Naturally extracted tobacco (NET) flavours

[eric5037]

VG is a little bit more polar than PG. VG has two -OH groups and two carbon atoms, PG also has two -OH groups but three carbon atoms.
Ethanol is even less polar than PG, it has one -OH group and two carbon atoms. (Water is more polar than all of them).
So in theory sugars - that are pretty polar - should have lower solubility in PG than in VG (and even less in ethanol) and therefore PG should extract less sugar from tobacco than VG.
However, I don't know if the difference in solubility between PG and VG is large enough for us to make a difference.
A mixture (eg 50/50) PG and ethanol in theory should extract even less sugars.

For my next tests I will go for a pure ethanol extraction ( as suggested by Bunnykiller and Str8vision) and a 50/50 PG/ethanol mixture.
Will take a couple of weeks to find out how it works though as I will steep (thanks Bunnykiller and Str8vision for the clarification on terms! ) at room temeprature.

Str8vision was so kind to post his experience with various extractions in this thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...est-extraction-method-minimise-coil-gunk.html
It's definitely worth a read!

yes, it is what i thought according to my feelings. thank you for putting it in more technical terms. i appreciate that as you're a chemist, you can explain things in a more scientific and chemical way.

i'll be waiting for the results of your experiments and in the meantime i will look into those links you gave me.

you know what? we'll win those battles, whatever it takes!

 

[funkymeatball]

thank you for you reply and link. i will look into it!

i've just watched my VG and i've seen that it expired 2 years ago. great! so i must go for a new one to see and compare the level of sugar in both. the fact is that my actual expired VG has really a lot of sugar and i don't know if it's due to its expiration or not. i bought it 2-3 years ago in a pharmacy so it is USP quality... but expired. so i have to do somethinh here, no doubt !! you gave me the clue, thanks for that!

supposing VG doesn't have any sugar, it shouldn't matter if the sugar extraction process is hard to do because we shouldn't have to do it, right?

what i'm pretty sure of, is that tobacco contains sugar in its additives (cocoa, coconut oil...) but i'm not sure it contains sugar in its natural composition. it's logical to think that if we macerate "free additive tobacco", we will have at least less sugar. that's a beginning!!

so, if VG doesn't have any sugar, i learnt 2 things today:
1- i have to buy a new bottle of GV, hoping it won't have any sugar
2- i have to macerate "free additive tobacco" (i thought my "fleur de pays, nº2" had to additives and it has 3%)
TABAC à ROULER: Pourcentage d

i will have a look into ethanol extraction too and it seems clear to me that sugar in the enemy of my coils.

I can assure you that VG in USP quality does not contain any sugars. ;-)
Also even if VG is expired I personally would not hesitate to use it. In Pharma even sodium chloride has an expiration date although it will be stable for millions of years.
See http://www.romil.com/Shelf_Life_SAR.pdf
That's part of the game in pharma quality management.
The supplier of your VG has tested the stability of your VG for let's say 2 years after filling.
See e.g. http://www.pgchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Shelf-Life-2012-Website.pdf
He did not do any stability tests after a storage longer than two years. Therefore he cannot guarantee that the VG is stable for more than two years. This however does not necessarily mean that VG is not stable for longer than two years.
As noted in the pdf above I would mainly be worried that the VG would become diluted with water it takes up from the air, as VG is hygroscopic.
However, this is just a personal opinion and I neither can guarantee that your VG has not degraded ;-)

Regarding sugars in tobacco: I don't know whether sugars are added to tobacco. If you go for "free additive tobacco" then there shouldn't be any sugar added.
But: tobacoo itself contains sugars. Every organism has them. In addition, during tobacco fermentation enzymes degrade polysaccharides that at least partially are degraded to sugars.

