Using mixed herbal infusion tea, to reduce nicotine fixation ?

[exogenesis]

A pint (or 2) of strong infusion per day has me needing far less nicotine (and food),
and leaves me feeling generally mildly serene and calm, all for several hours after the drink.


I recently sort of accidentally got a set of dried 'herbs' meant for making herbal tea,
from a specialist on-line supplier, pretty cheap, lots of suppliers available.

Thought I might as well see what it tasted like, not expecting any effect whatsoever,
cos I don't believe in alternative medicines like homeopathy, herbal or possibly even acupuncture etc.


Can anyone else confirm this effect ?


1 pint tea =
1 teabag of standard tea (1)
2 teaspoons passion-flower (2)
2 teaspoons peppermint (3)
1 teaspoons skullcap (4)
1 or 2 teaspoons valerian (5)
1 teaspoons rhodiala (6)
2 or 3 large teaspoons of 'complete' honey (the cloudy stuff)
Some of milk.


Easy to do in a large 'herb-bag' tea-bag as sold by suppliers,
stewed for as long as possible in the 1 pint mug (before adding honey & milk obviously),
i.e. around 10 mins, with gentle squishing & stirring.


(1) PG tips for me (caffeine, eek)
(2) passiflora incarnata (for harmaline, harmine = MAOIs) - anti-anxiety
(3) mentha piperita (for taste) - digestive settler / aid (apparently)
(4) scutellaria latiflora (GABA :scutellein, baicalin = flavinoid) - mild sedative
(5) valeriana officinalis (alkaloids : actinidine, catinie, valerine +
GABAs?? + isovaltrate [sedative], valeric acid [mood stabiliser]) - anti-anxiety
(6) rhodiola rosea (glycosides + MOAIs ?: rosarin, rosin, salidroside) - stess relief, anti-depressant

Never felt so calm & in control of my nicotine habit (and appetite),
just goes to show : no expectations = very pleasant surprise when it works (so far).
Don't know if it'll last.

Don't actually feel I 'need' any medications of any of the above descriptions,
I think some on this forum do, in fact may be the main reason for their heavy nictoine intake (?)

Also going to add St John's Wort (capsules) - anti depressant, SSRI (hypercin in the hypericum perforatum mixture).


edit:
seems to be getting better, nicotine intake down by factor of at least 2,
at this rate might get to be less 'nicotine tolerant' & use it for recreation rather than need.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Heavy nicotine intaker here......So is it still workin' for ya, exo? Though you know my high regard for homeopathy, Ianan tried this route in the "Are we getting it..." thread, albeit a couple of different recipes, and generally didn't seem too helpful for him. I do hope all is well. Please update when ya can .

 

[exogenesis]

Yes, still working pretty well TV, definately reduced nic. intake, eating less,
feeling healthier and happier & less tense generally.

I think Ianan was trying for adding back in the 'what's missing' from using just nicotine,
I remember reading his tests & thinking nah, that'll never work for me - too 'alternative'.

I'm mainly snus-ing so nothings really 'missing' as such,
just getting a laugh out of this herb tea effect.


Probably going OCD on this cos extended the mix range to include
chamomile, bilberry, lemon-balm, devil-claw, cat-claw, yarrow, spearmint,
vervain & sage (won't post all the active ingredients).

Keeping ginseng, fever-few, gotu-kola, guarana & mate-tea on one side,
possible stimulants that clash with the others a bit.

Knocking back on the strength & amount though, cos I've heard rumours,
particularly about Valerian, don't wany to replace one addiction with another.

Got a bottle of 5HTP pills though - kin' expensive things.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Good to hear. So I take it no smokes?? Yeah, I've heard about the Valerian, not sure it's still available here. I tried the 5HTP pills and didn't really do much. Dose may have been too low, donno. I was sure in the pits back then though, so it wouldn't surprise me. Well, be sure to post results of your modified brew as well as snus usage (like you wouldn't track something ). This is interesting stuff .

 

[Debbie]

Have you tried Melatonin?

Debbie

 

[Madame Psychosis]

I believe (as I imagine you do too) in science-based medicine - a way of thinking and questioning based on plausibility and evidence - and unlike some alt-med modalities, herbs can have plausible mechanisms of action. So I don't think it's incompatible with your skepticism that you're getting an effect from your cuppa psychoactives. Glad to hear it's working so well!

