As a never-smoker, I'm really liking e-cigs

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Electrodave

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I suppose you are probably right, or at least mostly right.
but, have you ever dipped? Pretty similar head rush, and you can't call that hypoxia. Putrid though.
depending on who you ask, though, that is indeed a buzz
I tried chewing and dipping both, and they both made my gums burn. I was half kidding about the hypoxia--although that does happen to smokers fairly frequently.

Quite frankly, four and a half years after quitting from 35 years of smoking, all I really remember about nicotine is how stressed I felt after not having a cigarette for an hour or two, and having that slowly melt away every time I had a cigarette.
 

Electrodave

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I smoked 20 per day, I always considered it a habit rather than an addiction to nicotine. I started vaping 9 months ago, after 1 week I began using nicotin free liquids and havent looked back since, thus proving it was the "hand to mouth inhale exhale" motion that I was addicted to.
I say if you wanna vape than vape, but steer clear of the nicotine juices
That's why I started vaping. After 4 1/2 years I realized that I had beaten the nicotine long ago (using the patch), but I was still going nuts because I missed the act of smoking, which had been such an integral part of my life for so long. Vaping zero nic solved that problem, and I couldn't be happier about it. :banana:
 

Coldrake

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Any beneficial effects that nicotine may have are far outweighed by its addictiveness. A lot of people here cling to the belief that nicotine is not addictive by itself. But if that were true, why do they continue to vape nicotine? Because they broke their addiction to cigarettes, and are still addicted to nicotine.
Here's some information for you.

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors allow locomotor and rewarding responses to nicotine. - PubMed - NCBI
The addition of five minor tobacco alkaloids increases nicotine-induced hyperactivity, sensitization and intravenous self-administration in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Nicotine - Gwern.net
Nicotine Clinical Trials: Why Aren't There Any?

