Life Insurance, non-smoker policy, they test for nic, can I still vape and pass?

[renstyle]

It is somewhat of a difficult explanation to put in the subject, so here it goes:

Looking at some life insurance, rates are much cheaper if you are a non-smoker, and have been for a year. The cheap rates require a physical. I've just recently switched off analogs, so I have to wait a bit longer to "re-up" for a non-smoker policy vs the 'smoker' one I have now.

I've heard there are tests for nicotine (cotine), which would measure nic from both analogs and prolly e-juice too. I've also heard that patches and nic gum can cause problems too, and there is another "test" they can perform which looks for a naturally occuring substance from Tobacco which isn't present in nic gum/patches. I *assume* this substance would not be present in e-juice as well, so I want to get my ducks in a row as it were, to ask the question when I'm ready to re-test.

Anybody know what this alternate test and substance may be? I want to keep vaping nic, but I really need the insurance and the cheaper rates.

Sorry if this sounds confusing.

 

[Eric.MD]

Tricky question, but I'll give it a shot. Since nicotine breaks down quickly in the bloodstream, you are correct in that the basic lab tests usually used for insurance purposes are for cotinine, the primary metabolite of nicotine, and samples are taken from blood or urine. If the rate difference ($ savings) is great enough, I'd suggest no vaping for 3 days before your testing / physical exam. By that time, levels of nicotine and cotinine in the bloodstream will be too low to indicate that you are a smoker (there is a bit of a threshold to eliminate food-source low-levels of nicotine, such as tomatoes, etc).

 

[El Jefe]

Great question! I'm looking to change policies too and was wondering the same thing. How long do you think you have to wait after you've made the switch from analogs to vaping? Where are the MD's at?!

 

[cyberwolf]

Nicotine Test Kits | Nicotine Testing from Home Health Testing - for $2.30, I might be curious enough to buy one. Although the ad spouts the typical fallacy of testing for tobacco use by testing for nicotine.

While looking at the kit above, I noticed that the company has a "chat" function and couldn't resist...

[Robyn] Hello, my name is Robyn, how may I help you?
[Visitor] Looking at the test kit for tobacco, it says that it tests for nicotine. Nicotine is not always ingested through tobacco use, does the kit actually test for tobacco use or just nicotine?
[Robyn] It tests for nicotine by testing for its metabolic byproduct, cotinine
[Robyn] are you worried that someone is being exposed to nicotine in a non-tobacco manner?
[Visitor] Yes. If someone uses nicotine replacement therapy, would it still show up?
[Robyn] Yes
[Visitor] Too bad it doesn't test for tobacco. They should really change the wording.
[Robyn] Yes, technically it does not test for tobacco
[Visitor] No "technically" about it. The kit tests for nicotine, not tobacco.
[Robyn] sorry for the confusion

Yeah, confusion that results in people being denied jobs and insurance policies. Robyn was not interested in discussing the topic further.

 

[friedmanfan]

I would imagine that insurers are probably indifferent as to whether someone vapes or smokes since the e-cigs are new and haven't been signed off on by the FDA, etc..... so they'll probably want to test any form of nicotine ingestion.

 

[cyberwolf]

I would imagine that insurers are probably indifferent as to whether someone vapes or smokes since the e-cigs are new and haven't been signed off on by the FDA, etc..... so they'll probably want to test any form of nicotine ingestion.

Don't forget gum, pills, patches, lozenges, inhalers, etc. all of which have been signed off on by the FDA.

 

[cshipman]

So what about the People that use the Gum or the Lozenge? I think they would have a hard time trying to distinguish a e-Cig from the Gum or Lozenge.

 

[El Jefe]

In reading the article that was linked by cyberwolf....it says that through urine, nicotine can only be detected for 2-4 days after use. Through the blood it might be up to 7 days. I know most companies usually use urine as the test.....so I guess I need to sweat through about 4 days of non use to save a boat-load on insurance.

AND....that would include stop smoking devices like gum, patches, etc.

 

[El Jefe]

So what about the People that use the Gum or the Lozenge? I think they would have a hard time trying to distinguish a e-Cig from the Gum or Lozenge.

Last time I got insurance....they told me I could get a review after being "smoke-free" for 12 months. Probably ensuring no nicotine even from cessation devices.

 

[hardtailmtber]

I was curious about the same thing for a different reason. I am trying to find a new job and one of the places I want to apply states "No use of tobacco products" on their application. I would assume that when they do the pre employment testing it would be for nicotine?

 

[kmac]

Found this on ehow:


Nicotine and Cotinine
1.When nicotine is absorbed into the body, it breaks down into cotinine. A blood test for nicotine will usually include a measurement of cotinine levels.

Half-Life
2.Nicotine has a half-life of roughly two hours, meaning that half the nicotine in the body converts to cotinine every two hours. Cotinine's half-life is roughly twenty hours.