A few of the herbs you mention have some clinical studies on their effectiveness as anti-anxiety medicines -- your supposedly shotgun approach actually winds up looking a bit more targeted than Ianan's. There are a few studies on MAOIs in smoking cessation so your addition of passionflower intrigues me.

I've got an herbalist in the family so I've been a guinea pig for a few of these - though mostly before I became a smoker, and rarely to any useful effect. I haven't tried passionflower but it's interesting b/c of the harmala alkaloids. Valerian and skullcap were a bit sedating. Rhodiola didn't have any effect. 300-400mg/day of 5-HTP for two months did nothing. (But I have it on good evidence that my brain often requires a battering ram where others respond to a knock on the door...)

In the interests of science you could try eliminating one by one and see how it changes the outcome. May find one or two that are mainly responsible for what you're feeling.

Just notes/thoughts/cautions in case you haven't run across them...
(Apologies if any of this runs into things you already read up on, exo - sounds like you've done research as well. Thought a few cautions might be useful to anyone considering these supplements too.)

Whatever you do, don't take 5-HTP and St. John's Wort together in therapeutic doses. You would be mixing a serotonin precursor with a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's like stopping up the bathtub drain and turning the faucet to full blast -- and the resulting overflow is Serotonin Syndrome, described by one unlucky friend as the "worst day of your life". (Wiki article here.) It's hard to predict where one individual's threshold will be for SS, but one general rule in psychopharmacology is never mix serotonin reuptake inhibitors, monoamine oxidase-A* inhibitors, and serotonin precursors with each other in any combination.

(Is there a risk to combining 5-HTP or SJW with passionflower's MAOIs? Dunno. The beta-carbolines like harmaline have some important differences in their action from the pharma MAOIs that make them a less potent interaction risk...it would seem to me. Countless people have safely taken SSRIs, for instance, while smoking and getting MAO inhibition from the beta-carbolines in tobacco. I imagine it's also a matter of dosage.)

I found this an interesting post about the clinical data on St. John's Wort. Never tried it, but it sounds like for mild mood issues it's certainly worth a try. (The only issues are finding a quality formulation in an unregulated market - a problem with all herbal medicines - and that SJW can cause a lot of liver-based drug interactions because it induces CYP3A4, an enzyme responsible for a lot of drugs' metabolism. So it'll reduce the effective dosage of many prescription drugs. But if you're not on any other medications the latter isn't a problem.)

5-HTP...is an odd supplement. Like I said, it had no effect on me. It does cross the blood-brain barrier but there are no high-quality clinical trials on it for anything. Yet I've certainly heard anecdotes from people who say it works for sleep and mood.
The idea of precursor loading (like 5-HTP or tryptophan for serotonin) seems to get some eye-rolling from medical professionals.
(In the past couple of years I've asked two acquaintances - a neuroscientist PhD/MD and a psychiatrist - about the usefulness of monoamine precursors like 5-HTP, and got the same screwy look each time.)
Their skepticism was partly because of the poor clinical evidence, and largely because of the general concept that the body is good at keeping homeostasis & regulating things like serotonin levels within a certain range. That is, you'd mostly excrete the extra "raw materials". Antidepressants go straight to that regulating mechanism (the 5-HT transporter or receptors) and tweak it for their effect.
(It's adding the two together -- taking extra precursors plus antidepressants that mess up the ability to eliminate/reuptake excess serotonin -- that gets dangerous.)

5-HTP is quite cheap in the States. It's SAM-e that I found very expensive (and actually rather effective on mood and energy, unlike some other pricey supps) when I was experimenting with these remedies.

Do keep us updated on your experiences.

(*To clarify: MAO-A is the MAO subtype that binds to serotonin, among other things - hence the specific concern with MAO-A inhibition here in terms of Serotonin Syndrome. One of the ways MAOIs can vary is in which subtype of MAO they bind to and inhibit. Harmaline is selective for MAO-A, for instance.

(I have nothing useful to contribute to the interesting and enlightening make-your-own-snus or grow-your-own-tobacco threads, so I might as well overdo it here, right? )

 

[exogenesis]

"mainly snus-ing" TV, meaning still having a few smokes a day, as I was without the herb tea,
the main nic. reduction is frequency of 'need' for realtively frequent nic-kick with thunder snus.

