65Mg-75Mg E-Liquid

[kinabaloo]

Maybe a hybrid appraoch would be best: the nictne is at 7% ('70mg), or higher, but in a sealed vial that is pierced by a needle on insertion into the e-cig. The juice in this sealed unit is ultrasonically misted (vibrated to a mist); this mist then joins a vapor flow that is PG and flavorings heated as normal.

Benefits: the nicotine part is sealed (easier with a misting mechanism); the nicotine is not degaded. There is still PG/VG for a 'smoke effect' and there is still warmth.

 

[DaBrat]

I live to be denigrated for the privilege of enlightenment!

I'm just speculating, but that's most of what you see here. Please tell me why we should take for granted that the conditions that make for good vapor production from PG makes for good vaporization of nicotine? I was under the impression that the visible vapor comes from PG, not the conversion of nicotine to vapor form. I'm not a chemist, but isn't the product of any reaction of this type going to vary with heat applied (which is not constant) and other variable factors built into the design of these products? Is the objective to simply add as much heat as possible to maximize both reactions and we can just assume the vaporizer does this by design? I'm thinking that's not the case since the heat and amount of air available vary so much when taking a drag.

Actually it seems that the delivery method and size of particles has a lot to do with the nictine dellivery. From what I read the small size of the articles from the PV doesn;t allow it to be drawn deep enough into the lungs to be delivered via bloodstream like analogs do. Basically the yare so small that they are absorbed before getting that far and the absorption sites don't go directly into the blood stream with the fresh air supply. Therefore it takes a bit longer getting to the brain. Not to mention the smaller concentrations.

That being said, it does go in and get deposited on the lips, gums, teeth, throat all sites of likely irritation.

 

[kinabaloo]

?? Nicotine from analogs reach peak concentrations in about 5 mins at a MUCH higher concentration while the ecig does not reach peak for 15-20 mins. Anologs deliver about 10Xs more nicotine per puff. Its the delivery method that makes the difference. Analogs pass directly though the lungs and into the bloodstream while ecig nic is absorbed by the mucosa much in the way of the inhaler NRT.

The release of nicotine is far slower in the analog but faster into the bloodstream (and more of the nicotine makes it - tests show). More of it makes it is perhaps because of the slower vaporisation (less degradation) - it's a possibility.

 

[dave8944]

It really isn't a matter of quality - the atomiser just boils the liquid - you can do this with a teaspoon and a gas lighter. So the idea that if the atomiser was US made t would be wonderful is just bunk.

However, though the vaping process is in one sense simple, there are a number of factors that could be explored that might bring about improvements. Things like temperature control and juice flow control.

I have wondered before whether part of the deposit on the heater coil could be nicotine - I think that is quite likely and would be quite easy to test (vape/auto-vape a very pure nicotine in PG (leaves no deposit) with a new atomiser and look for a deposit after, say, 5ml). It's one possible explanation for the mismatch between juice nicotine concentration (and expected blood levels) and actual, lower, blood nicotine levels.

Another possibility is that PG and VG hold onto the nicotine rather than letting it be absorbed, as I have also written about before. This would cause both a slower intake (less peaked blood levels, but more sustained), and perhaps also allows some of the nicotine to evaporate away and never get absorbed; perhaps a bit of both. The holding onto nicotine would be much higher with VG.

Perhaps a bit of all 3.

It's good to hear a proposed mechanism for the lack of absorption from vapor.

Like fuel injection and carburetors in cars, yes I think we can build a better engine!

 

[DaBrat]

The release of nicotine is far slower in the analog but faster into the bloodstream (and more of the nicotine makes it - tests show). More of it makes it is perhaps because of the slower vaporisation (less degradation) - it's a possibility.

Based on the avail info I have, the amount of nicotine delivered from the analog is ten times higher and the absorption site, the lungs us what causes the immediate gratification which you won't find in an Ecig. I would love to take a look at the information you are talking about.

You can find most of what I am talkng about in the ruyan tests and comparison with the nicotrol inhaler.

 

[kinabaloo]

A potential pitfall with a liquid (e-juice) is fractional distillation. And that does still happen a bit - PG flavoring and nic all vaporising at different times, to a small extent. 'Flash heating' could be expected to overcome that possibility and because the amount of liquid is tiny (~0,01ml / puff), seems reasonable. But this is not ideal.

The analog has a big advantage in that there is a heat gradient in the tobacco, and this heat gradient slowly moves down the tobacco tube.

 

[DaBrat]

A potential pitfall with a liquid (e-juice) is fractional distillation. And that does still happen a bit - PG flavoring and nic all vaporising at different times, to a small extent. 'Flash heating' could be expected to overcome that possibility and because the amount of liquid is tiny (~0,01ml / puff), seems reasonable. But this is not ideal.

The analog has a big advantage in that there is a heat gradient in the tobacco, and this heat gradient slowly moves down the tobacco tube.

