Beginner with Kayfun Prime... Trying builds

[Psihoza]

Hi,
Im into vaping for 3 months now. After trying Melo4, Cubis2 for some time I settled with Nautilus 2 and MTL, tight. Nothing else I tried came close to Nautilus 2. Im a flavor chaser, not cloud chaser.

Wanted to move on with my own coils so tried KFPrime clone (eyotech). My second build (Kanthal 26, 6 wraps, 3mm, spaced) was the first thing that was better than Nautilus 2. Way better! So thick vapor, full of flavor.

Went on to try TC so I did SS316L 26awg, 7-8 wraps, 3mm. Turns out 0.5 to 0.6 ohms. I used preheat to speed up things. This was even better! I really like TC with SSL. Its smoother, especially with my long, tight, draws (using iStick Pico with Arctic Fox). I started to spend double amount of my favorite juice (Supreme-e First Pick) but I'm not sure is it my build or me not able to stop vaping this!

Now confusion... Im used to seeing MTL builds to be high ohm. But I really like TC which limits me to SS. Its difficult to build high ohm with it. So I bought awg 28 SS316L. I built 9 wraps on 2.5mm resulting in about 0.9 ohms but result was pale compared to previous builds. It might be my wicking, still not consistant, so I might try again. But in general, I'm failing to build high ohm TC builds for KFPrime (really small build deck).

As most people talk about high ohm builds for MTL and KF Prime, I feel I might be missing something, at least in battery life. Also, KF Prime is supposed to work well only above 0.5 ohms, and Im close to that border.

Any advice to push me in proper direction or save me a few test builds is very welcommed!

P.s. Im using VV cotton bacon v2

 

[Winblows]

I make 7 wraps, ø2.5, 26g, SS316L on my SXK Prime. Gives me 0.5ohm and a wonderful vape on 25W

 

[stylemessiah]

Weird, 28GA should heat quicker than 26GA for starters, and that surface area, assuming on the same 3mm inner diameter should be comparable to your 26GA build. Assuming also that you have the coil at the same height etc, then its weird

You have the builds down right - i have used 7/8 of SS316L 26GA on 3mm forever, and the 28GA build seems sound

Spaced coils for TC <- rule number 1, assume you are doing this already...

How are you fitting the 28GA build in, is it within the screws, or outside because its wider?

This is a pic i posted elsewhere the other day on another post about the Prime here), the inside arrows are where you will easily fit a standard subohm spaced tc build, the outside arrows are about the limit if your trying to fit a high ohm subohm spaced build/fancy clapton etc as the juice holes are about below the arrows and you want a vertical drop of cotton/rayon to them at worst, and the coil shows an alternate method of leg trapping, that i used to use on a standard inside the screws build anyways

Have you tried it in wattage mode or another mod to rule out the mod/tc? Are you getting any variance in the resistance read (cold - remove tank and reattach several times and confirm resistance is read same each time - even 0.05 on a TC build can be a noticeable difference) that might lead to it being a connectivity issue

Many things suggested above because you dont really specify how youre determining its not working, maybe if you tell us how youre quantifying that its nor working as well as the lower subohm build we can help better

 

[Winblows]

This is my coil (7 wraps, ø2.5, 26g, SS316L - 0.5ohm), way back on my Kayfun Mini V3.

The build deck on both (Prime, Mini V3) are about the same size.

 

[Psihoza]

Stylemessiah thanks. Yes, I considered and tried all you mention but not fully. It takes time and problem is that my last build was so good, none of my other RTAs satisfy me anymore So when I get it wrong its frustrating as I cant vape anymore. I think Ill have to order another KF, for testing. I believe original one now deserves it.

Anyway, I was looking for an advice about general direction. In this thread and the other one. I think I got it. I was wrong trying to push high ohms into SS TC builds. It seems it works best arround 0.5 even if Kayfun says its not good in TC below 0.5 ohm. So, I'll just stop trying to build high oms.

