Fakes/clones pro's/con's

[anumber1]

I don't disagree. It's just that gear is considered cloned even when it's not a 1:1 copy. Technically, of course, it's not a clone in that case (well, technically something that's not an organism can't be a clone )

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

The language used in the "vaping world" baffles me.

Using the word "clone" seems to be just a way to not call the item in question what it really is; A counterfeit.

I own more than a few "clones". I don't have much of a moral problem with it. I also generally call them "fakes".

I like some of my fakes very much but I would be ...... if I bought something sold as "legit" and it turned out a fake.

I recently passed on a nice looking, supposedly authentic mod (Nemesis) simply because it was over double the price of an hcigar "clone" and missing the cloth bag an authentic mod would come in. The mod under scrutiny was nice, "perfect" fit and finish. But, I have a fake (fasttech nemesis) just like it that looks and feels the same. That fake was $25. This "authentic" was priced at $150. Too bad I can't just buy the Original SS Nemesis. They are not available from anywhere brand new, currently.

 

[Vwls]

From my perspective, it takes a lot more than a logo design to make something like the mechanical mod a unique creation. There are also very few logos, and designs (both functional, and aesthetic) that are in fact unique, and original, and that are not borrowed in some way, from something that existed before it ... Almost everything "created" was inspired by something else that existed before it. That is just the nature of Life and Evolution.

Just because a modder was the first to take that pre-existing image, or logo, and stick on their mod or RBA does not in fact make it unique, nor does it truly belong to the modder who was the first to "use it" in their application of choice.

Based on Vwls logic, and reasoning, Pedro Carvalho is thief as the Caravel/Caravela ship itself, and any image depicting it, does not belong to Pedro Carvalho ... The Caravel ship dates back to the 15/16th centuries, and images depicting the Caravel ship existed long before the Caravela mod was created. Pedro Carvalho did not invent the mechanical mod, nor did he invent the spring loaded button that makes it work. He simply created a mechanical mod, according his own personal tastes, that he himself would enjoy using, and utilized pre-existing names, and images in his design, that do not belong to him to do so. FACT!

I have a lot of respect for Pedro Carvalho, so I am in no way criticizing him, his creation of the Caravela mod, or his choice to use the Caravel ship image as his logo. However, the only thing that is unique about the Caravela mod, is the "aesthetic arrangement" applied to the mechanical, even as a large part of that aesthetic is borrowed (the ships image/name). What I am criticizing is the error in the perception of reality (original vs copy/clone) as expressed in Vwls's comment.

Wow - not sure how to respond to this. You mention that an original creation is inspired by something. That is very true - just as a painting is inspired by a beautiful woman; this does not give another painter the right to copy the painting, put his own name on it, and then sell it!

If your example of Pedro seeing a ship and adopting an image of that ship for his logo made him a thief, then Michelangelo would also be a thief for creating a rendition of David based on a good looking man he saw. The logo drawing of the ship on Pedro's mods is a hand drawn original, not robbed from someone else's work.

I am not sure what else can be said - the distinction between creating from inspiration and stealing someone else's design is patently clear... even a child understands the difference.

You also mention that you question whether clones can be cheaply made and in some cases dangerous. I can tell you with complete confidence that when you are buying cheap items, you are surely receiving cheap materials. If you do not believe that cheap materials and thrown-together workmanship with poor or completely lacking quality control poses no danger, then by all means, enjoy. However, try to avoid buying the cheap stuff that is a clear rip-off of an artist's hard work. The Fasttech Caravela clone is a perfect example. They even stole the modder's signature. His signature! In literature, this is outright plagiarism and is not tolerated... why are we not outraged when it is done to modders?

Please imagine if you will... a scenario everyone may be able to relate to. Let's say you come home from work one day and find your home has been robbed. Then you see the thief is selling everything you own on Craigslist. Just blatantly selling it and pocketing the money! And no one will do anything to stop him. Even personal items like cherished photos of your family! Please imagine how you would feel. Take a moment to try and understand. This is a bit how it feels to have your personal work copied and sold without your permission. It's that personal and it's that caustic.

I don't mean to start a major conflict - I think you're all wonderful people and I'm so glad each and every one of you are vaping instead of smoking! I do want to call your attention though to the problem I've outlined here, because we are an ethical community and we need to care about these issues. Even if we all do nothing to fix the problem except opt for a different atomizer or metal tube next time we buy, that is still taking a stand and WILL make a difference.

Thanks for reading and happy vaping.

 

[HauntedMyst]

Fakes/clones pro's/con's

Fakes/Clones Pro: Looks like the real thing on the outside.