Time Frame
3.Because nicotine is metabolized so quickly, a blood test will only detect trace amounts after 24 to 72 hours. Cotinine may take up to 10 days to drop to levels undetectable by blood test.

False Negatives
4.Blood test results may fail to detect nicotine if the blood sample more than 24 hours after the person last smoked or chewed tobacco.

False Positives
5.People with certain types of liver defect may show nicotine and cotinine in their blood weeks or months after quitting.

I would imagine that nicotine from any source would follow this same rate.

Read more: Can Blood Tests Detect Nicotine? | eHow.com Can Blood Tests Detect Nicotine? | eHow.com

 

[keelalagirl55]

I would think that when reviewing the tests, they are looking for a certain minimal level found. There has to be a certain degree of error that they would account for. Maybe talking to your doc can shed some light onto the particulars of the tests and how they are read.

I would hope that they don't take trace amounts as proof of tobacco use. For that matter, they should take into consideration that maybe it might be from second hand.

 

[trogg78]

Could you try going a few days with zero nic juice?

 

[renstyle]

Last time I got insurance....they told me I could get a review after being "smoke-free" for 12 months. Probably ensuring no nicotine even from cessation devices.

That's exactly what they told me, wait 12 months, being smoke free and then we can write you a new policy. Hopefully you haven't gotten less healthy in other ways during that year!

 

[DuncanDisordely]

Can I ask what may be a stupid question?

Does anyone know if they will allow you to be using patches? If so surely you could just tell them you are a non smoker and use patches?

Yes I know its a mistruth, but amounts to the same thing surely? Would allow for the cotinine levels to be present without having to stop vaping nic, surely they must allow non smokers that are undertaking an approved nrt/nct method to be classed as a non-smoker?

Love to all!

Duncan

 

[renstyle]

Could you try going a few days with zero nic juice?

I'll do what I have to do in order to get the cheaper rates on the LI.

The prices they quote (gotten almost a dozen different ones) for me are like this:

10 year level term policy - smoker - $500,000 --> $89/mo
30 year level term policy - smoker - $500,000 --> $177/mo

30 year level term policy - NON-smoker - $500,000 --> $77/mo

I have to have the LI for my family, no matter what I have to do, and this is a real-world example that got me started down my non-analog road. The spread on these is just crazy, but I'm healthy (slightly overweight, otherwise OK) in other respects, take no medications, no allergies, etc. Only time I've ever been a hospital for treatment was when I had ACL surgery on my knee in high school. Just smoking...

 

[MsBree]

Could you try going a few days with zero nic juice?

Thanks for asking this question trogg...I was thinking the same thing! So according to ehow, it takes 7 days of non-nic 'injestion' to get a non-nic blood reading, correct?

I quit smoking for many reasons, getting a LI policy as a non-smoker is certainly one of them!

 

[renstyle]

Thanks for asking this question trogg...I was thinking the same thing! So according to ehow, it takes 7 days of non-nic 'injestion' to get a non-nic blood reading, correct?

I quit smoking for many reasons, getting a LI policy as a non-smoker is certainly one of them!

One thing I need to mention: I asked the agent about post-approval "enforcement" as it were, if one decided to smoke after they qualified for the policy. Basically said that as long as you maintain the policy, keep paying the premiums, you are good to go. Since my own research was only for term LI (which is truly the only kind of LI to get) which requires a physical exam, dunno if this is true for other types of insurance (none are cheaper than term anyway).

I wouldn't doubt for a minute if you started up with analogs again and got lung cancer from smoking, they may give you fits about a payout. Thankfully I won't be in that position anymore!

 

[lulabee]

Excellent thread. I too have been wondering the same thing about how vaping would affect the bloodtest required for LI.

Thanks for the info all!

 

[MsBree]

One thing I need to mention: I asked the agent about post-approval "enforcement" as it were, if one decided to smoke after they qualified for the policy. Basically said that as long as you maintain the policy, keep paying the premiums, you are good to go. Since my own research was only for term LI (which is truly the only kind of LI to get) which requires a physical exam, dunno if this is true for other types of insurance (none are cheaper than term anyway).

I wouldn't doubt for a minute if you started up with analogs again and got lung cancer from smoking, they may give you fits about a payout. Thankfully I won't be in that position anymore!

I agree with you on this one renstyle! If an autopsy proved cause of death was directly related to PRESENTLY smoking cigarettes, the odds of the insurance company paying out are probably NIL. ME's can tell how old (or new) physical damage is, so I wouldn't concern myself with this, as long as I am being honest!

It boggles my mind that someone would pay monthly premiums for LI for a pretty decent policy, knowing that in the end, making those payments was actually throwing money out the window (if they lied, and stated they were a non-smoker)!

Like you, I am also grateful I won't be in that position anymore!