 

[eric5037]

I can assure you that VG in USP quality does not contain any sugars. ;-)
Also even if VG is expired I personally would not hesitate to use it. In Pharma even sodium chloride has an expiration date although it will be stable for millions of years.
See http://www.romil.com/Shelf_Life_SAR.pdf
That's part of the game in pharma quality management.
The supplier of your VG has tested the stability of your VG for let's say 2 years after filling.
See e.g. http://www.pgchemicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Shelf-Life-2012-Website.pdf
He did not do any stability tests after a storage longer than two years. Therefore he cannot guarantee that the VG is stable for more than two years. This however does not necessarily mean that VG is not stable for longer than two years.
As noted in the pdf above I would mainly be worried that the VG would become diluted with water it takes up from the air, as VG is hygroscopic.
However, this is just a personal opinion and I neither can guarantee that your VG has not degraded ;-)

Regarding sugars in tobacco: I don't know whether sugars are added to tobacco. If you go for "free additive tobacco" then there shouldn't be any sugar added.
But: tobacoo itself contains sugars. Every organism has them. In addition, during tobacco fermentation enzymes degrade polysaccharides that at least partially are degraded to sugars.

thanks a lot for your answer. greatly appreciated!!

i will buy some new VG of the same brand to compare what's comparable. when i lick it, it tastes really really sweet to me. too much i would say so i want to know if it's degraded.

so, the fact is the following: normally, VG is sugarless but taste sweet. is that correct to you?

what could we do to avoid that? because when i make a recipe with GV, it's too sweet and i use full PG, it leaks from my lemo airholes.

something interesting for you (and for me as i am looking into):
http://www.leafonly.com/

i'm thinking about using tobacco leaves instead of rolling tobacco in my macerated juices. it seems to be more natural, additives free and 3 times cheaper. it has all the advantages we'd dream of. what do you thnk about it?

 

[funkymeatball]

thanks a lot for your answer. greatly appreciated!!

i will buy some new VG of the same brand to compare what's comparable. when i lick it, it tastes really really sweet to me. too much i would say so i want to know if it's degraded.

so, the fact is the following: normally, VG is sugarless but taste sweet. is that correct to you?

what could we do to avoid that? because when i make a recipe with GV, it's too sweet and i use full PG, it leaks from my lemo airholes.

something interesting for you (and for me as i am looking into):
http://www.leafonly.com/

i'm thinking about using tobacco leaves instead of rolling tobacco in my macerated juices. it seems to be more natural, additives free and 3 times cheaper. it has all the advantages we'd dream of. what do you thnk about it?

Yes, VG is sugarless but tastes sweet. After two weeks of vaping PG/VG didn't taste sweet anymore for me though.

Don't know how to avoid VG, sorry.

Thanks for the link!
We have very strict laws regarding import of tobacco here in Austria. So unfortunately I would be very risky to order tobacco leaves from US. :-( They might be cought at the customs.
Nevertheless, I thin it's a good idea to order the leaves. Maybe you can even get some organic tobacoo ;-)

 

[eric5037]

Yes, VG is sugarless but tastes sweet. After two weeks of vaping PG/VG didn't taste sweet anymore for me though.

Don't know how to avoid VG, sorry.

Thanks for the link!
We have very strict laws regarding import of tobacco here in Austria. So unfortunately I would be very risky to order tobacco leaves from US. :-( They might be cought at the customs.
Nevertheless, I thin it's a good idea to order the leaves. Maybe you can even get some organic tobacoo ;-)

no big deal !

look at this:
http://www.naturtabakblatt.com/
http://www.naturtabakblatt.com/epag...ObjectPath=/Shops/63546845/Categories/Versand

they send to austria but i think there is a little risk but i'm not sure. we are european, right?

Tabakanbau-Forum.de :: - getrocknete Tabakbltter kaufen

if you want you can!

here in spain, i can do whatever i want (paypal, cash on delivery and so on) and i will, oh, yes, i will.

 

[funkymeatball]

no big deal !

look at this:
http://www.naturtabakblatt.com/
http://www.naturtabakblatt.com/epag...ObjectPath=/Shops/63546845/Categories/Versand

they send to austria but i think there is a little risk but i'm not sure. we are european, right?

Tabakanbau-Forum.de :: - getrocknete Tabakbltter kaufen

if you want you can!

here in spain, i can do whatever i want (paypal, cash on delivery and so on) and i will, oh, yes, i will.

