Is the SONY VTC5 18650 batteries good for the SMOK Alien 220w?

[Hamhawk]

It is not 40A per battery, per Mooch's blog Calculating battery current draw for a regulated mod | E-Cigarette Forum

"Calculating the current being drawn from the batteries in a regulated device can be very confusing. You can't do it the same way as you would for a mechanical/unregulated device and there are so many different battery configurations; single, dual parallel, dual series, triple series, etc.

The way I keep it all sorted out is to remember that, in a regulated mod, the coil isn't connected to the battery. The regulator is. To calculate the current being drawn from each battery when using variable-wattage (VW) mode you need to calculate the maximum wattage each battery supplies.

Here's how I do it...
As an example, the RX200 has a maximum wattage rating of 200W. Since it uses three batteries that means each battery supplies 200W / 3 = 67W. For dual parallel or series 150W devices each battery supplies 150W / 2 = 75W. You use this method for series or parallel devices, it doesn't matter.

Once you have the maximum wattage for each battery then you can use the following formula to determine the maximum amount of current that can be drawn from each battery...

Max Amps Per Battery = Max Wattage Per Battery / Minimum Voltage Per Battery

For the RX200 the minimum possible cutoff voltage is 9.0V, which is 3.0V per battery (unless you set the cutoff higher). For most other devices the minimum is 3.2V or 3.1V per battery. Let's use the Sigelei 150W TC device as an example. This device has a minimum battery voltage of 6.4V, which is 3.2V per battery...

Max Amps Per Battery = 75W / 3.2V = 23.4A

So you want a battery that can safely supply 23.4A of current if you're using the mod at its maximum rating of 150W.

I should add that to get as close as possible to calculating the max current being pulled from your batteries you should add an additional 5%. This will account for the inefficiency of the regulator. For example, if your device draws 23.4A then add 1.17A for a total of 24.6A. Not a big difference, but it's there. That changes the equation to...

Max Amps Per Battery = (Max Wattage Per Battery / Minimum Voltage Per Battery) / 0.95

If you know you will not be exceeding a particular wattage that is less than the maximum then you can use that wattage in the equation instead. This often means you're able to use a higher capacity battery like the HG2 or 30Q instead of a high current rated, but lower capacity, battery like the VTC4 or HB6. It's worth doing the math to find out.

This works for series or parallel devices. It does not matter how they are connected as we are already taking that into account when we calculate the max power for each battery.

It takes much longer to explain all this than it does to actually calculate the amount of current being drawn from your batteries. I hope this helps make the very confusing process of determining how much current is being drawn a little bit easier. "

 

[Hamhawk]

So, even a 220w, you are looking at 110w per battery / by 3.2 volts, which is a little over 34amps. The VCT5A have a continuous rating of 25amps, that is if you are constantly and continuously firing the device (think turning on a light switch and not turning it off.) Mooch has done tests where the VCT5A is capable of being fired in 5 second pulses way above 25amps. The average vape pulse is under 5 seconds. So a temporary load of 35-40amps on each battery is well within what these batteries can handle with relative safety (safety is always relative).

Now, you have to remember than in the real world, there are very few resistances that the alien can even fire at 220 because of the voltage cutoff, actually only 1 if you go by DJLSB. Most of the time when you hit 220w, you are not putting that much power through to the coil. So the odds are that the amperage being put through to the batteries is much lower than the calculated 34-35amps. Not to mention the fact that being a regulated device, there are multiple protections built in to prevent thermal run-away or venting.

Note, I never run my alien at over 75-90w, I do not like vaping that high, so for me this is a theoretical exercise.

 

[KenD]

The mod has no way of knowing the amp rating of a battery, and while it has several safeties it has no safeties for venting or thermal runaway. Also, 5% does in no way account for the inefficiency of the chip. The DNA200 chip has a 97% efficiency, the DNA75 85%, and the DNA chips are top of the line. In any case, to reiterate what I said in my last post: go ahead and exceed the cdr, but don't try to fool others into thinking that's completely safe to do. That's irresponsible.

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[Hamhawk]

I believe it is irresponsible to give incorrect information that regulated mods put massive drains on batteries when they do not function the way you have painted. You really should actually watch the video I linked, Mooch is wonderful in explaining how these batteries work and what his testing means. The CDR is a guideline, and a wonderful one, that I try not to exceed when vaping, and I recommend that most people keep to it as well, but it is not a hard and fast, your batteries will explode if you exceed it, rule. Batteries should be treated with respect and knowledge, not fear.

 

[KenD]

I believe it is irresponsible to give incorrect information that regulated mods put massive drains on batteries when they do not function the way you have painted. You really should actually watch the video I linked, Mooch is wonderful in explaining how these batteries work and what his testing means. The CDR is a guideline, and a wonderful one, that I try not to exceed when vaping, and I recommend that most people keep to it as well, but it is not a hard and fast, your batteries will explode if you exceed it, rule. Batteries should be treated with respect and knowledge, not fear.

Watts are watts and the amp draw is what it is.

