What kind of nicotine is in e-liquid

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JW50

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Below is a listing from a bottle of e-liquid that I purchased from Liberty Flights:
Listed ingredients of Liberty Flights - VG | e-liquid | Winston | 14mg
vegetable glycerin 75.0%
3-methylcyclopentane-12-dione 2.5%
1-malic acid 3.0%
2,3,5,6-tetramethylpyazine 1.5%
2,3,5-trimthylprazine 0.3%
betadamescenone 0.2%
acetylpyrazine 0.2%
2-acetylpyradine ethanol 10.0%
rhodinol 0.3%
vanillin 2.5%
ethyl acetate 0.5%
ethyl maltol 1.0%
2-mthyl-butyic acid 0.5%
Then here is a listing of ingredients of a bottle of e-liquid purchased from TWW.
Pillbox 38 Totally Wicked E-Smoking Liquid | Chocolate | 18 MG
Tobacco essencial oil <5%
Tobacco leaf oil <5%
Nicotine (from tocacco leaf) <3%
2,3,5-Trimethylpyrazine <1%
2,3,5,6-Tetramethylpyrazine <1%
2,5-Dimethylpyrazine <1%
2-Acetypyrazine <1%
2-Methyl butyic acid <1%
Terp ineol <1%
Ethyl maltol <1%
Guaiacol <1%
Acetyl pyridine <2%
Octalactone(gamma) <1%
Pure water <10%
Propylene glycol >65%
Glycerol <20%

One of the first things noticed here is that the percent of ingredients for Liberty Flights does not add up to 100%. The percentages listed actually add to 97.5%. However, the explanation might be that there are a number of ingredients not listed because the ingredient contributes less than, say 0.2%, is therefore "not significant". But this explanation would mean there are something like 13 or so compounds/chemicals that are not identified. Another explanation might be that the "missing" percent is nicotine as nicotine is not a specifically listed ingredient.

Another thing that is noted is that there does appear to be variation in the chemicals used in the e-liquids from vendor to vendor. Although there are some common chemicals between the Liberty Flights blend and the blend of TTW, there are several variation as well. The most notable to me is the water. TTW apparently uses water in its mixes whereas Liberty Flights seems to be using 2-acetylpyradine ethanol in its place. Since I'm not a chemist, it is kind of hard for me to know if 2-acetylpyradine ethanol is as good as vodka but vodka or something like vodka might be the difference.

Another observation relates to what seems to be a relatively common type of thread posted on the forum. The common type that I have in mind is the type where a usually new vaper comments that their chest has started to hurt since starting to vape or that their sleep condition has changed since starting to vape, etc. That is, some health related issue has arisen since beginning to vape. A common reply to these type posts is the PG (or VG) has been known to cause allergic type responses and that best advise is to try PG (or VG) and drink plenty of water. But what the above listing suggests to me is that there could be quite a number of different possible chemicals that might be creating adverse responses. It seems to me that some of these complaints might just be related some particular vendors "special brew" or even a "bad batch" of a standard brew that has worked well in the past for the vaper. It also suggests to me that if one finds that "special blend" that works well without problems, it might be best to stick with the "winner" (manufacturer primarily IMO) and not venture to new vendors with the hope of saving a few pennies.

But - the real question. Given the concoction of chemicals that are found in e-liquids, is it not likely that the nicotine in the e-liquid is likely a salt of nicotine instead of free base nicotine? Some vapers find vaping somewhat short from their prior experiences of smoking. Could it be that the lack of free base nic is the short fall?

Phillip Morris recently acquired patent rights to an inhaler system that involve nicotine pyruvate. Kind of wondering if the addition of a little pyruvic acid (or perhaps as replacement for 2-Methyl butyic acid) to the "brew" might create a vapor that would be move receptively received in the lungs that might take vapers closer to prior smoking experiences? And, just maybe, there is an e-liquid mixture out there now that has some nicotine pyruvate in its vapor? Would like to know if such a brew exists.
 

JW50

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To the chemist I would like to ask the question: Is the concoction that we refer to as e-liquid a solution, a combination solution/emulsion or a solution that involves a primary solvent (?VG or PG) plus new compounds created as reactants to chemical combinations of the basic chemicals listed as ingredients? If there is a solution, would vaporization "distill" the solute from the solvent? Could a compound that is a nicotine salt in liquid form because free base nicotine plus something else upon vaporization?
 

mwa102464

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Different mixes and flavors will have different ingredients so its not always going to be the exact same thing, for the most part your main ingredients will be PG/VG/Nic, ethyl maltol, acetyl pyrazine, guaiacol, and what else comes from all the different flavorings involved with extracts and concentrates will vary a bit, especially because all juice makers don't mix exactly the same. This is just my own personal opinion and I may not be 100% correct I'm not a scientist.
 

malyden

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From my understanding most of the other chemicals are due to the flavoring. Also the comparison is slightly flawed as you are comparing two different types of liquid - a chocolate and a tobacco flavor at two different strengths.
Some people are found to have difficulties with some flavorings as well as certain brands of eliquid. In most cases the problems that people have when first starting are due mainly to withdrawal from the various chemicals in analogs, dehydration from not drinking enough fluids, too high of a nicotine level and/or reaction to PG/VG. The nicotine that is in eliquid is derived from tobacco - I don't think any vendor uses synthetic nicotine.
Sorry I am not a chemist and can not fully answer your questions but I hope I was able to help some.
 