Thanks for the links!
As far as I understand if you buy tobacco leaves for decoration purposes it's OK in Germany. Will have to check the situation here in Austria.
We have a "Tabakmonopol" here in Austria since 1784

If you find a source for organic tobacco please let me know.
I'm somehow hesitant buying tobacco that is sold for decoration purposes, Don't know if the same regulations apply regarding the usage of e.g. pesticides.
I know that this most likely is paranoid as this tobacoo was grown for smoking anyway....;-)

 

[eric5037]

Thanks for the links!
As far as I understand if you buy tobacco leaves for decoration purposes it's OK in Germany. Will have to check the situation here in Austria.
We have a "Tabakmonopol" here in Austria since 1784

If you find a source for organic tobacco please let me know.
I'm somehow hesitant buying tobacco that is sold for decoration purposes, Don't know if the same regulations apply regarding the usage of e.g. pesticides.
I know that this most likely is paranoid as this tobacoo was grown for smoking anyway....;-)

you're very welcome!

it's a matter of taxes. so, let's say you're redecorating your appartment. i don't know about pesticides but what i am sure of is that it's surely much better than rolling tobacco (i've real that the only additives free rolling tobacco is "natural american spirit"). i ithink you should send the shop an email and if they're honest, you'll know about it.

yesterday, on the french ecig forum, a cigmate just made an order in the USA just because he wanted it no matter what it cost. i'm waiting for his review but i'll have to wait weeks until he receive it and macerate it but it's great. i'll do the same here in spain when i can. i will smoke it too as i keep smoking 6 cigs a day. may be you should take the risk!

logic tells me that rolling tobacco must have additives because if not tobacco will go bad. it must be prepared to be sold, tobacco leaves must not have this problem, so it will always be better.

if i find organic tobacco, i tell you.

 

[funkymeatball]

you're very welcome!

it's a matter of taxes. so, let's say you're redecorating your appartment. i don't know about pesticides but what i am sure of is that it's surely much better than rolling tobacco (i've real that the only additives free rolling tobacco is "natural american spirit"). i ithink you should send the shop an email and if they're honest, you'll know about it.

yesterday, on the french ecig forum, a cigmate just made an order in the USA just because he wanted it no matter what it cost. i'm waiting for his review but i'll have to wait weeks until he receive it and macerate it but it's great. i'll do the same here in spain when i can. i will smoke it too as i keep smoking 6 cigs a day. may be you should take the risk!

logic tells me that rolling tobacco must have additives because if not tobacco will go bad. it must be prepared to be sold, tobacco leaves must not have this problem, so it will always be better.

if i find organic tobacco, i tell you.

I will send them an email, why not.
I'm just not sure whether they will risk to give me an answer on the question on the usage of pesticides as they officially sell the tobacco for decoration puposes. ;-)

I know it's kind of paranoid that I'm trying to find organic tobaccos for NETs considering that for 20 years I inhaled several hundred of toxic substances each day. ;-)

 

[eric5037]

I will send them an email, why not.
I'm just not sure whether they will risk to give me an answer on the question on the usage of pesticides as they officially sell the tobacco for decoration puposes. ;-)

I know it's kind of paranoid that I'm trying to find organic tobaccos for NETs considering that for 20 years I inhaled several hundred of toxic substances each day. ;-)

well, you just want to do the best or the least worst for your health, that's understandable. i do the same here after 33 years smoking.

decoration can be an alibi to be able to sell tobacco leaves. if you don't send an email, you'll never know.

you asked me about "organic tobacco". well, you know what: the simplest way to find one in a rolling tobacco is using "natural american spirit", i've been doing some research on the internet and it seems to be it, it seems to be the solution or at least, one of them. that way, you don't even have to complicate yourself looking for tobacco leaves anymore.

in my case, i will do both as i like to get to the bottom of things but you're not obliged to do the same. you should do some research on this "natural american tobacco". it seems that those kinds of tobacco ("pueblo" too but it could have some % of additives) don't clog the coils as HOL guevara, which is a professional NET do.

do yourself a favor, do some research and i'm almost sure that you'll see that "natural american spirit" is the simplest way to go!

 

[Sicrano]

Hi, I'm a fan of some NET flavours, like Trabuco Vapors. They all destroy coils very fast!

 

[funkymeatball]

well, you just want to do the best or the least worst for your health, that's understandable. i do the same here after 33 years smoking.

decoration can be an alibi to be able to sell tobacco leaves. if you don't send an email, you'll never know.

you asked me about "organic tobacco". well, you know what: the simplest way to find one in a rolling tobacco is using "natural american spirit", i've been doing some research on the internet and it seems to be it, it seems to be the solution or at least, one of them. that way, you don't even have to complicate yourself looking for tobacco leaves anymore.

in my case, i will do both as i like to get to the bottom of things but you're not obliged to do the same. you should do some research on this "natural american tobacco". it seems that those kinds of tobacco ("pueblo" too but it could have some % of additives) don't clog the coils as HOL guevara, which is a professional NET do.

do yourself a favor, do some research and i'm almost sure that you'll see that "natural american spirit" is the simplest way to go!

