Doubting the "Science" behind steeping

[WillyZee]

I think ... putting Melvin to bed will catch on

 

[Danoman]

Idk. I used the term steep because it seems to be an accepted term for this process by the community, as opposed to its function. As far as the question of what really happens to the juice, no one really knows (yet). I have a hunch that it is about air exchange. There is no doubt that some substances (such as alcohol) have volatile fractions that will off-gas when the cap is left off the bottle. Other changes can happen to other substances when the air is exchanged in the bottle. The air in the mixing lab where the juice was made has different levels and types of "impurities" than the air in your home, and perhaps this is responsible for some of the changes. Other hypotheses include oxygenation and other gas exchanges (remember that air is only about 20% oxygen, the rest is nitrogen and other gases). Flavor components "spreading out" into the VG and/or PG base(s) in the bottle would occur whether the lid is on or off, so length of time in sitting is the factor there. Without an analysis lab equipped with a gas chromatograph olfactometer, an electrogustometer, and other fancy expensive machines to test juices in different stages, it is really hard to determine what is actually occurring. Anecdotal evidence suggests that, whether you want to call the process steeping, aging, breathing, what-have-you, cap-on/cap-off, shaking, letting it sit for ? hours/days/weeks, etc., improves the flavors of some juices. Why? How? Good questions.

Edit: side note, I received a card with my most recent arrival from Halo that said, "The taste of your Halo e-liquid will change considerably over the first 24-48 hours after being opened. When Halo e-liquid is kept too cold, the flavor can be diminished and even taste flavorless. As your e-liquid adjusts back to room temperature, the flavor will increase dramatically. Please do not refrigerate." This suggests to me that regardless of how long the juice sits after being made, it requires the act of opening to start the "steeping" process, lending to my theory about air exchange.

I also think it has something to do with the oxygen thing too...

 

[cap269]

I also think it has something to do with the oxygen thing too...

I definitely agree with that, considering that oxygen is a component of air.

 

[SteelerFan]

The relaxing process is a chemical degradation that some people find enjoyable.[/QUOTE]

^and that is why i asked....

interesting read Steeping Advice

 

[dannyv45]

side note , why do we still say "steep"? we arent infusing anything into our juices while they sit in the closet are we? ie a teabag steeping in water

interesting topic none the less, because shouldnt the flavors from the vendors had plenty of time to "steep" already?

dumb question? idk, im here to learn like everyone else, im sure theyve sat on a shelf somewhere for weeks? months? before going in a mailbox


is it like soaking yourself in perfume or cologne? ( which would more be accurate to steeping lol ) you drive people away with your potency? even after applying layer upon layer of your perfume/cologne you'll eventually mellow out and be bearable, even likable

who really knows

Flavor molecules start there life as solids and desolve into a carrier base and that is where the term steeping comes from.

Your cologne anology would be the same as leaving the cap off to air off alcohol. That is known as breathing. They are 2 totally different things.

As far as steeped juices from venders. I've ordered many a juice in my earlier days from venders that were so fresh they were tasteless. After some time passed (Sometimes weeks) the flavor started arriving.

 

[Lyndagayle]

I've been vaping for over 3 years and mixing my own for over 1 year, and one thing I can say in all certainty is, I have never ever had a bad juice transform into a good juice by steeping it. Yes, some flavors do change with time. I vape Virginia mixed with TA and when first mixed, I can barely taste it. By the second day it starts coming to life and at 1 week or less, it has reached its prime. This is my ADV and on some days it's meh tasting and other days I can't seem to get enough of it but every batch I make is pretty much identical, as long as I don't switch nic brands.

Every bad tasting juice I've ordered from a vendor was just as bad one month later and every bad tasting juice I've made myself was equally as bad days and months down the road. I never mix a juice and set it aside to steep before vaping. I mix, vape and enjoy each stage of the aging process.

My consensus is, steeping is a saturation process and once fully saturated, it stays the same until a combination of many days of opening, closing, shaking and temperature changes cause degradation to set in. One thing that always has and always will make me laugh is when someone complains about how horrible their brand new bottle of juice tastes and the advice is always "Oh, just let it steep for a week or maybe a month and you will love it!" And then, two months later, the .... crack tasting juice finally develops into stale .... crack tasting juice and they learn that their particular flavor sometimes takes several months to blossom. Yeah, I really have seen this happen, usually because people are trying to protect a beloved vendor. This post is of course just my very humble opinion and YMMV.

 

[dannyv45]

Your very humble opinion is right on target... Nicely put.