Which in turns allows that 'boost' of nicotine that you don't get from the ecig.... The thing about ecigs, and I hope I am not the only one this effects (at least this is what I read from other posters), there are no drastic ups and downs unless you go for an extended period without or drop your juice concentration too fast. Unlike an analog, where that craving rears each and everytime if you let it.

 

[kinabaloo]

Indeed. Some might be lost and become coil deposit. The rest of the explanation, perhaps the bigger part, is that the nicotine is less free in e-juice. There could be some kind of binding with the PG or VG.

I was discussing this a little with Exogenesis recently - how the e-juice has a slight color tinge that is not the color of PG or nicotine ... Or it's just that PG and especially VG are slow to evaporate and the nic stays dissolved in tint droplets of the VG/PG - this wouldnt happen (hardly) with analogs.

This would also help explain how some people still manage to OD (if that is the case) - the nic is absorbed in the end, but it first builds up, entering only slowly.

Based on the avail info I have, the amount of nicotine delivered from the analog is ten times higher and the absorption site, the lungs us what causes the immediate gratification which you won't find in an Ecig. I would love to take a look at the information you are talking about.

You can find most of what I am talkng about in the ruyan tests.

 

[DaMulta]

A potential pitfall with a liquid (e-juice) is fractional distillation. And that does still happen a bit - PG flavoring and nic all vaporising at different times, to a small extent. 'Flash heating' could be expected to overcome that possibility and because the amount of liquid is tiny (~0,01ml / puff), seems reasonable. But this is not ideal.

The analog has a big advantage in that there is a heat gradient in the tobacco, and this heat gradient slowly moves down the tobacco tube.

High Voltage does slow me down. I will admit that! For one I get more vapor, because it's vaporizing it faster tvhan doing it slowly.

I wonder if the New Atomizer for the GG that is being released that is supposed to handle 7.4 will help!


Also great idea about the auto feed system.

 

[kinabaloo]

Actually it seems that the delivery method and size of particles has a lot to do with the nictine dellivery. From what I read the small size of the articles from the PV doesn;t allow it to be drawn deep enough into the lungs to be delivered via bloodstream like analogs do. Basically the yare so small that they are absorbed before getting that far and the absorption sites don't go directly into the blood stream with the fresh air supply. Therefore it takes a bit longer getting to the brain. Not to mention the smaller concentrations.

That being said, it does go in and get deposited on the lips, gums, teeth, throat all sites of likely irritation.

Actually smaller would get deeper. The particle size with analogs is the ash, but the nicotine might well be as vapor alongside the ash. The nic with vaping would not be hindered much by the mouth lining and would still go into the lungs (majority) - BUT can quite easily be redissolved by droplets of PG/VG.

 

[TheLizinator]

If you vape 4ml of 36mg/ml juice in a day thats a total of 144mg of Nicotine VAPED...over 12 hours that 12mg an hour VAPED...there was a scientific Experiment posted previously(Link Here...When i find it) Where they gave a BLOOD test to SEVERAL people who Vaped 16mg/ml juice for 5 minutes and SEVERAL people who smoked a Cigarette for 5 Minutes...the results were something like 13.4mg absorbed for smoking and ONLY 1.3mg's absorbed for Vaping

SOOO OF that 144mg you vaped OVER AN ENTIRE DAY(12mg an Hour) your body ONLY absorbed 14.4mg(1.2mg an Hour) This is ABOUT the Equivalent of ONE CIGARETTE AN HOUR or 12 a Day....LESS THEN A PACK A DAY

Lets use 70mg as an Example since that is brought up in this thread SOO
If you VAPE 4ml's of 70mg over a 12 hour period that is 280mg of Nicotine VAPED(23.3mg an Hour) When you account for the FACT that only 10% of that is Absorbed by the Body it comes down to 28Mg's a day (2.3mg's an Hour) About a Pack and a Half a day...IF YOU ARE USED TO SMOKING A PACK AND A HALF IN A DAY....THIS IS PERFECTLY FINE!!

Don't let the wrong information given by some confuse you guys..What i've posted is Indisputable

This makes sense to me. I'm not getting the nicotine I did when I smoked and definitely intend to increase it as much as necessary. The cleaner juice would be a very good thing. I am not keen on flavors, I just want the nicotine in my vaping.

 

[Minimike]

FREEDOM!!!! They are messing with MY freedom by trying to ban/regulate my stuff. This is WRONG!!!

On the other hand - those fools that want to use something different than me can go suck an egg. They shouldn't be allowed to use the xx mg stuff because I think it is bad for them.

What a bunch of nannies.

 

[kinabaloo]

Another factor we shouldnt forget is that normally nicotine is mostly in a bound form already, not much is freebase. The super pure nicotine is nearly all freebase, but that's before being added to PG/VG. There might be something going on there that nobody really knows as yet. We think it's just dissolved and while any bonding is likely not strong it might be signicant in some way, perhaps some other way (not a bonding issue exactly).