Fakes/Clones Con: May look like the real thing on the outside but you know it doesn't work as well as the real thing and deep down you know you are just another guy driving a VW Bug with a Lamborghini body on it.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Here's my deal with cloning - RBAS- fixed income for now. Spent the money on an authentic Kayfun. Bought a cloned ehpro- nice and better vape than original. Why would I spend a hundred dollars for an original when the 40 dollar clone is nicer?
Especially when i don't have the money to afford the original?
My provari and MVP are authentic as stated electronics are a no fly zone for clones in my book. That's like buying a problem

 

[gelgoog]

Can someone tell me where i can buy an authentic Thomas Edison light bulb? All I can find are clones.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Roflmao!!!!!!

 

[Shel]

I would point out one advantage of clones...

While I've vapped for several years, I kept hearing about building your own coils, but just wasn't sure I wanted to get into it.

After a while of being on the fence, I was at my local B & M store, and they showed me a Kayfun clone, for about $35.

I decided to purchase it, and after building my first build, really loved it!

I've since purchased a 2nd Kayfun clone, and recently purchased a different, original RBA tank device (Expromizer) based on the Kayfun.

I would NOT have spent the $$$ on the Expromizer, had I never previously used, and liked, the Kayfun. The Expormizer has a base that is nearly identical to a Kayfun, and so I was familiar to it.

My point is, clones, or knock-offs, have their place. If there hadn't been a more affordable option, I wouldn't have spent the money on an authentic Kayfun without having tried it, or some other rebuildable.

I agree with Tinkiegrrl , who said that for the less expensive tanks (Innokin, Kangertech), go with the original. They're readily available, and not that expensive.

For mech modes, I personally read reviews on clones, and have picked up two excellent tube modes for a very nominal price. Some may want to collect mods and only want orignals.. and that's great! Just not what I'm into.

As for kayfun type tanks... you can get VERY good clones, for MUCH less money, and the originals are hard to find.

All I know is, it's great to have all of these options!!!

 

[crxess]

Mixing FACT and FICTION to make ones point is a bit absurd. We have the FDA/ANTZ for that

Snip...The Fasttech Caravela clone is a perfect example. They even stole the modder's signature. His signature!

Fasttech, as matter of FACT, does NOT make any Products they sell!
They stole Nothing.

Also your Claims of cheap Clones and Danger is laughable.
G.M. - original Auto Maker - Has more recalls at present than actual Sales for the year.
Several times in the past year, Original Mod/RDA/RBA makers have been called out on Poor quality and function.

Latest - the original Magma - The Clones are actually getting better reviews.

If you want to preach Morals - please go right ahead, you already wrecked a smooth running thread.
But please, fantasy is not required and you should include - IMO in your standards.

 

[amolson]

For me, clones (as long as they are labeled as such) are like prints you get from a poster store. They're not signed, number prints from the artist. My Aunt has a signed numbered Dali. It's amazing. I can tell the difference between it an the same image from Allposters. However, I don't have that kind of money. Either way, if I buy a clone or don't buy anything, the artist didn't get anything.

Besides which, if you have a problem with not giving the designers the money, then never buy used. Don't get anything from Goodwill or Salvation Army. Never buy from big box or deep discount stores. Don't ever buy generics or non-OEM replacement parts. Heck, don't buy any juice using commercial flavoring, since farmers aren't getting paid to grow the raw materials used in those flavors.

It gets downright silly. If you really believe in paying a designer for his or her work, look them up and send them a few bucks using Paypal! I've done it. It's easy and actually gives the designer far more for that dohickey, widget or whatever than they could have ever gotten from the royalties on that one piece.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Fakes/Clones Pro: Looks like the real thing on the outside.

Fakes/Clones Con: May look like the real thing on the outside but you know it doesn't work as well as the real thing and deep down you know you are just another guy driving a VW Bug with a Lamborghini body on it.

Sorry dude; in my experience for some you are correct but my high quality clones - ehpro and hcigar kayfuns vape and perform identical to my authentic. Some, however, some clones do perform lackluster I'm comparison.

 

[Spike64]

Wow - not sure how to respond to this. You mention that an original creation is inspired by something. That is very true - just as a painting is inspired by a beautiful woman; this does not give another painter the right to copy the painting, put his own name on it, and then sell it!

If your example of Pedro seeing a ship and adopting an image of that ship for his logo made him a thief, then Michelangelo would also be a thief for creating a rendition of David based on a good looking man he saw. The logo drawing of the ship on Pedro's mods is a hand drawn original, not robbed from someone else's work.

I am not sure what else can be said - the distinction between creating from inspiration and stealing someone else's design is patently clear... even a child understands the difference.

You also mention that you question whether clones can be cheaply made and in some cases dangerous. I can tell you with complete confidence that when you are buying cheap items, you are surely receiving cheap materials. If you do not believe that cheap materials and thrown-together workmanship with poor or completely lacking quality control poses no danger, then by all means, enjoy. However, try to avoid buying the cheap stuff that is a clear rip-off of an artist's hard work. The Fasttech Caravela clone is a perfect example. They even stole the modder's signature. His signature! In literature, this is outright plagiarism and is not tolerated... why are we not outraged when it is done to modders?