But in short, answers (no quates as im on my mobile):
- yes it is weird aboit 28ga build, but Im pretty sure it was my error in wicking or contacts
- spaced coils - currently I just slightly scratch the coil with my tweezers during dry burn and check for hotspots. How much spacing you suggest?
- fitting coils - this is the biggest flaw with my clone. Screws are smaller than original and wire pops out when screw tightened. So now I ctually wrap it around screw once. More work but I manage. My 28ga build, spaced, used second method, around. This probably added to the problem (connectivity).
Not to mention I also have a problem with KF clone 510 screw and iStick Pico. Sometimes it shows atomizer short and I've had issues with fluctuating resistance too. It seems not fully centered and also not sticking out enough, almost flat with the sides.

My guess is that my 28ga build was just badly assembled. I judged that purely by taste. Half flavor, half vapor, even with temp going up. But also ohms measured by Pico was higher than coil calculator suggested.

Ill try it again soon.

Anyway, my lesson learned is to forget high ohm SS TC and try spacing.

 

[stylemessiah]

Stylemessiah thanks. Yes, I considered and tried all you mention but not fully. It takes time and problem is that my last build was so good, none of my other RTAs satisfy me anymore So when I get it wrong its frustrating as I cant vape anymore. I think Ill have to order another KF, for testing. I believe original one now deserves it.

Anyway, I was looking for an advice about general direction. In this thread and the other one. I think I got it. I was wrong trying to push high ohms into SS TC builds. It seems it works best arround 0.5 even if Kayfun says its not good in TC below 0.5 ohm. So, I'll just stop trying to build high oms.

But in short, answers (no quates as im on my mobile):
- yes it is weird aboit 28ga build, but Im pretty sure it was my error in wicking or contacts
- spaced coils - currently I just slightly scratch the coil with my tweezers during dry burn and check for hotspots. How much spacing you suggest?
- fitting coils - this is the biggest flaw with my clone. Screws are smaller than original and wire pops out when screw tightened. So now I ctually wrap it around screw once. More work but I manage. My 28ga build, spaced, used second method, around. This probably added to the problem (connectivity).
Not to mention I also have a problem with KF clone 510 screw and iStick Pico. Sometimes it shows atomizer short and I've had issues with fluctuating resistance too. It seems not fully centered and also not sticking out enough, almost flat with the sides.

My guess is that my 28ga build was just badly assembled. I judged that purely by taste. Half flavor, half vapor, even with temp going up. But also ohms measured by Pico was higher than coil calculator suggested.

Ill try it again soon.

Anyway, my lesson learned is to forget high ohm SS TC and try spacing.

Always hard when you get that one great build and then try another and it doesnt match up! The vapers curse

I wouldnt rule out higher ohm builds on the Prime at all, as you have listed, you have a few issues, mostly because the clone isnt great, youre not alone, the Prime clones (apart from one i saw in passing the other day which i will find and name when i find it) generally are not great. I had a Kayfun 5 clone from SJMY (the best clone of the Kayfun 5) and it worked beautifully with tc...i have since donated it to a friend who loves it too.

The 0.5+ recommendation from Svoemestro isnt just a suggestion from them, its likely suggested for the same reason i and others used to, and still do if youre having issues with TC, as the most common SS TC wire 316L has a very low measurable TCR value, therefore by building at 0.5ish and above you give the mod and the TC algorithm in its firmware the best possible chance to work. Yu should almost certainly NOT be having a problem with higher ohm builds, it should make it easier for the mod and firmware to do TC reliably.....

As for spacing the coil. It technically just needs an air gap, but aim for a gap around the same width as the wire, reason being as it heats up in the initial break in period, that gap can/will decrease a little.

Theres any number of videos on youtube on how to wrap spaced coils, so i wont influence which method you use by suggesting one over the other, and i wont give you my method as i am almost gauranteed to do it backwards to some of the methods posted as i found my own way over time, and youre probably best off learning from the videos and the more common ways of doing it

Spaced coils arent just for TC or just SS wire, you can use them for wattage mode and other wires too i might point out, they have benefits there too