 

[Danoman]

I've been vaping for over 3 years and mixing my own for over 1 year, and one thing I can say in all certainty is, I have never ever had a bad juice transform into a good juice by steeping it. Yes, some flavors do change with time. I vape Virginia mixed with TA and when first mixed, I can barely taste it. By the second day it starts coming to life and at 1 week or less, it has reached its prime. This is my ADV and on some days it's meh tasting and other days I can't seem to get enough of it but every batch I make is pretty much identical, as long as I don't switch nic brands.

Every bad tasting juice I've ordered from a vendor was just as bad one month later and every bad tasting juice I've made myself was equally as bad days and months down the road. I never mix a juice and set it aside to steep before vaping. I mix, vape and enjoy each stage of the aging process.

My consensus is, steeping is a saturation process and once fully saturated, it stays the same until a combination of many days of opening, closing, shaking and temperature changes cause degradation to set in. One thing that always has and always will make me laugh is when someone complains about how horrible their brand new bottle of juice tastes and the advice is always "Oh, just let it steep for a week or maybe a month and you will love it!" And then, two months later, the .... crack tasting juice finally develops into stale .... crack tasting juice and they learn that their particular flavor sometimes takes several months to blossom. Yeah, I really have seen this happen, usually because people are trying to protect a beloved vendor. This post is of course just my very humble opinion and YMMV.

Hahahaha... (thinks, she's prolly right on target)

 

[dannyv45]

Hahahaha... (thinks, she's prolly right on target)

Why would you say that. She is on target. Flavor doesn't magically change to somthing else. If it's bad it's bad. Steeping may mellow a bad flavor but it's still bad.

 

[Danoman]

Why would you say that. She is on target. Flavor doesn't magically change to somthing else. If it's bad it's bad. Steeping may mellow a bad flavor but it's still bad.

But, vaping IS magic...!!! Hahahaha... (it's what I tell my friends that still smoke anyway...)

*it SURE worked for me...* Like, the cigarettes just disappeared, like magic. (oh, that awful smell they all have that smoke) I never knew I smelled THAT bad. Smh

 

[dannyv45]

Same here I stopped in just 2 weeks, 9 months ago and never went back. after 40 years of smoking and never finding a stop smoking aid that worked I would consider this a small miracle.

 

[we2rcool]

As far as 'flavors changing' or 'flavors not changing' over time. We have ample evidence that with some of the flavorings/combos, the flavors do actually change - and some change drastically. I don't mean a change in overall intensity, or individual components 'coming out' or receding - I mean a very real change (the development of a new/different flavor component, or one disappearing entirely).

Butterfly Bait (Mom & Pops) - anybody that's ever kept a bottle for a month knows that it changes substantially over time. It's starts out something like a blend of honeysuckle, fruit & strong hint of peach - but after a month the peach disappears, the honeysuckle seems to change - but the major whammy is the development of strong maple...which is definitely not there early on. Lots of confirmations here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/mom-pop-vapor-shop/344644-juice-review-butterfly-bait.html

A friend bought Butterfly Bait on my recommendation (but she dislikes peaches - I thought she'd like it anyway and didn't tell her about the peach flavor). The first thing she said was "Argh PEACH! Why didn't you tell me?!" But after finding the thread above, digging out my own old bottle, and tasting the incredible change (which I did find hard to believe), I called her and told her to dig hers out & try it. She was flabberghasted...no peach at all - strong maple.

USA Red Mix (HS) - does not have a "cig paper" taste early on, but after 1-2 months, there is definitely the taste of paper.

From Black Honey Tobacco thread --

"I let it sit for 4 weeks and the difference is like night and day. The chemical taste and smell is completely gone and the taste change was huge"

" then went back after 5 weeks and it was a totally different wonderful vape."

"I can attest the 5 week steep time. Remember that "baby powder" taste/smell I mentioned? Yup...It's gone! "

***

'Don't have time to find all the other examples of "changes in flavor" posts & threads. I just wanted to make sure folks know that sometimes flavors DO change drastically with time - and sometimes unvapeable juices do become vapeable. One can deny/believe it or not and attribute it to whatever chemical/physical action, reaction or interaction they choose (or a blend of them all) - but even extreme flavor changes do happen over time (sometimes)...and of course, slight changes are common.

:::grinning::: And then there's seed steeping

 

[Crunktanium]

Take a bottle of air freshener and spray it up your nose (don't do this actually). The scent would be so overwhelming and probably burn a little. Once the scent spreads around the room however and has a chance to level out it smells great. So the same thing happens in a liquid with concentrates you are mixing things that don't fully bond instantaneously. The flavors themselves will never change and should remain constant which is why you cannot steep flavoring by itself.