Please imagine if you will... a scenario everyone may be able to relate to. Let's say you come home from work one day and find your home has been robbed. Then you see the thief is selling everything you own on Craigslist. Just blatantly selling it and pocketing the money! And no one will do anything to stop him. Even personal items like cherished photos of your family! Please imagine how you would feel. Take a moment to try and understand. This is a bit how it feels to have your personal work copied and sold without your permission. It's that personal and it's that caustic.

I don't mean to start a major conflict - I think you're all wonderful people and I'm so glad each and every one of you are vaping instead of smoking! I do want to call your attention though to the problem I've outlined here, because we are an ethical community and we need to care about these issues. Even if we all do nothing to fix the problem except opt for a different atomizer or metal tube next time we buy, that is still taking a stand and WILL make a difference.

Thanks for reading and happy vaping.

Oh....ok.....your "complete confidence" seals the deal in my book....you are right, of course....nothing here but what you think as evidence in much of your writing, but why establish facts or give examples of cheaper materials to support your claims when we can all be sure it is all true because you think it must be....geeesshh....tell you what....setting high prices doesn't necessarily mean anyone has sweated over anything...it doesnt necessarily mean anyone worked hard, or even developed a superior product....and it certainly doesnt mean the materials are better either....these are simply unsupported assumptions on your part...they just gotta be better!....hundreds of dollars better...for some strange reason........sounds a bit naive to be honest...

 

[Benzin]

For me its not a matter of ethics, morale, or overall quality of the products. Its way more simple than that.
Clones I can afford. Originals, i cannot.

 

[Nikkita6]

Wow - not sure how to respond to this. You mention that an original creation is inspired by something. That is very true - just as a painting is inspired by a beautiful woman; this does not give another painter the right to copy the painting, put his own name on it, and then sell it!

If your example of Pedro seeing a ship and adopting an image of that ship for his logo made him a thief, then Michelangelo would also be a thief for creating a rendition of David based on a good looking man he saw. The logo drawing of the ship on Pedro's mods is a hand drawn original, not robbed from someone else's work.

I am not sure what else can be said - the distinction between creating from inspiration and stealing someone else's design is patently clear... even a child understands the difference.

You also mention that you question whether clones can be cheaply made and in some cases dangerous. I can tell you with complete confidence that when you are buying cheap items, you are surely receiving cheap materials. If you do not believe that cheap materials and thrown-together workmanship with poor or completely lacking quality control poses no danger, then by all means, enjoy. However, try to avoid buying the cheap stuff that is a clear rip-off of an artist's hard work. The Fasttech Caravela clone is a perfect example. They even stole the modder's signature. His signature! In literature, this is outright plagiarism and is not tolerated... why are we not outraged when it is done to modders?

Please imagine if you will... a scenario everyone may be able to relate to. Let's say you come home from work one day and find your home has been robbed. Then you see the thief is selling everything you own on Craigslist. Just blatantly selling it and pocketing the money! And no one will do anything to stop him. Even personal items like cherished photos of your family! Please imagine how you would feel. Take a moment to try and understand. This is a bit how it feels to have your personal work copied and sold without your permission. It's that personal and it's that caustic.

I don't mean to start a major conflict - I think you're all wonderful people and I'm so glad each and every one of you are vaping instead of smoking! I do want to call your attention though to the problem I've outlined here, because we are an ethical community and we need to care about these issues. Even if we all do nothing to fix the problem except opt for a different atomizer or metal tube next time we buy, that is still taking a stand and WILL make a difference.

Thanks for reading and happy vaping.

Let me first say that I don't find any thing combative about your reply, so I do not take it that way. .. However, I feel that the point that I tried to make was missed. I do not consider Pedro Carvalho to be a thief ... or Michealangelo, or DaVinci for that matter. I said based on "your logic and reasoning" Pedro Carvalho is also a thief.

Pedro Carvalho may have used his own hand drawn depiction of the Caravela ship, but that hand drawn depiction is still a copy of a pre-existing image, and so it is not an original, it is a copy. Just if I drew my own depiction of the Caravela ship right now, it too would be a copy because the Caravela image already exists ... just because I draw something by hand, that does not make it an original image, most especially if my drawing is based on a pre-existing image.

Pedro didn't dream up the Caravela ship .. the ship's name, and its image existed long before Pedro's idea/inspiration to use it as his mechanical mod's logo.

A couple of pre-existing hand drawn images of the Caravela ship (and there are hundreds of them) .. the first is published on keyshistory.org, and the second on causemerita.com ...

