mixing liquids in order to dilute

[AndriaD]

I wasn't sure if this question should go here, or the DIY area; it's a pretty basic question, whereas the discussions in DIY seem to be fairly high-level/expert.

My question is this: I have some e-juice which is 18mg strength, which I felt when I purchased it was too strong for me, accustomed to 6mg cigarettes, but the seller assured me that it was best to start high. I have tried it on two separate days, and it makes me light-headed, a little nauseated, and gives me stomach pains, as well as a low-level headache that lasts most of the day, with only perhaps a half-hour's use. This tells me that I was correct, and this liquid is far too strong for me, so I need to somehow lower the nicotine level. I'd like to get it to 12mg, which I think is a much more reasonable starting point for someone with a 6mg/pk-a-day-or-less habit (though I may very well go even lower, once I am well-accustomed to vaping). To get to 12mg with this liquid which is 18mg, I *think* I should mix an equal amount of e-juice which is 6mg strength -- is this correct?

At this point, I am unsure if I want to mix unflavored liquid with it, or some other flavor; but, if I do use unflavored, I realize that 50% dilution will weaken the taste and probably the throat hit; the throat hit of the existing 18mg liquid is not very intense in any case. Would it make sense for the part I mix in to be 100% PG, in order to increase the throat hit? I realize that will mean less vapor, but that's of no real consequence to me; the sensation is far more important than the visual.

Any chemistry/math heads that can answer, please let me know; this 18mg liquid is unusable to me in its present strength.

Thx much!
Andria

 

[squee]

I would think you'd either mix an equal amount of the same flavor but in 6mg strength -or- just skip the nic completely and get straight PG and add to your juice by about 1/3. Less dilution of flavor that way than unflavored with nic. (i.e. If you have 30 ml of juice, add 10-12ml of PG)

 

[AndriaD]

Mainly I just want to know if this is the proper proportion -- I'm pretty sure this is the correct way to lower the 18mg to 12mg, because it would average the levels -- that is what I *think*, and I have been cooking for many years, so I've had to learn about stuff like this, mixing stuff in the kitchen. My husband, who is supposed to be so great in math, says if I mix an equal amount of 6mg with 18mg, I end up with 24mg, and I don't think that's correct. I figure folks around here probably do stuff like this all the time, so I'm more inclined to trust the judgement here, than his -- his just doesn't sound right to me, because I think the levels would average. Being that it's nicotine and not something I'm mixing up in the kitchen, I want to be SURE.

Thx!
Andria

 

[DetraMental]

If you mix in a lesser mg of nicotine it will dilute the higher mg of nicotine. I think with what you have it'd make your mix around 15mg. If you could get the juice in 0mg and you used that to dilute the 18mg juice it would be 9mg/ml.

 

[squee]

Yes, equal amounts of 6 and 18 would average to 12mg.

 

[AndriaD]

If you mix in a lesser mg of nicotine it will dilute the higher mg of nicotine. I think with what you have it'd make your mix around 15mg. If you could get the juice in 0mg and you used that to dilute the 18mg juice it would be 9mg/ml.

Ok, so it seems that I'm partly right, at least, on the way there anyway -- so if I want to make it a 12mg liquid, I would need a greater amount of the lower-nic liquid? like 2/3 6mg, to 1/3 18mg? I'm not sure I'd want to go as low as 9mg; at least, not right away, while I'm still pretty new to vaping, learning the technique to draw the vapor efficiently.

I probably would not use either unflavored, or the same flavor, to dilute it, as it's pretty sweet to me, but I don't yet have the flavors I've ordered, which I think would make it far less sweet. Since I'm so new to these flavors, I would not be mixing the whole amount of liquid I have with whatever liquid, but using small quantities of it, to experiment with different tastes. Obviously I will need to get some kind of graduated dropper or something like that, to mix accurately, I just want to try and ascertain the correct proportions, to arrive at approximately the 12mg strength. So, for example, 4mL 6mg, to 2mL 18mg?

Thx!
Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Yes, equal amounts of 6 and 18 would average to 12mg.

Hmm I didn't see this until after I had posted... so it WOULD be equal amts of the 6 and 18, in order to end up with a liquid that was about 12mg strength? I *thought* that seemed right, just averaging the two levels.

If anyone else has anything to add, PLEASE do so. I never took chemistry, but I do understand averaging and basic ratios (algebra was required even in the 70s, and turns out, you do really need it! )

And actually I did more of this kind of thing mixing up fertilizers in my garden, than in cooking.

Thx!!
Andria

 

[Wow1420]

Hmm I didn't see this until after I had posted... so it WOULD be equal amts of the 6 and 18, in order to end up with a liquid that was about 12mg strength? I *thought* that seemed right, just averaging the two levels.