 

[kinabaloo]

I guess there are some figures for nic measured in the vapor as well as in the blood. These should tell us if the problem is more in the atty or more n the body.

Getting tired now but will remember to look into that later ...

 

[kinabaloo]

The other unusual thing about vaorising with current atomisers is that we tend to assume the atomiser materials are of no consequence. Nickel, chromium and tin are all transistion metals and common catalysts; plus there is electricity - and liquid (that is at least slightly polar).

Still lots to look into ...

 

[DaBrat]

LOL got booted last night and decided to give it up. Now on with the show.

OK Big Tobacco spent years and billions of dollars to get and keep its customers hooked. That did not stop with nicotine addition but various chemicals for nicotine absorption enhancement. Some chemicals are addictive in and of themselves such as formaldehyde others, like that 'A' one acts like an MAO inhibitor. They didn't do it by accident.

Personally I prefer to take the occasional monster craves. I have not been vaping long enuff to forget that I was a slave to the cigarette not the other way around and would hate for juice makers to resort to the underhanded methods of Big Tobacco simply to create a new class of addicts. Get em hooked and keep em that way.

Somethings you will never get from an ecig, unless you want your juice to contain a lot of the things that we go 8-o about that are contained in analogs.

Do I want to see more delivery or more effective delivery of nicotine in the PV? No. The fact of the matter is that although nicotine itself does not cause cancer it does inhibit the destruction of cancerous cells. It causes the immune system not to react normally to these cells allowing them to multiply.

Everything is not for everybody. Before we try to create a new class of nictine addiction, we need to look at the consequences. Vaping is not smoking and that seems to be the thing we need to prove. If you need what smoking delivers that only way to get it is to smoke. Anyone who thinks they are going to get the same satisfaction from vaping in the same amount as smoking is mistaken, at least until your body gets used to doing without the other stuff... If you read the insert for Pfizer's nicotrol inhaler (which has a bigger resevoir than my 510) you will see that it is reccommended to use 6-16 carts per day. Only ONE of the many addictive substances are being addressed by vaping or NRT and that is the nicotine. They may fail due to the lack of other addictive substancee... who knows? The plus with the PV is that your get a more realistic feel. Things like throat hit, smoke, pretty lights and that helps the illusion somewhat.

I can tell you this, yesterday I had my first jones fit since I started vaping. I had cut back to 18 mg from 24 but still had some 24 around. Vaped my head off but still could not cut that craving. The only thing I DID manage to do was to vape myself into a hot flash proof that I was getting enough nic (more than enough) and proof that it was something else I was craving.

 

[Angela]

Very interesting thread!

[snip]

Now drinking it? Some one on TW drank about 3-4Ml of it in a drink(prank joke). Didnt feel to great, but didn't die.

[/snip]

Now DaMulta.... that's putting it a bit mildly don't you think? He immediately vomited most of it back up (thankfully) and spent the following few hours semi-passed out!

To my mind, the real issue is not vaping high strength... nor is it someone drinking it, the problem with this stuff is the potential for absorbtion through the skin through accidental spillages. Manufacturers really need to look into a new design of bottle that enables us to refill a cart, but without the possibiliy of spilling large quantities accidentally. [Actually, this is something that I have thought about a lot and have a design in my head, but haven't got the first idea of how to get a prototype made.... if anyone has any ideas/experience, PM me]

Yes, I think for quite a few people, there is a lacking with vaping. I would really like to vape for a few minutes and feel satiated for an hour.

The missing nicotine is a real issue. Sure, one vape stronger juice, but how much better it would be if the juice could be lower and still as effective. May or may not be possible. But first we need to understand the why.

The answer might arise from the fact that smoking analogs is a far calmer/slower way to vaporise the nicotine. Forget the combustion and higher temps for a moment - these produce the toxic tar but the nicotine is vaporised as the heat slowly approaches, not in the fire ...

The thing that concerns me with this, is that I do not want more and more chemicals/additives added to the liquid to enhance nicotine absorbtion...... that's how the modern cigarette came about!

 

[DaBrat]

very interesting thread!

The thing that concerns me with this, is that i do not want more and more chemicals/additives added to the liquid to enhance nicotine absorbtion...... That's how the modern cigarette came about!

exactly!!!

 

[SLDS181]

I'm not so much worried about someone vaping it as I am a small amount being ingested. A half a ml of that would kill a child unless it caused vomiting before it could be absorbed by the mouth, throat and stomach.

Still kinda scary... I mean what is next, 90mg?

I have stuff in my house that will burn the skin and put a kid in a coma.

I have others that release nerve deadening agents.

Bleach, and air freshener.

Lets put things in perspective please. You don't leave nicotine liquids out in the open for your three year old any more than you give them a cup of bleach.

 

[Vaporer]

Here is an interesting excerpt from a book that talks about nicotine adsorbtion. Its references come from an analog study, but addresses issues being discussed here.
A handbook on drug and alcohol abuse ... - Google Books