My point was not to say that Pedro, or any other modder is a thief, because I do not actually believe this .. my intention was to demonstration that is rather hypocritical for anyone to cry outrage over cloning, and copying when there is not a single creative being on this planet that has not copied, borrowed, revised, added unto, something which existed prior to their own creation ... its just the nature of creativity itself. There is but One Being in existence that can claim absolute originality with regard to any "created thing" ... only One.

My other point was that is not necessary to vilify, or make false claims against something just because you do not choose it, or agree with it ... Is that not what your government is doing to this community right now? Demonizing e cigarettes, and flooding the media with false information regarding e cigarettes? ... If I am honest, more often than not, whenever someone on this board expresses their "anti-clone" position, it is done with a tone of demonization, judgement, fallacy, and exaggeration, as though there is an agenda to make sure that clones, and China are forever associated with "inferiority" in the minds of vapers ... and that is so ugly to me.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Let me first say that I don't find any thing combative about your reply, so I do not take it that way. .. However, I feel that the point that I tried to make was missed. I do not consider Pedro Carvalho to be a thief ... or Michealangelo, or DaVinci for that matter. I said based on "your logic and reasoning" Pedro Carvalho is also a thief.

Pedro Carvalho may have used his own hand drawn depiction of the Caravela ship, but that hand drawn depiction is still a copy of a pre-existing image, and so it is not an original, it is a copy. Just if I drew my own depiction of the Caravela ship right now, it too would be a copy because the Caravela image already exists ... just because I draw something by hand, that does not make it an original image, most especially if my drawing is based on a pre-existing image.

Pedro didn't dream up the Caravela ship .. the ship's name, and its image existed long before Pedro's idea/inspiration to use it as his mechanical mod's logo.

A couple of pre-existing hand drawn images of the Caravela ship (and there are hundreds of them) .. the first is published on keyshistory.org, and the second on causemerita.com ...

My point was not to say that Pedro, or any other modder is a thief, because I do not actually believe this .. my intention was to demonstration that is rather hypocritical for anyone to cry outrage over cloning, and copying when there is not a single creative being on this planet that has not copied, borrowed, revised, added unto, something which existed prior to their own creation ... its just the nature of creativity itself. There is but One Being in existence that can claim absolute originality with regard to any "created thing" ... only One.

My other point was that is not necessary to vilify, or make false claims against something just because you do not choose it, or agree with it ... Is that not what your government is doing to this community right now? Demonizing e cigarettes, and flooding the media with false information regarding e cigarettes? ... If I am honest, more often than not, whenever someone on this board expresses their "anti-clone" position, it is done with a tone of demonization, judgement, fallacy, and exaggeration, as though there is an agenda to make sure that clones, and China are forever associated with "inferiority" in the minds of vapers ... and that is so ugly to me.

Ok; tall are now way over my feeble caveman brain. In terms they I would understand.
Is it wrong for me to drive and love my 97 is conversion trans-am; since, it's a Camsro clone?

 

[Nikkita6]

Ok; tall are now way over my feeble caveman brain. In terms they I would understand.
Is it wrong for me to drive and love my 97 is conversion trans-am; since, it's a Camsro clone?

No .. my first car was a restored lolipop blue 77 Trans am ... my daddy did it.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

I can't help if- I paid 139 bucks for a legit kayfun. I spent 35 for an Artemis black edition and 38 for an ehpro v2. I learned a valuable lesson. Paying 4 times as much only does one thing- you lose 4 times the money. If two were closer together as I'm twice the price - or help 65-76 dollars for legit. I would do it in a heartbeat. But after learning what I have; I just can't justify it. Not when there are no electronics involved.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

No .. my first car was a restored lolipop blue 77 Trans am ... my daddy did it.

Nice!!!!

Is that the last design that john deloreon did?

 

[Nikkita6]

Nice!!!!

Is that the last design that john deloreon did?

I have no idea, cars were my father's "thing", not mine. I just drove it, and raced it too. I received my first speeding ticket in that car

 

[Fir3b1rd]

I have no idea, cars were my father's "thing", not mine. I just drove it, and raced it too. I received my first speeding ticket in that car

Hahaha
Got my first speeding ticket in a ford Taurus a weak after I got my lic.
That car was a piece of :: I tried telling the cop that if slowed down the car would stall. When he stopped laughing at my poor bell ash he gave me the ticket.

 

[HauntedMyst]

Can someone tell me where i can buy an authentic Thomas Edison light bulb? All I can find are clones.

Actually, they aren't clones, they are more advanced versions of a patent that ran out long ago. Finding an original bulb for sale would be rare and expensive but you can find some originals on 2yr.net - Antique & Vintage Lightbulb Collection Museum - Lightbulb Auction Picture Database for recent pricing.