Birds and Vaping (bird owners please read)

[shadowcptn]

Hello fellow bird owners/e-cigarette users!

First of all, I have never smoked analogs inside of my home, or anywhere near my parrot. In my opinion, that would be quite dangerous to the birds delicate, overly-sensitive respiratory system. I take great pride in my birds health and appearance.

Here's the scenario: My computer is located in my office, literally right next to my parrot's cage. I am a student and am on the computer for the majority of the day. I started vaping indoors in my office just a few weeks ago, and have recently noticed that my parrot has not been consuming his normal amount of food. I was getting pretty worried, so have been hand feeding him his favorite fresh veggies & pastas with great success.

Tonight, with all of the lights off except for the glow of my monitor, I noticed a great deal of vapor "lingering" in my office. Nicotine being a stimulant, I am *guessing* that a tiny bit of the nicotine lingers in the exhaled vapor, albeit for an exceptionally short time. Perhaps this is why he isn't eating as much and why he hasn't been going to bed at his normal hour. I will most certainly keep an eye on the situation, and post accordingly.

Nonetheless, I will err on the side of caution and safety. I will start vaping outside of my office and far away from his cage, continuing to treat my bird with the great dignity and respect that he deserves.

Just an F.Y.I. for bird owners - please be kind and don't vape *right* next to your birds cage, even if there is no remaining nicotine in the exhaled vapor. The same thing goes for smoking analogs right next to your bird's cage - play it extra safe and just don't do it!

Here's to happy & healthy vaping!

*There is no documentation or evidence whatsoever that smoking analogs or vaping next to a bird in an unventilated area poses any health risks! However, I personally believe in safety first, and will keep an eye on his lack of appetite & will post on it within the next few days. Thanks so much for reading.

 

[bestthingever]

How nice to see a fellow pet bird lover here !
You are so right; we should all be mindful of this. Bird owners have to be especially diligent regarding what's in the air around our birds. I am careful not to vape too near to my birds; usually they are in a completely different room. I wish I could say (as you did) that I never smoked analogs indoors, but I did. I like to think that the air quality in my home has generally improved since analogs are gone now, but we don't have a lot of information on the exhaled ingredients from vaping.
Thanks for the reminder, and I hope other bird owners take note. (Probably a good idea not to expose any pet unnecessarily).

Edited to add: Hope your bird is well...please take care.

 

[5cardstud]

Wow I used to own a yellow naped amazon and although I love animals a especially birds never again. I'm sure that the vapor does bother them. This is an excellent post.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Cheers to you for erring on the side of caution around such delicate creatures! And yay for birds.
They are much smaller and more sensitive than dogs or cats, for sure. Some things that do not induce toxicity in humans/dogs/cats, such as small amounts of Teflon fumes or mild carpet/furniture off-gassing, can kill birds. I'd be horrified if someone smoked around their bird (sorry, I am very much a bird person); they're more sensitive than even small children. So I would not be surprised if they have an extreme sensitivity to very tiny amounts of nicotine released in vapor -- levels that children or even most pets would not react to.

My family has a small parrot (a maroon-bellied conure) and I have always been extremely careful around her -- certainly never smoking indoors for many reasons, but also not exposing her to my hands or breath right after smoking.
I often visit home, but when I do I vape in a different room of the house from her, with good ventilation.
She's a fan of anything crunchy, leafy, or noodle-y...I swear most days she eats better than I do.

On the other hand, if your bird keeps eating less and sleeping less after you've stopped vaping around him, you might want to get him checked out by the vet. Birds are really good at concealing the symptoms of illness, as you probably know, because in the wild any sign of weakness would be an invitation to predators. Just eating less or being unusually quiet can be the first tip-off.
Probably not the case for yours, it's just on my mind because it's been an issue right now for us -- my little conure may have a tumor... (The x-ray last week showed something unusual, culture was neg for bacteria, inconclusive but she can no longer conceal that she's in pain ...she's been my companion since I was 12, so this is really hard...)

 

[bestthingever]

Madame Psycosis, I just knew you were a bird lover, from your avatar, which I absolutely love !
And you are right, even slight changes in bird behavior are causes for concern, or at the very least careful monitoring.
I own an African Grey (Congo) and a Double Yellow Headed Amazon, and have owned both since weaning. They are now both 10 years old, and are the loves of my life.

Edited to add: Hope your baby will be alright as well; can't bear the thought of mine being ill.
(gotta quit the 'editing to add' !)

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Wow I used to own a yellow naped amazon and although I love animals a especially birds never again. I'm sure that the vapor does bother them. This is an excellent post.

I'm glad you were able to know it wasn't right for you; not everyone does, and there are a lot of mistreated parrots out there...at least as many as there are well-treated ones, sadly, I think. Amazons and the large birds are difficult to care for properly -- and a lifelong commitment (40-60+ years!). Parrots in general have a lot of special nutritional and attentional needs, and even the small ones require a lot of space and entertainment to thrive. I don't think it would be responsible for me to own a bird in my student apartment, for instance, given my weird schedule and frequent absence; in my family's home the conure gets attention throughout the day. But no larger or longer-lived parrots would be right for us; she's a perfect handful, both literally and figuratively...not sure we will want to have another after her actually...she's just a love.