Maybe the 100mg 5HTP tabs were a waste of money then (for this use), but haven't tried yet.

Trying to put together a realistic list of possible infusion contents, using Dr Dukes database & others
Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases
but it's flippin complicated & there's almost too much info available around,
traditional stuff, annecdotal effects, medical, synergistic effects....

Melatonin, mainly an animal derivative Debbie ?, could put some brain tissue in the tea I guess ,
are you suggesting it cos you've read/heard/know of good experience with it ?
Looking around, it seems potent stuff, 0.3mg tabs seem to be the norm. for sleep disorders/antidepressive & other stuff.



Very thorough post as usual MP, I think your posts consistently have the greatest info content of any posts.

Thanks for the heads-up on the 5HTP & SSRIs in St John's Wort, was generally ware of that,
but could easily have casually taken a pill of each during this exploration,
probably in the rush to go to work one morning.
FeverFew maybe has serotonin release inhibition effects as well.
Not taking any prescription drugs, so no interference there.

Interesting SJW article, for me the 333 mg SJW 'extract' pills didn't have any extra striking effect over a few days,
but then I'm not (usually) prone to depression as such, & I'm slurping the brew at the same time anyway.

I'm reckoning (getting?) synergistic effects with the combinations, particularly PassionFlower & Valerian,
(and tea), possibly some of the others as well, possibly potentially with LemonBalm, and maybe the other
antianxiolystic/sedative ones skullcap, rodiola, devilsclaw.

I'd like to do a systematic testing approach, i.e. individual herbs, then combinations, trouble is
it'd all be very subjective & affected by external effects (amount of sleep, work stress, alcohol intake,
social stuff, weather, exercise etc etc), so would be somewhat difficult to correlate.
Maybe taking one formulation for a couple of weeks or months at a time might yield something useful?

SAM-e, will look out for that one, that's a sythesised pharmacuetical rather than natural occuring (in plants) ?

Certainly going to keep this up, just spent £100 on herb stock, and another £100+ on various 'infusion' equipment
(heated teapots, glass kettles, infuser cups etc) to get a convenient daily system going.

I think wherever you post you contribute usefully MP, this post was deliberately put in the back waters,
surprised anyone found it really
.
.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I'd like to do a systematic testing approach, i.e. individual herbs, then combinations, trouble is
it'd all be very subjective & affected by external effects (amount of sleep, work stress, alcohol intake,
social stuff, weather, exercise etc etc), so would be somewhat difficult to correlate.
Maybe taking one formulation for a couple of weeks or months at a time might yield something useful?

You're apparently a much more patient man than me, exo. I think time is a fairly large factor in finding success. I've found some things have to be in my system for 30 days or more before benefits are realized. Then there's the associated environmental effects . Smokes were sooo simple to use, and with predictable results! Good luck on this journey. You and Madame do make a good team and hopefully will have much correspondence. I'll sit back and observe .

 

[exogenesis]

Formulation steadying out at:

Using the below heaped teaspoons for 1 pint of herbal 'tea':

Passion Flower 2 or 3
Peppermint 1 or 2
Spearmint 1
Chamomile 2 or 3
Bilberries (ground) 0.5
Lemon Balm 1 or 2

honey & milk


Leaving out the root herbs like rhodiola, valerian cos too bitter, also leaving out
vervain, skullcap, yarrow, catsclaw, devilsclaw, feverfew, st johns wort
cos one of those gave me a bad reaction with alcohol.

Alcohol consumption down by a factor of 4, nicotine by at least 2 or 3,
food intake still reduced, sleeping very well (maybe not as deep as with the valerian included),
life is definately smoother (and cheaper).

Hope this keeps up & my body doesn't just re-adjust.