That's a really good question and the one everybody wants to know the answer to.
We know it is impossible to clinically demonstrate nicotine dependence in never-smokers (it has never been possible to show the slightest sign of dependence no matter how much nicotine is administered or for how long), but ecigs have not been tested. Specifically, modern high-efficiency electronic vaporizers have not been clinically trialled for dependence potential with never-smokers.
It is quite possible that some dependence might be able to be created at a sub- clinically significant level: maybe 1 or 2 in 1,000 - perhaps even 8 in 1,000 - or something like that. The reason I say this is that there are two possible routes:
1. Some people can become dependent on anything with an active component, even when we consider such things as impossible to describe as 'addictive'. For example there are apparently a couple of cases on record of someone becoming dependent on carrot juice.
Obviously we would not consider this material to have any potential for dependence - as it doesn't. However there are infrequent cases of persons with a need for dependence - apparently - and they can, it seems, become dependent on virtually anything that causes a physiological change that the body/mind recognises. Perhaps it is a question of what they come across first that fits their need. It's explained by some model in psychology I forget the name of.
So by this definition, we will see rare cases of dependence. In practice it seems likely that ecigs will create about as much dependence as carrot juice, perhaps even a little more, since nicotine does have more pharmacological effect. If so, it will be unusual, of no clinical significance, and of no real importance.
2. There is also an issue of pyrolytic aldehyde generation and subsequent nicotine potentiation.
Nicotine dependence is believed to be caused by potentiation in tobacco vehicle delivery. Synergy and boosting may also be factors, we just don't know at this point [1]. The 'standard model' is that harman and norharman, which are aldehydes in tobacco known as MAOIs, and assisted by more aldehydes in tobacco smoke created by pyrolytic action, act together with nicotine to chemically re-wire the brain in a way that creates common and persistent (but not permanent) dependence on nicotine.
Now we are gradually becoming aware that super-heating e-liquid has the potential to create aldehydes in the resulting vapour. These compounds, which are either missing or at trace level in low-temperature vaping, may act exactly the same as the tobacco smoke aldehydes (as they are essentially the same). If this is the case, high-temperature vaping may have some potential for creating dependence on nicotine.
This concept occurred to me about mid-2014, and I've mentioned it occasionally since. Nobody else has suggested it so you could dismiss it as unrealistic. In my mind it is just a possibility, but it is there.
Looking at the practical aspects of this:
a) If a million never-smokers take up vaping, and some of them move on to sub-ohming, then maybe we will see a proportionate number who become dependent on vaping and/or nicotine because of this effect.
Currently it does not look as if the numbers involved will be substantial, because it entirely depends on large numbers of never-smokers starting to vape, and that they sub-ohm in significant numbers, and that this effect is not just non-zero but relatively strong.
b) It's also interesting to try and work out what the effect might be on ex-smokers who are already dependent on nicotine. Perhaps it might just make nicotine reduction or elimination more difficult.
Who knows :)
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[1] We could refer to chemical management of the delivery efficiency of nicotine in cigarettes, such as ammonia additions, as 'boosting'. Some call this freebasing.
Similarly, there may be some synergy (multiplication) due to co-administration with other WTAs such as anatabine, for which some evidence has been reported.
This area of nicotine research is weak.
It is almost correct to say, "It is absolutely impossible to become dependent on pure nicotine", and the same thing but in a different way: "Pure nicotine has no potential for dependence". The reason this is very close to the truth is that it has been found impossible to demonstrate any dependence on nicotine clinically (this means in clinical trials or other studies). Hundreds of never-smokers have been given large quantities of nicotine daily for up to six months, and no person has ever shown any sign of dependence: no withdrawal, no continued use, no sign of any effect of this type. However, there are said to be two or three cases on record of persons who had never smoked but became dependent on nicotine gum. This is statistically invisible of course: a few cases vs millions of users.
So an honest and reasonable person could say quite truthfully that it is impossible to become dependent on pure nicotine (i.e. a non-smoker consuming nicotine without tobacco) because the odds are literally millions to one against. However, it is not *scientifically* correct as the word 'impossible' should not be used: apparently it may have happened once or twice (and this aligns with the 'get hooked on the first thing that comes along' model anyway: some people will eventually get hooked on something, and it might be something no one else could become dependent on).
Nicotine dependence occurs after tobacco use, especially smoking. You just can't get it any other way. There is a remote possibility that high-power vaping might produce a handful of new dependent cases among never-smokers who become vapers, due to the aldehyde creation most likely, but even these numbers are likely to be completely invisible statistically.