Lastly the 510 issue is a biggie and im glad you mentioned it, thats going to have a lot of implications, not least for TC which needs a very stable reading to work properly. Not every tank will do well on TC, though the ones that dont tend to be clones or the odd authentic too, and its almost always down to connectivity on the 510 pin..... If youre getting shorts (any hint of such a thing or wild resistance changes, you should always include in a post where youre asking for help) then you really should either look into sorting out the 510 - see if you can screw it in, or if, as i think you allude to its even with the outer 510 threads check that the 510 insulator isnt missing (see parts 2 and 7 in folowing diagram, them missing would affect 510 pin protrusion - being a clone, they may have been left out by mistake) and if they arent, bin it, as a short is nothing to sneeze at and potentially very dangerous

p.s. any coil calculator, even the steam engine one is only a guide, you cannot expect to get exactly what it says in real use, but it should never be wildly lower or higher than suggested - thats the time to check your connectivity on your tank and mod

As promised found link to Kayfun Prime Clone discussion: suggest you read here
Not glowing reviews for any, Ulton KF Prime seems the best option. As with any clone, you'll want to tear it down, thoroughly wash/soak it to get rid of any trace of machine oil (a wash is good for ANY new tank, clone or not), and then reassemble - making sure you get the 510 screwed in nice and snug, and hopefully protruding correctly

 

[Psihoza]

Stylemessiah, I don't usually buy any clones/copies other than to test originals before buying. Few good builds I did on this clone proved to me that original is worth spending money on.

In the meantime I'll search for replacement screws with larger heads and try inserting something under 510 screw to make it protrude more.

And at the end... If you would build higger ohm coils for the Prime, how would you do it? And what would you get compared to 0.6 one?

 

[stylemessiah]

Stylemessiah, I don't usually buy any clones/copies other than to test originals before buying. Few good builds I did on this clone proved to me that original is worth spending money on.

In the meantime I'll search for replacement screws with larger heads and try inserting something under 510 screw to make it protrude more.

And at the end... If you would build higger ohm coils for the Prime, how would you do it? And what would you get compared to 0.6 one?

Ill never have the money for the original of any high end tank, so its clones for me, though ive only ever had 1, the Kayfun 5....

Replacement screws may be possible, also consider the alternate wraping method pictured up the page in post 3, you can also achieve a more solid trapping by bending 90 degress around the back of the screw, and can also do this inside the the posts (i.e. similar to the pic above, but not outside the deck screw as in the pic, if that makes sense) - i used to do this on my Kayfun 5 clone for sub ohm coils.

As for the 510, you really need the insulator that supposed to be there, i wouldnt necessarily just stick anything in there thats non conductive as with heat it may break down and emit noxious fumes, thats why the peek insulator is used.

As for bigger builds it would be down to whether you wanted to use tc, and the wire type and gauge. SS is universal (TC and Wattage mode) but lower ohms per wrap, whereas kanthal will get you to higher ohm with less wraps....

I gave some examples of the implications of wire types, gauges and wraps here in response to a new (waiting for delivery) Prime user looking to hit 1.8Ohm which theyre used to...i dont know if youre looking to go that high, but you can fiddle with the target ohms and wire gauge on the steam engine calc and get an idea of what you are looking at

 

[Winblows]

I've got a copy (as @Psihoza) of Kayfun 5 and mini V3. after some time I ordered the originals.
Now, after I got the SXK Prime to work properly, MAYBE I'll order the original in the future

 

[Psihoza]

@stylemessiah my idea was to stick with tc, I like it. 1.5 ohm ss coil on Prime? Not sure it is even possible. But I will try kanthal.

Just it'll have to wait. Eyotech Prime clone is not good at all. Ive tried to resolve 510 issue but had limited success. I've inserted small 1 wrap of 28ga ss316 wire below insulator (between elements 2 and 3 on your illustration above). It seems to have solved original problem of "atomizer short" but now got other one. When I open flow control more than 1,5 turns I get "no atomizer".

Anyway, I ordered SXK version. For 18$ I guess better spare screws and possibly 510 screw might leave me with one good Prime and some spare parts. Original will have to wait a few weeks.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[stylemessiah]

@stylemessiah my idea was to stick with tc, I like it. 1.5 ohm ss coil on Prime? Not sure it is even possible. But I will try kanthal.

Just it'll have to wait. Eyotech Prime clone is not good at all. Ive tried to resolve 510 issue but had limited success. I've inserted small 1 wrap of 28ga ss316 wire below insulator (between elements 2 and 3 on your illustration above). It seems to have solved original problem of "atomizer short" but now got other one. When I open flow control more than 1,5 turns I get "no atomizer".