It's a passionate subject for me...started studying ornithology/ecology as an undergrad, actually, and while it makes me happy to see birds in the wild (I really believe we have to stop importing parrots for pets, the breeding population is so plenty here it's cruel to keep going), I decided I didn't want to spend my life birdwatching in the jungle.

bestthingever... thank you I'm a fan of African Greys especially...so incredibly crafty and intelligent!

 

[leaford]

I agree. My peachfaced lovebird dies at the age of 13. I always wondered if she would have lived a few years longer if not for all my smoke. SO, for the sake of my orht bird, Mike (a Timneh African Grey) I switched to vaping. And thus my new life was born.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

I agree. My peachfaced lovebird dies at the age of 13. I always wondered if she would have lived a few years longer if not for all my smoke. SO, for the sake of my orht bird, Mike (a Timneh African Grey) I switched to vaping. And thus my new life was born.

Wow, that's wonderful, leaford!

So many healthier pets out there, I'm sure, thanks to your company and others like it -- another reminder that people are saving more lives than their own.

 

[bestthingever]

bestthingever... thank you I'm a fan of African Greys especially...so incredibly crafty and intelligent![/QUOTE]

And ornery, LOL.

 

[bestthingever]

Someone mentioned once in another thread, that perhaps a 'sticky' should be created, to warn people about the dangers of liquid nic to pets. Wish someone with authority here could make that happen. A small thing that might prevent a tragedy.

 

[YePsTeR]

What a great thread. I have a White Bellied Caique and would hate to see anything happen to him cause of my old habit!!!

 

[TropicalBob]

Someone tell me this isn't the "canary in the mines" problem. If the birds are especially sensitive to vapor exhalations, then might not it follow that humans, dogs and cats might not experience similar problems over a longer time frame?

Your bird might be an early warning system.

 

[River]

As with any pet related issue the best course is to err on the side of caution.

 

[Kitabz]

<snip> Nicotine being a stimulant, I am *guessing* that a tiny bit of the nicotine lingers in the exhaled vapor, albeit for an exceptionally short time. <snip>

Totally untested scientifically and just my [worthless] opinion, but I'd hazard a guess that there is quite a large amount of nicotine in exhaled vapour - although this would depend on the strength of the liquid, how deeply you inhale and for how long you hold it.

Our bodies are not designed to strip out anything from the atmosphere except oxygen and even then it only retrieves about 20% of what is available IIRC. Therefore it stands to reason that we when we see vapour, it's likely exactly the same composition of the liquid that we started with. The less vapour, the more has stuck to our various internal surfaces (to be gradually absorbed into the bloodstream).

I imagine that the Nicotrol inhaler suffers from a similar side effect although the particle size and lack of a bulky carrier (vapour) might make a difference I suppose.

 

[TropicalBob]

To paraphrase and summarize the Health New Zealand tests of Ruyan products and 16mg liquid: We get very little nicotine in each inhalation, about 1/10th the amount in a cigarette puff; most of that tiny amount is indeed absorbed and only a small amount is exhaled; the absorption takes place in the throat and upper airways, no matter how frantically we suck on the e-cig. The vapor particles do not make it deeply into the lungs as smoke particles do.

So exhalations likely contain very little nicotine. Not enough to trigger concerns of third-hand vapor, nor even second-hand vapor.

But ....

A bird having a problem with exhalations of vapor is a problem for the humans who exhale it. Only our problem is likely greatly delayed.

 

[BigJimW]

A bird having a problem with exhalations of vapor is a problem for the humans who exhale it. Only our problem is likely greatly delayed.

Birds are very sensative to this. Miners used to use a cage filled with canaries as an early warning sign for toxic gasses. If the bird drops dead, it's time for humans to leave the mine. I agree that this could be an early warning signal.

 

[bestthingever]

Birds are very sensative to this. Miners used to use a cage filled with canaries as an early warning sign for toxic gasses. If the bird drops dead, it's time for humans to leave the mine. I agree that this could be an early warning signal.

I'm not sure why, but I don't think this is a warning to humans, at least as it applies to vaping. I don't think it necessarily follows that something that could make a bird sick, could make us sick as well, even over a period of time. A birds' physiology is wildly different; their respiratory systems uber-sensitive.

I know, I know. I see holes in this argument. It's a just a gut feeling, I guess. The truth is, none of us should be inhaling anything except pure, clean air.

 

[miss MiA]

I'm not sure why, but I don't think this is a warning to humans, at least as it applies to vaping. I don't think it necessarily follows that something that could make a bird sick, could make us sick as well, even over a period of time. A birds' physiology is wildly different; their respiratory systems uber-sensitive.

I know, I know. I see holes in this argument. It's a just a gut feeling, I guess. The truth is, none of us should be inhaling anything except pure, clean air.