242 (220w+10%, and that is being generous) / 6.4v (it's a series mod) = 37.81 amps

And yes, that is per battery, and 37.81 is a bigger number than 25... If you look at my post history you'll see that I've posted a lot about battery safety, and how to calculate the battery drain on regulated mods. I do err on the side of caution, but that is something one should do when giving advice on these subjects. While you seem to know something on the subject, you might be endangering others (endanger yourself all you want).

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[Jumberlack]

so are you saying it is dangerous to use the sony VTC5 20 amp at 220w? what would happen if i do so?

 

[Hamhawk]

Thank you for the concern and I definitely agree with you on wanting not to endanger others. However, there is erring on the side of caution, and then there is fear mongering. Nowhere did I recommend exceeding the cdr, just pointed out that it happens, and that the VCT5A is a very good battery, and would, more than likely, be able to handle it.
We are obviously on the same side on battery safety. I bet we would both have near heart attacks if someone wanted to put 3500 mah efests (10amp batteries) and run them at 220w in the Alien.
For most purposes, a good 20amp battery in the Alien will run the vast majority of atomizers. I'm thankful that high wattage vaping is not very common.

 

[Jumberlack]

Thank you for the concern and I definitely agree with you on wanting not to endanger others. However, there is erring on the side of caution, and then there is fear mongering. Nowhere did I recommend exceeding the cdr, just pointed out that it happens, and that the VCT5A is a very good battery, and would, more than likely, be able to handle it.
We are obviously on the same side on battery safety. I bet we would both have near heart attacks if someone wanted to put 3500 mah efests (10amp batteries) and run them at 220w in the Alien.
For most purposes, a good 20amp battery in the Alien will run the vast majority of atomizers. I'm thankful that high wattage vaping is not very common.

i will probably be running a 0.15 ohm coil at about 100-120w, is that safe?

 

[ImThatGuy]

...regulated device...

 

[Hamhawk]

120w +10% = 132w / 6.4 = 20.625 amps per battery.
Definitely use your own judgement, I'd personally run it as it is right around the continuous discharge rate.

 

[Jumberlack]

sorry for my ignorance, but i'm still confused as to what the dangers are of going above the maximum continuous discharge rate...if i were to vape at 200+ watts with a 20 amp battery, would i be risking simply damaging the battery or is there a risk of fire/explosion?

 

[mongo74]

There is a risk of venting the batteries and damaging your mod.

 

[Cheallaigh]

and yourself...

 

[Jumberlack]

isn't battery venting also an explosion risk? anyway, i think ill keep the wattage to 120 or under until i can get some higher amp batteries just to be safe.
what batteries would be good that i can push the alien to 200w+?

 

[mongo74]

I'd recommend LG HB6 (pink) The beige is a great battery as well, but even they are 30a batteries, and you'll be pushing them very hard at 200w+

 

[mongo74]

Honestly, I recommend a triple battery mod like the Reuleaux 2/3 or Lost Vape Triade DNA 200/250 if you plan on vaping 200w...WITH LG HB6 batteries.

Or the Ijoy Maxo 4 Battery mod that can go up to 315w, why you'd want that hot a vape I have no idea.

 

[Jumberlack]

thanks, do you happen to know any canadian vendors that sell the HB6 batteries? i looked on liionwholesale.com but the shipping is $25 to canada.
also, i don't really think i'll go to 200w but i just want to be safe and have a battery that is a bit overkill. i'm hoping my VTC5's will be good enough for 120w until i can get better ones.

PS: is it a bad idea to charge the batteries through the charge port on the mod? is that also a safety concern?

 

[mongo74]

I would recommend a standalone charger like the XTAR VC2. I have never used the USB port for charging in any mods other than the ones with built-in Lipo batteries.

I'm not 100% sure if there is a vendor in the forums that sells HB6's in Canada, but there might be. IMRbatteries.com ships to Canada, but I'm not sure what the cost is.

 

[KenD]

Thank you for the concern and I definitely agree with you on wanting not to endanger others. However, there is erring on the side of caution, and then there is fear mongering. Nowhere did I recommend exceeding the cdr, just pointed out that it happens, and that the VCT5A is a very good battery, and would, more than likely, be able to handle it.
We are obviously on the same side on battery safety. I bet we would both have near heart attacks if someone wanted to put 3500 mah efests (10amp batteries) and run them at 220w in the Alien.
For most purposes, a good 20amp battery in the Alien will run the vast majority of atomizers. I'm thankful that high wattage vaping is not very common.

It's not fear mongering, it's simply using the batteries at the power they're supposed to be used at. While you may not have outright recommended the use of the batteries over their rating, you have told a new user that it's ok. That is potentially endangering a user who doesn't know better. I wouldn't use two 10 amp 18650s at 100w, nor would I two 20 amp 18650s at 200w. If I would, however, choose to exceed the cdr of a battery that would be my risk, but even if no problems occurred I'd never tell others that it's ok. I might just have been lucky. If you read through the forum you'll find plenty of "I've used X batteries above the cdr and had no problems". Sure, it'll be perfectly safe, until it isn't.

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[Hamhawk]

Point of fact, we aren't using these batteries in the way they were designed at all. We pulse them for short bursts where they were designed for continuous drain or other applications.

I'm not going to continue this further as we clearly have two completely different understandings on how batteries function. Although we both stress safety, we have different ideas in application.