 

[Levitas]

@we2rcool - those explanations, or examples you've mentioned don't exactly describe a flavoring changing into another flavoring. It's not like I can make a bottle of strawberry and 5 weeks later it will turn into peanut butter (exaggerated, of course). If a vendor made a juice with multiple flavorings, and one doesn't seem to "come out" until weeks down the road, then it stands to logic that the reason this is happening is because the original dominant flavoring (whatever it may be) has degraded, evaporated, and/or spread across all fields of the base. Whether that original dominant flavoring be peach, watermelon, or even perfumey/chemical something or another, I don't believe that they're changing into a completely different flavoring... I don't see how this is feasible, at all.

I, like you, do not have any scientific data to support such a claim. All we can go on is empirical findings, and logical guesses.

 

[we2rcool]

@we2rcool - those explanations, or examples you've mentioned don't exactly describe a flavoring changing into another flavoring. It's not like I can make a bottle of strawberry and 5 weeks later it will turn into peanut butter (exaggerated, of course)

Actually, that is pretty-much-exactly what happens with Butterfly Bait. First it tastes nothing at all like maple (like a fruit/honeysuckle/peach blend) - and then it tastes nothing like peach at all, and tastes like maple/butter/other instead.

It's all a matter how a word is interpreted, eh? To me, something that didn't taste at all like maple, and then a month later tastes like maple...?...changes. It's not a scientific claim - it's just something that happened (and happens consistently). It was due to something - and that something had to be chemistry or physics...cuz I'm sure most would agree it wasn't magical or spiritual intervention.

If a vendor made a juice with multiple flavorings, and one doesn't seem to "come out" until weeks down the road, then it stands to logic that the reason this is happening is because the original dominant flavoring (whatever it may be) has degraded, evaporated, and/or spread across all fields of the base.

...or there was a reaction between one or more of the myriad of chemicals and one/some of the old chemicals morphed into something else - or they combined to create something else (plus or minus any/all of the above).

I don't believe that they're changing into a completely different flavoring... I don't see how this is feasible, at all.

It's not 'feasible' that the gasses of hydrogen & oxygen (plus energy) could combine/react and create something that's not a gas - but the combination creates water. To me, that's a lot tougher to grasp than the assorted chemicals in an e-juice reacting to create a different (or similar) flavor.

We're not dealing with just a couple-three chemicals in a controlled environment. We're dealing with PG, VG, nic, water, oxygen (and all the gases in the 'air'), vibration/agitation, aeration, and heat. Most individual "DIY flavors" are a combination of several different chemicals that combine to create something we recognize as a 'single flavor' (or a flavor combo - such as Mtn Dew or Strawberries n' Cream). Throw all those chemicals into a bottle, shake 'em & heat 'em and let 'em sit a couple of weeks...?...and there's bound to be a few of 'em reacting to each other in a way that affects the taste.

EDIT - Fwiw, I realize that none of us can "scientifically prove" exactly what is happening (or not happening). I'm not in this discussion to "prove or disprove" anything at all. The way I see it, the thread is about discussing possibilities - and I think there's a chance when a juice tastes differently after steeping, that it's possible it might be due to a chemical reaction. Like most everybody, my goal is to figger out enough of what's happening to create a killer vape!

 

[RobertNC]

I have no doubt whatsoever that after mixing, oxidation etc chemical reactions in many and probably certainly in complex mixtures do in fact occur.

I have also observed that some mixes change little with no nicotine but the presence of nicotine is a significant possibly most significant source of flavor change.

And jeez folks how many times does it have to be said: you may be airing, aging or both but you definitely ain't "steeping" ever. Period.

 

[Hoosier]

you may be airing, aging or both but you definitely ain't "steeping" ever. Period.

You might be aging. I'm steeping. Always have and always will.

 

[Levitas]

You might be aging. I'm steeping. Always have and always will.

After last night's Steak 'n Shake, I'm definitely airing.

 

[dannyv45]

And jeez folks how many times does it have to be said: you may be airing, aging or both but you definitely ain't "steeping" ever. Period.

I never said you weren't steeping, that is unless you were airing. Anyone have an extra tea bag laying around they don't need.

Let's not call it steeping anymore lets call it sitting around collecting dust.

 

[edyle]

That's really odd because I mixed a couple batches of 0 nic for my wife a few months ago for when she is ready to go with no nicotine and they are still clear. The same recipes with even 6mg nic would turn orange or dark yellow/brown within a week or two.

That seems to suggest that the nicotine is causing the colour change.
Perhaps the nicotine is reacting with something?