If anyone else has anything to add, PLEASE do so. I never took chemistry, but I do understand averaging and basic ratios (algebra was required even in the 70s, and turns out, you do really need it! )

And actually I did more of this kind of thing mixing up fertilizers in my garden, than in cooking.

Thx!!
Andria

Yes, this is correct. (6 + 18) / 2 = 12. A simple average works when you have equal amounts of each.

 

[Spazmelda]

Using equal amounts of two different concentration liquids is easy, as has been mentioned above, you just average the two concentrations. You can use any amount of liquids to mix though, you just need to do some more math to figure it out. There are also calculators you can download to do this for you. I find it easy just to figure it out on paper, so I can't recommend a specific calculator to download.

Here's how you do this by hand, it's a pretty simple concept that I will break down into steps, rather than just giving a formula.

To figure this out you need two bits of information.

1. How many mg of nicotine TOTAL you have.
2. How many mls of liquid TOTAL you have.

1. a) Juice A: concentration in mg/ml x volume in ml = mg from juice A
b) Juice B: concentration in mg/ml x volume in ml = mg from juice B
c) add mg from juice A + mg from juice B = total mg of nicotine used

2. a) ml of juice A added
b) ml of juice B added
c) ml of A + ml of B = total mls for new juice

3. Divide total mg by total ml to get the mg/ml for the new juice you have made.

Formula:

((A*A')+ (B*B'))/(A'+B') = C

A= conc juice A
A'= volume juice A
B= conc juice B
B'= volume juice B
C= conc of new juice C

If you can remember enough algebra you can rearrange and substitute in this formula and use it to solve for a particular target nicotine concentration, but plug and chug will get you close if you don't want to revive your dormant algebraic skills.

 

[AndriaD]

I have to say, I really don't get that at all -- after all, algebra was 35 yrs ago! And usually required a very patient teacher standing over, explaining every last bit. And really, I don't get chemistry *at all*!! Just ask my son!

As long as I know that my initial supposition was correct, that mixing equal amounts of a 6mg and an 18mg juice would give me 12mg juice, I'm good! And I can tell my husband, he doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he does! (like I said, I've done a lot of stuff similar to this, though I recalled that it was more in the garden, mixing fertilizers to get custom levels of phosphorous, nitrogen, and potassium, than in cooking, which is more "a dab of this and a dash of that".)

Not sure what my husband was thinking, saying that mixing equal amounts of a 6mg and an 18mg juice would give me 24mg juice; that's just plain dumb, as far as I can tell. I really thought he was smarter than that. *sigh* I guess h's getting old faster than I thought.

Thx, and thx for that formula, even if I don't understand it. Maybe I'll ask my son to explain it to me!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Well, maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought, now that I look at the formula itself more carefully.

((A*A')+ (B*B'))/(A'+B') = C

((18*A')+ (6*B'))/(A'+B') = C

I do think I get it, the formula just allows you to specify the amount, rather than assuming equal amounts; it's still a matter of averaging, which I think I learned in elementary school.

My brain is old, but doesn't seem to be dead yet.

Thx!
Andria

 

[Spazmelda]

Well, maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought, now that I look at the formula itself more carefully.

((A*A')+ (B*B'))/(A'+B') = C

((18*A')+ (6*B'))/(A'+B') = C

I do think I get it, the formula just allows you to specify the amount, rather than assuming equal amounts; it's still a matter of averaging, which I think I learned in elementary school.

My brain is old, but doesn't seem to be dead yet.

Thx!
Andria

Yes, I think you got it. I should have given an example, but I got distracted. I meant to come back and edit. Here I will give an example...

Say you've got 20 ml of 18 mg/ml and you want to lower it. And you've got some 0 mg/ml. What would you get if you added 5 ml of the 0 mg/ml to the 20 ml of 18 mg/ml?

5 ml of 0 mg/ml = 0 mg of nicotine, of course
20 ml of 18 mg/ml = 360 mg of nicotine

0 mg + 360 mg = 360 mg of nicotine in your new mix. That's your total nicotine.

How much total volume? 5 ml + 20 ml = 25 ml. That's your total volume.

So, now you've got 360 mg of nicotine in 25 ml of juice. 360mg/25ml = 14.4 mg/ml.

If that's not as low as you want, you can go back and increase the amount of 0 mg in the calculation till you get the level you want. Adding 10 ml instead would give you 360mg/30ml or 12 mg/ml.

 

[AndriaD]

Ok, then I do get it. I thought I was on the right track, when I realized that if I added an equal quantity of 0nic to the 18mg, I'd end up with 9mg -- a simple dilution, but it's really an average -- 18 + 0 / 2. So the mix of equal quantity of 6mg to 18mg seemed pretty clearly to yield 12mg -- my husband just got me confused with his idiotic "24mg." Sometimes I just don't know about that man -- all those substances back in the 70s!