 

[AntoinRse14]

[FONT="][SIZE=3]It is possible to quit smoking with the use of the means that nature gives us. People have discovered that some herbs reduce nicotine addiction while others lower the urge to smoke in general. The use of the herb during the period of quitting helps fighting withdrawal symptoms.[/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=3]

[/SIZE] [FONT="]Herbs such as Lobelia, St. John Wort, and Valerian have been helpful in quitting smoking. A combination of orange juice and cream of tartar is said to help flush nicotine from your system, thereby reducing your cravings for it. Your cravings should subside more each day as more nicotine is flushed from your body. Mix one half teaspoon of cream of tartar (found in the spice section of your local grocery) in a glass of orange juice, and drink it right before bed each night.[/FONT]

[FONT="]Some natural substances can actually create a taste in your mouth which lessens your desire for a cigarette. When you find yourself wanting to smoke, try putting a drop of clove oil on your finger and applying it to the back of your tongue. (Clove oil can be found at most health food stores.)[/FONT]

 

[exogenesis]

Seems to be quite a lot of anecdotal stuff on the net for the cream of tatar thing,
wonder what the mechanism is for the supposed nicotine removal properties.
Just removing nicotine lessens nicotine craving?, seems conta-intuitive somehow.


Think I'd give lobelia a wide berth, apparently too easy to literally overdose if used casually,
probably that's true to a lesser extend of the other strongly active ones as well.

Didn't know about the clove oil thing, interesting.

Might go back to valerian, at smaller amount.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

"mainly snus-ing" TV, meaning still having a few smokes a day, as I was without the herb tea,
the main nic. reduction is frequency of 'need' for realtively frequent nic-kick with thunder snus.

So same # of cigarettes, less overall nicotine? Do cigarettes themselves feel any different in terms of satisfaction, etc on this cocktail?

I had a cigarette a few nights in a row this week, for the first time in about three weeks. I just realized this may be associated with an MAOI dose reduction in the days prior to it (long story).

Trying to put together a realistic list of possible infusion contents, using Dr Dukes database & others
Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Databases
but it's flippin complicated & there's almost too much info available around,
traditional stuff, annecdotal effects, medical, synergistic effects....

Interesting database - thanks for the link. Unknown concentration of active ingredients, disagreements among studies, and murky binding properties make it hard to get definitive answers...
(Dr. Duke makes me a little wary for a few reasons...not the least of which is the link on his page to an "alternative cancer treatment" site pushing things like homeopathy... On the other hand, when it comes to ethnobotanical data, you kinda have to take what you can find, since info can be so spotty.
PubMed or another academic medical database can help a lot too if there's any data out there - often better to search by the Latin species name.
Lots of 'anecdata' on Erowid.org in their Experience Reports, though those are often written by rather, uh, daring/stupid psychonauts.)

Looking around, it seems potent stuff, 0.3mg tabs seem to be the norm. for sleep disorders/antidepressive & other stuff.

You're right about the dosage; I only found out about that lately. Yet some shops in the US only sell 3+ mg melatonin pills; it can be hard to find anything under 1mg here.
People have this natural intuition that more = more effective but apparently too much can spill into the daylight hours (judging from studies in the blind and the elderly).

On melatonin, searches return a royal tonne of studies depending on your terms; kind of overwhelming...
Such as, one review says it doesn't really work. Then one said earlier (by some of the same authors) that it may work in phase-adjustment issues like circadian rhythm disorders or shift-work but not in primary insomnia. Ack.

I have a chronically delayed sleep phase (extreme night owl; generally pointing to delayed melatonin secretion) and after trying a good number of pharmaceutical sedatives, I've settled on melatonin for now - decently effective, no side effects. I take 1-2 mg. (Too much and I get morning sleepiness and very strange, vivid dreams - apparently not an uncommon effect.)

FeverFew maybe has serotonin release inhibition effects as well.
Not taking any prescription drugs, so no interference there.

Feverfew's a new one on me... Sounds right - parthenolide (one active compound) inhibits the release of 5HT (serotonin) which would be a different effect from the serotonin reuptake inhibitors...not sure if "inhibiting release" is the same as being a serotonin antagonist. This study gets more specific. If feverfew blockades (antagonizes) 5HT2A, that's interesting...but the language in these studies is kinda fuzzy.
Also some impact on platelet aggregation/blood flow, which could explain its use in headaches/migraines.

Interesting SJW article, for me the 333 mg SJW 'extract' pills didn't have any extra striking effect over a few days

SSRIs, including St. John's Wort, take up to 4-6 weeks for their effects to be felt, if they are felt at all. The "serotonin lag" or "Prozac lag" is actually one of the odd mysteries of psychopharm, since it's been shown that SSRIs (they studied fluoxetine/Prozac) boost serotonin within a few hours, but antidepressant effects are not felt for weeks.
(There is a pretty interesting news article from 2008 about this phenomenon and why it shows antidepressants may not work the way we think they do.)
But that's all kind of theoretical and skippable if depression isn't the problem.