Anyway, I ordered SXK version. For 18$ I guess better spare screws and possibly 510 screw might leave me with one good Prime and some spare parts. Original will have to wait a few weeks.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

First up, never use anything conductive to try and make up for an insulator, theyre totally polar opposite in intent, usage and effect and not safe, reading you put wire in there almost gave me a heart attack. Anytime you get a short or no atomiser, its time to take the tank off the mod and try and resolve the issue, and if you cant, stop using the tank. I assume you didnt find the insulators (parts 2 and 7 missing) so that would indicate that the tank was just badly made, and you should bin it or use some of its parts (where possible and not guaranteed) as spares for another if youre getting another one. I wouldnt use it any more personally. Not worth the possibility of a short developing into something far far worse.

If you like TC then *generally* you'll have to put up with lower Ohms generally simply due to the wire makeup and the confines of the build deck, though you should be able to relatively easily get over 1.0 Ohm with SS316L given the right gauge 28 or 30, though 30 can be a pain to work with. If the higher Ohms is worth more to you than TC, then use kanthal, but never try and use kanthal in TC mode...

 

[stols001]

I think the advice you are getting is good. That's not an atomizer with a ton of space. The main problem with TC is it works better with a spaced coil (although I guess you could TRY a contact coil and see how you do. I have a prime clone there is just not a huge amount of space in that build deck, although going slightly lower ohms and TC, well, resistance isn't quite as key with TC, so I guess lower ohms, or choosing the right SS gauge and etc., might help. I might vape it in wattage mode while getting adjusted to the build deck and then see how you do with slightly lower ohms and TC. I don't have an original however, and I'm far from expert on the primes, frankly.

Good luck!

Anna

 

[Psihoza]

First up, never use anything conductive to try and make up for an insulator, theyre totally polar opposite in intent, usage and effect and not safe, reading you put wire in there almost gave me a heart attack.

Don't worry. I am a beginner with vaping but studied electrotechnics and am quite aware how all this functions and what thi risks are. Until I find some spare parts (it seems 510 screw is just too short) risk involved is close to none. Clone does have all the parts needed, nothing is missing. But dimensions are probably wrong.

But... Insulator is shaped so part of it enters smaller hole of part nr. 3, and another (wider) part of the insulator sits firmly into larger hole of part nr. 3. Insering wire above insulator (below 510 screw) would be dangerous as it could connect 510 screw and base and it would be shorted. Thats why I put it below insulator.
Now its firmly stuck between insulator and base. Cannot go up becasue of wider insulator head. Cannot go down because narrower insulator part perfectly fits hole.
It is of the same material as base that it is touching. .. ss316, and that is what we use to make coils, so its safe to vape if heated. Exactly why I didnt choose some other insulator for this. I just couldnt know how it behaves on higher temperatures.

And all this on regulated mod with all safety features. Im pretty sure i have more chances winning a lottery than exploding this thing (and I dont play lottery )

 

[stylemessiah]

Goods to hear

We dont like it when peoples mods or themselves go bang

 

[Psihoza]

Ah, I would lie and still vape in hospital

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Psihoza]

Just a short update... I definetly am a RTA beginner I guess my first 2 tries of building/wicking went so good I kind of underestimated it in future builds. And it is complex once you get into it. Many factors are interconnected and it's often difficult to know what and why went wrong.

Lately, I got some problems, even on builds that worked for me before. Like dryhits or off hits i watt mode. Realized no bubbles go up until I unscrew topcap. Long story short... I trimmed my wicking more and same coil works like a charm now. It seems I overused cotton. But at start I was blaming my Prime acting weird.

Now, thinking back of my TC experiances with SS316L coils... I described it as "plane", half flavor and vapor. Was blaming my build and wanting to experiment with high ohm setups. But after this I know I probably stuffed too much cotton into my channels, getting an airlock. Thing is, TC compared to VW mode compensates it a bit, cuts down power, avoids dryhit amd just produces "weak" and "pale" vape. But again beginner interpreted it the wrong way.

Im learning on... But for other beginners visiting this thread, take my posts with a reserve