JW50

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Malyden - You are quite right the nic levels and flavors differed. However, I had two different flavors of LF e-liquid (didn't list one) and at dffferent nic levels. Ingredients on bottle the same though. Also had a 20ml bottle of 11mg in Apple flavor from TWW. No ingredient listing at all there. Had an 18mg, M/Borough of e-liquid from TTW. Listing same as the Chocolate there.
 

JW50

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mwa - I've heard that before too. But, see above. Flavors don't seem to change things. Possibly for LF, that missing 2.5% is for flavors. I have also looked at some of the lab testing of e-liquid that has at times been requested by vendors. Those results don't seem to jive (specifically) with the ingredient listings here. (Generally - kind of, but not specifically.)
 

JW50

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malyden - Concerning synthetic nic. I think I have read about all there is on the forum on the topic. It seems to be case that probably nic comes from tobacco. TTW specifically says that for the item as I listed. But I have also found where Nicotrol uses a synthetic in their inhaler. There is a test that was done in '80s (I think) by tobacco institute (I think) that uses synthetic. Apparently some vendor has told oldchemist (I think) that synthetic is used in some e-liquid products. ECF chemists seem not to belief this and that the vendor is being duped. Price of synthetic seems to be 4X higher that if of tobacco sources. But - do we really know? I have seen not testing on this forum that tests the source. Then, look at ingredients for TTW. See the tobacco oils. Wonder if they have something other than nic present (other minor alkoloids maybe?).
 

malyden

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JW wish I knew more about chemistry to be able to help you out. You might try contacting someone at CASAA they may be able to help you out or know where to check for more resources.
I'm glad your experience with Altsmoke was a positive one, at one point the listing of the ingredients were on his site but he has been making changes to the site and may have accidentally removed the link. I'm sure if you asked for the eliquid ingredient list he would be more than happy to supply you that information. Best of luck in finding the answers you're looking for.
 

Ande

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about the ingredients not adding up to 100%- the convention with pharmaceuticals is that the ingredient list is actually a list of secondary ingredients, with the main (active)ingredient listed on the front label. Though eliquids are not pharmaceutical products, some of them seem to have followed that custom. So the bottle I have in front of me lists nicotine 1,8 percent on the front of the bottle, other ingredients (totalling 97,7%) listed on the back. So there are a few minor unlisted flavorings, perhaps, but not as much as all that.

My chemistry is so old it's probably irrelevant- but I wonder (and don't know): How volatile is nicotine pyruvate? My impulse is to suspect it might be a gas at room temperature, or turn into one very easily. DOn't know, but that would be one explanation for not having it in eliquid- if the vapor point it to low to stay liquid easily, I don't think it would work. :)

As I understand the technology that Phillip Morris et al are getting into, it's a device that mixes nicotine with pyruvic acid when you draw on it, producing a vapor. (Meaning that it would produce a vapor from a chemical reaction rather than a heat reaction.) But the nicotine based liquid and the pyruvic acid wouldn't mix until you drew on it.

It's an interesting prospect, though I'm not sure how it would/could be applied to the current ecig. I think it would call for a whole new device design, not just a new liquid.

That said, I'm not too interested in a new device- the one I have was good enough to get me off the cigs. That's all I need. :)

Ande

PS- If I'm totally wrong about the basic chemistry here, I wouldn't be at all surprised.
 

JW50

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Ande - I don't have a clue whether you're wrong or right. On the Phillip Morris deal I kind of think that various salts of nicotine were tested. (That is, the salt was the inhaled product.) Of the various salts tested, nicotine pyruvate got into blood fastest. (Closer to ciggies). My understanding is that free base nic is quite unstable. Wants to be a salt or something other than free base. In those ingredients there are some acids. Maybe makes some salt with nic now. But - why not pyruvic acid in mix? No - I don't see new device. Use same devise to vaporized and aerosolized the salt that seems to hit better than others. Phillip Morris does not have the heat but the heat might make the process with e-cig actually better. Maybe?? Of course, if what you do now works and it keeps you away from the cigs - you are there and no change necessary. Unlike others we have likely come across, I do no insist my way is the ONLY way.

I thought about the nic as being the missing 2.5%. Might be how they have done it. It works perfect if 25mg e-liquid. Not too far off if 18mg e-liquid, etc. I might complain about lack of full disclosure but any other info on that label would make its reading that much more difficult. Might lose more than gained. 97.5%, with "some" nic, is "pretty close".
 

JW50

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wrigley - Thanks for inquiring and getting bad. I've read that before. Personally I'm not totally convinced but fairly strong conviction on the part of most chemists on this forum that the (-)- is the type of nic from tobacco. But even that seems odd to me. It is kind of like expecting all humans to only have one hand. Now there may be a human or two that has only one hand - but all! Seems "unnatural". And, in any of those tests of e-liguids that vendors or New Zeal might have done, have never seen (-)- nic as the decription of what was found upon analysis. Again, thanks for the inquiry.
 
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