[Susaz]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I'm not much the wiser at the moment though.



I've absolutely no idea what's going on. I just unwrapped those coils and made them 5.5 wraps and according to the calculators, it should be 0.22 ohms but it's reading 0.34 ohms.

Leg lenght and coil diameter makes that change

 

[Punk In Drublic]

I just wanted to let you know you kept bringing up the mass with every reply you wrote, so this time I decided to no longer waste any of my time reading your replies.

I don’t understand the objective of this reply especially considering the conversation seemed like it ended nearly 2 weeks ago. But I guess if you can’t hold a civil conversation where everyone may learn something, without condescending remarks, then this would be the best action. Was nice chatting with you!