Nicotine dependence is common and persistent after smoking. That means it is often seen, and it is hard to get rid of. Not smoking or using tobacco in any form reduces nicotine dependence since the tobacco-nicotine usage recedes with time, and the dependence reduces. "Not smoking" also includes vaping, as vaping isn't smoking (there is no tobacco). Vapers commonly reduce the amount of nicotine they consume, over time. Vaping = not smoking.
Smoking is a license to print money for multiple beneficiaries. These recipients vary by country; for example in the UK, the national government is a greater than 90% stakeholder in cigarette sales, but this does not apply in the USA: the States are the biggest governmental beneficiary, with huge MSA funds paid to them as well as the local taxes. California and New York have done particularly well out of the MSA system (the Master Settlement Agreement - basically, a fine that the tobacco companies must pay the States to compensate them for costs associated with smoking). The MSA funds are paid ultimately by the consumer, not the tobacco companies, in any case (the price of a pack is raised by the amount the company has to pay the State). It's just another tax.
However, in most places in the developed world (and perhaps everywhere - I haven't looked at the figures), the pharmaceutical industry earns more from smoking than the tobacco industry. This is easy to work out in the UK where the figures are easy to obtain and on a nicely small scale, and we can see that tobacco earns £2bn a year from sales and pharma earns at least £3bn from smoking-related disease (probably £4bn+).
Also, we can see that pharma probably makes more than the tobacco industry from smoking, on a global scale: the global profit (not gross) from tobacco sales is around $45bn (the gross sales figure is around $850bn - most is tax); and the percentage of pharma's global gross of $1.1 trillion due to smoking-related disease cannot be less than 10% and is most likely around 15% (therefore over $100bn and maybe $150bn), the profit margins are high, and the greatest proportion of the most profitable sales of all takes place in the rich countries.
So it is not surprising to find that the pharmaceutical industry is the principal commercial actor behind opposition to ecigs. If you follow the money trail back from bent research, bent researchers, bent politicians and bent propaganda, if it doesn't lead back to State funding (to protect their revenues) it always leads back to pharma. It would be a disaster for pharma if THR (ecigs and Snus) took over from smoking. The same goes for the US States and the governments of small, socialised countries like the UK (where government makes the same from smoking on the backend as the frontend: they get monster taxes on the frontend (OTC sales) and don't have to pay pensions and huge social support costs for the elderly, who die 10 years early if they smoke - the 'backend').
The tobacco industry did a deal with government to keep quiet in return for a guaranteed, high-profit future. Their revenues are safe and they have far less need to fight like pharma. Governments will give the ecig trade to Big Tobacco anyway, so it's all been fixed already; BT can then do what they like with it.
There are no clinical studies that demonstrate pure nicotine has any potential for dependence. There are multiple studies that demonstrate it is impossible to create nicotine dependence clinically. This means: hundreds of never-smokers have been given large quantities of nicotine daily (equivalent to 15 cigarettes a day in some cases) for up to 6 months, and no person has ever shown any sign of dependence: no withdrawal symptoms, no desire to continue use, no continuation of use, or any other effect of this type.
It is impossible to create nicotine dependence under close medical management, no matter how much you give people or for how long.
Nicotine dependence results from smoking, and to a far lesser extent from oral tobacco use. The theory is that cigarettes are engineered to be as addictive as possible, by boosting the effect of nicotine as much as possible and by reducing any negative effects of smoke inhalation as much as possible (cigarettes contain anaesthetics and antitussives, to soothe the throat and stop coughing). The actual dependence creation is believed to result from a combination of multiple factors, including the potentiation of nicotine by MAOIs, the boosting of nicotine absorption, the additive effect of other tobacco alkaloids such as anatabine, the creation of additional pyrolytic aldehydes (more nicotine-potentiating compounds such as aldehydes are created in the combustion process), and then some synergy between all these multiple effects and factors.
In other words, smoking tobacco produces a bunch of things that multiply the dependence potential of nicotine by many times.
You can give a non-smoker as much nicotine as you like but it won't get them 'addicted'. And this has been demonstrated in multiple clinical trials: not a single person, ever, has been made dependent on nicotine under medical management, despite plenty of trying. A person has to have been exposed to tobacco first: they must have consumed it at some point, in order to show any sign of dependence on nicotine.
For references, please google <ecigarette politics> and go to the References page, for links to many of the clinical trials where nicotine was being investigated as a nutrient and in order to do so they had to (a) use non-smokers (of course), and (b) give them massive doses. Note that there isn't a single clinical trial where any subject was made dependent on nicotine, ever, anywhere. Not for want of trying.
Also consider this:
a) All clinical trials and studies must be approved by an ethics panel: a committee who approve trials in order to prevent trials going ahead that may risk the subjects' health.