Thx much!!
Andria

 

[Spazmelda]

If you don't have a clear idea that x mg juice really means x mgs per ml, then it can be confusing. That's what I think tends to trip people up sometimes when they start contemplating mixing juices together.

 

[Just Don]

Andria, go here and download the "E juice me up" calculator http://download.cnet.com/eJuice-Me-Up/3000-18494_4-75222193.html. Plug in the numbers you have or want and it will tell you what to do.

 

[AndriaD]

Thanks, Just Don!

I have another question about diluting, so I figured I'd just add it to this thread. Can e-juices be diluted with water? Because a) I have a couple that are so thick, dispensing them is difficult, and b) I'm thinking that even the 12mg might be too strong for me. No stomach pains or racing heart like with the 18mg, but after vaping instead of smoking about 50% of the time today, I find that I just feel icky, and I can't get that smell out of my nose. I thought diluting the e-juice with water might help, both a) to dispense it more easily, and b) cut down both on the nicotine and the flavor intensity.



Thx!
Andria

 

[Spazmelda]

You can dilute it a little with water. Not too much, a couple of % maybe. Distilled water would be best because of the minerals and stuff in tap water. You can also dilute with a little alcohol (drinking alcohol like everclear or vodka, not rubbing alcohol). If you add too much water or alcohol, it's really going to affect the vapor, so you have to be sparing. The amount of water or alcohol you'd add can definitely thin the juice, but it's not going to reduce the nicotine concentration by too much. If you try this, use a small amount of juice to experiment on ( or a small sample you are not in love with) so you don't accidentally ruin your entire bottle.

To really cut down the nicotine, you'd want to add some unflavored no-nic PG/VG mix. Do you know what the PG/VG ratio of your liquid is? VG is quite a bit thicker than PG, so liquids that are higher percentage VG tend to be thicker. You could possibly get by with diluting with straight PG.

Having said all this... It kind of sounds to me that you need to order or try some different brands of liquids. It seems like these you have aren't really suiting your needs in a variety of ways. You could save these or experiment with them, and at the same time try some different brands with higher PG content (thinner) and lower nicotine.

 

[AndriaD]

The ones that are so thick are supposed to be 70%PG/30%VG, so I'm not sure why they're so thick. No alcohol of that sort in my house for 21+ yrs, and not ever going to be, but we have a whole-house filtration system on our water, plus a further reverse-osmosis filtration system on our drinking water, at the kitchen sink.

I've looked at the unflavored PG/VG at a couple of sites, but so far the ones I've seen seem to only offer it in larger quantities, for the DIYers. I really would like to get some unflavored PG w/zero nic, but not sure where I can find it that won't make me buy like a quart of the stuff.

I'm thinking that today, I might not try vaping at all, but just keep the smoking down to bare minimum; this morning I'm not queasy, however other digestive symptoms are serving me notice that my intestines are not happy; I suffer from "IBS", irritable bowel syndrome, which I suppose means that even the slightest bit too much nicotine and things go kinda haywire in my guts. Or maybe it's just that with so many years smoking these very light cigarettes, my body has achieved some kind of homeostasis, and monkeying around with less smoking and adding nicotine in som other way is upsetting the delicate balance. But I'm really sick of coughing up a lung every morning, and every time I catch any type of cold/flu thing.

Andria

 

[Spazmelda]

Yes, definitely avoid having alcohol in your house if needed. The water should work. I'd just try a few drops at a time and see how much it thins, and how the vapor is.

Here's a pint of propylene glycol. Propylene Glycol 1 Pint: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

I hope you feel better soon!

 

[AndriaD]

Me, too! Thanks for the link; that's probably a much cheaper way to deal with this, just making these juices weaker, than buying a bunch of others at the lower nic level. But with those thick ones, yeah, I think I will try some of the purified water -- tomorrow, when hopefully my belly will be feeling more cooperative.

Of course the addicted smoker in me is carrying on with its usual "so don't bother quitting, why mess up what isn't broken to start with?"; that's the evil angel on my shoulder, but the good angel on the other side is going, shut up, you jerk, I'm trying to get healthier! So, maybe I just need to be patient with myself, take this more slowly and carefully, while still carrying on the overall goal of, at some point pretty soon, being free of the cigarettes. Rome wasn't built in a day and all that, and I spent 39 yrs getting this addicted to cigarettes; it stands to reason that trying to break such a long-standing habit might take a little while.

Thx!
Andria

Edit: I cruised over to Amazon, and actually found a 16-oz bottle for $3.95, instead of $8.95 -- according to the Q&A they have there, it's also food grade, USP, so I think this is the one I'll get, to dilute these juices. Thx!