I already did sone research on organic tobacco
American Spirit is even available as "organic blend", as is Yuma tobacco.
it just appears that both are not available in Austria and ordering via the internet isn't an easy task as it is not allowed in Austria .
This is the reason why I'm searching for organic tobacoo alternatives.

 

[eric5037]

I already did sone research on organic tobacco
American Spirit is even available as "organic blend", as is Yuma tobacco.
it just appears that both are not available in Austria and ordering via the internet isn't an easy task as it is not allowed in Austria .
This is the reason why I'm searching for organic tobacoo alternatives.

holly crap? sorry but what kind of free country is that? or: is there a free country in the free world? sorry again but it makes me nervous to here that. if you want to kill yourself, smoking good crappy tobacco, big state is always here to make its death monopol work.

are you even able to buy nicotine eliquid?

 

[TaketheRedPill]

since VG and PG are sugar-alcohols, won't they always have 'sugar' ?

 

[funkymeatball]

holly crap? sorry but what kind of free country is that? or: is there a free country in the free world? sorry again but it makes me nervous to here that. if you want to kill yourself, smoking good crappy tobacco, big state is always here to make its death monopol work.

are you even able to buy nicotine eliquid?

Yep, that's the way it is here. Austrian law does everything to prevent our minister of finances from loosing tobacco tax (>57%).
Which is the reason why starting with october this year liquids (even those without micotine!) can only be bought in tobacco shops.
It's of course a very wise decision to force ex-smokers to buy their liquids in tobacoo stores considering that at least the tobacoo shops I know are usually full of cigarette smoke.
Right now it is not clear (well at least not to me) whether there will be tobacco tax on liquids.....
Currently, we can buy liquids via internet or off-line in various shops in Austria.
Notably, the draft law controlling the sale of liquids valid with october was done by the ministry of finances and not by the ministry of health, although of course it was filed to save the health of our youth ;-)

 

[funkymeatball]

VG is a little bit more polar than PG. VG has two -OH groups and two carbon atoms, PG also has two -OH groups but three carbon atoms.
Ethanol is even less polar than PG, it has one -OH group and two carbon atoms. (Water is more polar than all of them).
So in theory sugars - that are pretty polar - should have lower solubility in PG than in VG (and even less in ethanol) and therefore PG should extract less sugar from tobacco than VG.
However, I don't know if the difference in solubility between PG and VG is large enough for us to make a difference.
A mixture (eg 50/50) PG and ethanol in theory should extract even less sugars.

For my next tests I will go for a pure ethanol extraction ( as suggested by Bunnykiller and Str8vision) and a 50/50 PG/ethanol mixture.
Will take a couple of weeks to find out how it works though as I will steep (thanks Bunnykiller and Str8vision for the clarification on terms! ) at room temeprature.

Str8vision was so kind to post his experience with various extractions in this thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...est-extraction-method-minimise-coil-gunk.html
It's definitely worth a read!

Sorry, obviously I was already too tired when writing this post.
VG has NOT two -OH groups but three and also NOT two carbon atoms but three.
Still, VG is a bit more polar than PG.

 

[funkymeatball]

since VG and PG are sugar-alcohols, won't they always have 'sugar' ?

They are just called "sugar aclohols".
See Sugar alcohol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PG per definition actually is not a sugar alcohol although it looks very similar to VG as it does not fit the formula HOCH2(CHOH)nCH2OH.

 

[eric5037]

Yep, that's the way it is here. Austrian law does everything to prevent our minister of finances from loosing tobacco tax (>57%).
Which is the reason why starting with october this year liquids (even those without micotine!) can only be bought in tobacco shops.
It's of course a very wise decision to force ex-smokers to buy their liquids in tobacoo stores considering that at least the tobacoo shops I know are usually full of cigarette smoke.
Right now it is not clear (well at least not to me) whether there will be tobacco tax on liquids.....
Currently, we can buy liquids via internet or off-line in various shops in Austria.
Notably, the draft law controlling the sale of liquids valid with october was done by the ministry of finances and not by the ministry of health, although of course it was filed to save the health of our youth ;-)

crappy! crappy!