No I agree with you, and think the perspective should be kept that we're talking about a single bird, which appeared to be eating and sleeping differently than was typical, and very close proximity to vapor was a supposition as to why. A correlation could be logical but this couldn't be a smaller more informal 'sample,' and the bird has not fallen distinctly ill nor passed... I think it would be quite premature to assume that we're probably onto something here, something generalizable to humans.

(I love birds too btw, never had an exotic one tho, just cockatiels and parakeets! )

FYI these are some great air filters, sensitive but still relatively affordable (ones that actually do something or cover more than the couple feet immediately next to you just can't be had for cheap or close, unfortunately). I have the second, more powerful one, bought when still smoking cigs. On automatic it ran constantly when I smoked; have to be pretty close for it to *go off when I vape. (*Keep in mind that it'll also go after things like apple pie baking, scented candles and any kind of toiletry known to man!)

Amazon.com: Rabbit Air BioGS (model 421A - 600 sq. ft.) Ultra-Quiet Air Purifier w/ Germicidal Sterilization - Low Maintenance - Washable Filters!, Chrome Silver: Health & Personal Care

Amazon.com: Rabbit Air BioGS (model 582A - covers 780 sq. ft.) Ultra-Quiet Air Purifier w/ Germicidal Sterilization - Low Maintenance - Washable Filters!, Chrome Silver: Health & Personal Care

 

[bestthingever]

No I agree with you, and think the perspective should be kept that we're talking about a single bird, which appeared to be eating and sleeping differently than was typical, and very close proximity to vapor was a supposition as to why. A correlation could be logical but this couldn't be a smaller more informal 'sample,' and the bird has not fallen distinctly ill nor passed... I think it would be quite premature to assume that we're probably onto something here, something generalizable to humans.

(I love birds too btw, never had an exotic one tho, just cockatiels and parakeets! )

FYI these are some great air filters, sensitive but still relatively affordable (ones that actually do something or cover more than the couple feet immediately next to you just can't be had for cheap or close, unfortunately). I have the second, more powerful one, bought when still smoking cigs. On automatic it ran constantly when I smoked; have to be pretty close for it to *go off when I vape. (*Keep in mind that it'll also go after things like apple pie baking, scented candles and any kind of toiletry known to man!)

Amazon.com: Rabbit Air BioGS (model 421A - 600 sq. ft.) Ultra-Quiet Air Purifier w/ Germicidal Sterilization - Low Maintenance - Washable Filters!, Chrome Silver: Health & Personal Care

Amazon.com: Rabbit Air BioGS (model 582A - covers 780 sq. ft.) Ultra-Quiet Air Purifier w/ Germicidal Sterilization - Low Maintenance - Washable Filters!, Chrome Silver: Health & Personal Care

Good call on the air filter idea. Good ones are hard to find, and can be expensive. But they would be another measure of safety for pets I would expect.(And your example of scented candles, & toiletries are something else birds shouldn't be exposed to anyway). Thanks for the links on these, I'll keep these for future reference.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

A bird having a problem with exhalations of vapor is a problem for the humans who exhale it. Only our problem is likely greatly delayed.

I'm not sure I get the same conclusion, at least from this story.
Like smoking, this is something I would not do around small pets, full stop. Separate rooms and some kind of ventilation. (I have no idea if air filters trap vaporized nicotine -- but I wouldn't bet a life on it.) With larger pets and children I would always err on the side of caution, too. But this doesn't yet change the way I think about the safety of the vapor for us, the humans exhaling it.

I'm no vet, but the symptoms the OP described sounded like those from exposure to a stimulant (eating less, sleeping less) rather than, say, labored breathing, unsteady gait, sluggishness, sleeping/resting more (which would really worry me). So I suspect we're seeing the effects of nicotine, and not some unknown factor.

Nicotine isn't coal-mine methane -- it's a dose-dependent toxin that we humans can take (and excrete) at a tolerable level for a psychoactive effect. (Putting aside concerns about long-term vascular, etc. effects of nicotine use in humans....which we should certainly be concerned about.)

Birds at the very least lack the body mass to process and eliminate toxins at levels above the truly minute without serious health disturbances.
Just back-of-the-envelope calculations: My small parrot weighs 75 grams. That's about 1/50th the weight of a very small terrier, for instance, and 1/800th of a 60kg human. If a nic-naive human feels a bit sick at, say, 3 mg nicotine (or some small level), the amount required is far smaller to sicken or do long-term damage to a creature 1/800th the size. They also have a very sensitive respiratory system.
(to the bird owners: While this is only known from smoking households, apparently nicotine also settles on surfaces as an irritant to birds' skin and feathers, a cause of feather-plucking, sores and other problems seen in some birds exposed to cigarette smoke and even post-smoking hands.)

Looking at it like that, it seems to me like this anecdote just reflects that (1) there is at least some small quantity of nicotine in the vapor, and (2) birds have a very low threshold for toxins.

I respect your views greatly -- are there other factors you see here?