b) You cannot get approval for any clinical trial where the subjects' health is at risk unless they are dying. In other words, experimental treatments for terminally ill cancer patients. You cannot get approval for a trial of [insert illegal drug names here] etc as they are likely to result in dependence for some patients.
c) You can easily get approval for a clinical trial involving the administration of massive amounts of nicotine to persons who have never been exposed to it (in supra-dietary amounts of course: everyone consumes nicotine as part of the diet - if not, they may become ill). There are multiple clinical trials that do just this. Indeed, specialists such as Dr Newhouse of Vanderbilt appear to do little else.
d) So you need to ask yourself: why is it that researchers can give unexposed individuals very large doses of nicotine for extended periods of time, when the only permitted situation where subjects can be legitimately exposed to potentially addictive or harmful drugs is when they are terminally ill?
The answer is presumably that experts are quite clear on these issues: nicotine is harmless and has no potential for dependence. Otherwise, such experiments would never be conceived, would never be approved, would never be carried out (except by those happy to be sued for millions), and clearly would never see the light of day in the first place.
Now compare that to the propaganda.
Someone always gains from propaganda as that is its purpose.
Nicotine dependence is caused by smoking (leaving aside the less common dependence in the West due to oral tobacco use). What seems to happen is that the brain is chemically re-wired. This change is persistent though apparently not permanent in most cases.
Smokers commonly become dependent on nicotine as a result of combusted tobacco consumption. It has been speculated that the dependence creation potential may ascend like this:
In place #3: oral tobacco use.
#2: smoking in historic eras, before cigarette engineering was advanced; and smoking cigars and pipes today
#1: cigarette smoking in the modern era, with advanced ingredient engineering
After smoking cigarettes, the brain has been functionally altered. The nicotine dependence resulting is persistent - it lasts some time, and it is hard to break free of. Many people can get free of it with time and motivation - not smoking is the way to do it, and that apparently includes vaping since the addictive compounds are not present. Vapers can often reduce the amount of nicotine they consume and even remove it eventually if they wish.
We should not, however, overlook those who have a medical need for nicotine. That class of people includes multiple sub-groups with specific gene arrangements, who will benefit from dietary nicotine supplementation: those vulnerable to some degenerative diseases, auto-immune diseases and cognitive dysfunction conditions. These people need plenty of nicotine and if they don't get it, may develop a variety of medical conditions. Indeed there are auto-immune diseases known as 'non-smoker's diseases' since smokers appear to be protected from them. This overlooks the fact that eventually smoking may cause more harm than good.
There is a reason that nicotine is present in the normal, healthy diet; that everyone tests positive for it (that is, everyone who eats vegetables); and that you feed your baby nicotine in her mashed-up baby food. Some just need more than others, it probably depends on your genetic make-up. If your family has a history of auto-immune or neurodegenerative disease especially at comparatively early ages, then it could be a very bad idea to give up smoking entirely - a couple of cigarettes a day could be protecting you from potentially fatal or life-changing conditions that will far outweigh the effects of a couple of cigarettes daily.
It's tempting to say just vape instead, but we would first need to be absolutely sure that it is just the nicotine that has the prophylactic and beneficial effects for these conditions. It's not a bad bet though. A winner in these situations appears to be WTA refills, as that covers all the bases: a full alkaloid load including anatabine, which is known to be a powerful anti-inflammatory, and some/many of these medical conditions are also classed as inflammatory diseases (some can even be diagnosed in the first instance by your optician, since the inflammation can affect many structures including the eyes).
Dependence or addiction (which in the modern idiom is dependence with a significant risk of harm) may often have a behavioural component. The material above just addresses the chemical component of dependence.
Also, some people vape nicotine for the benefits.
 

JavaJunkie

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IMO, nicotine is good. It feels good. It helps prevent serious neurological diseases. And it is safe. This is not something enjoyable only for former smokers, it's available for everyone.

This is exactly why I have no desire to drop to zero nic. Family history of degenerative neurological diseases in the last years OR oxygen tanks and emphysema. I'm hoping to change that. Lot of promise in nicotine therapy and there's a lot of promise in vaping. I'm hoping to blend those two. We'll see how it turns out.
 

djsvapour

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The only thing I can add to this interesting thread is

Why "Fling".... ?

At $5 per disposable (these are penny devices) I can see the nicotine addiction kicking in and the cost to your pocket going off the planet.

We (the community) do understand the Whitecloud business? Yes?

If you want to vape, then enjoy. Get a refillable basic e-cig and vape 3mg or something. Don't throw good money after bad on this over-hyped stuff.
 
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