SAM-e, will look out for that one, that's a sythesised pharmacuetical rather than natural occuring (in plants) ?

It is - it's not even a standard sort of mood supplement, it's a methyl donor, and I don't really understand how it works. Apparently it improves the production of serotonin and dopamine (the latter would explain why it's energizing and can suppress appetite).
There are a handful of mostly European studies on it, nothing huge, but mildly positive. Like some antidepressants, it can induce mania in people with bipolar disorder (I've heard several anecdotes); so it does mess with something. I know one person who takes it for seasonal affective disorder (winter blues). The effects can be felt starting the first day or two (I found), which is useful.
(The problem with SAM-e, aside from the expense, is that apparently it degrades quickly with exposure to air and light, so the pills in bottles are useless. At least, I've heard this from a couple of sources. Used the kind in blister packs myself.)
This is another one that shouldn't be combined with SSRIs or St. John's Wort, apparently.

I think wherever you post you contribute usefully MP, this post was deliberately put in the back waters,
surprised anyone found it really

I'm just a rank amateur who reads a lot...but you made me blush.
Some of us creatures thrive in backwaters ...

[FONT="]A combination of orange juice and cream of tartar is said to help flush nicotine from your system, thereby reducing your cravings for it. Your cravings should subside more each day as more nicotine is flushed from your body. Mix one half teaspoon of cream of tartar (found in the spice section of your local grocery) in a glass of orange juice, and drink it right before bed each night.[/FONT]

Do you know the potential mechanism of action for this one? I mean, flushing a drug from the system and reducing cravings are two totally different actions (though I remember seeing one study of glucose tablets to reduce tobacco cravings somewhere...so hey, orange juice...).
Cream of tartar (potassium bitartrate) turns up a few studies from the early 20th century as a "diuretic", it seems, nothing really newer...

(To speed up nicotine/cotinine metabolism through the body - though I have no idea why one would want this - you could theoretically consume a CYP2A6 inducer, but the classic 2A6 inducers are the barbiturates, phenobarbital etc., which is neat...if you want a rock-star death.)

Yeah...I stay away from lobelia. The clinical data on it seems to vary from 'useless' to 'dangerous'.

Do keep us posted, exo.

 

[exogenesis]

Wow, detailed post there MP, feels like having an online medical researcher / therapist

Cigs do seem to be a little more satisfying, but really not very much effect apart from causing coughing,
still get something 'more' if I have one first thing in the morning.

Strangely Thunder Frosted snus are significantly less satisfying than they were,
almost feels like regular dosing with all the stuff (alkaloids, glycosides etc etc)
from the infusion are acting as a suppressant for effects of nic. over a certain amount.

Maybe they're acting as nicotine replacements, or I'm getting all the MAOI-like effects I
need from the infusion & the snus don't add much (if any).
Maybe I'll try vaping pure-nicotine e-liquid again, see if it 'sticks' this time.


Didn't realise there was a commercial aspect to the Duke's database, seems up-font
detailed info on the face of it, if a little too comprehensive.
Thanks for the Erowid.org link, good site, although there's a different emphasis as you said.

Melatonin sounds specific to sleeping disorders, glad it works for your 'owl',
I tend(ed) to be similar, but by choice (doing computer stuff into the early morning)
not due to imbalance of any sort. This infusion lets me curb that habit very easily now
(mostly the valerian I guess).

A little confused about the Feverfew action, 5HTP inhibition vs seratonin reuptake inhibition,
don't like the phrase 'irreversibly blocked' receptors in that study you linked.
But was interested by 'Feverfew powder was more effective than any of its extracts or pure parthenolide',
I'm thinking this is true of some of the other herbs, i.e. just the pure 'known active' components are
not the whole story by a long shot.

Me not go near Prozac, no way, or any of the super-strong pills,
still wary of even the SJW extract pills.


On more mundane notes:

Got rid of the milk, tastes much better without it, didn't realise how much the
spearmint/lemony/mint & bilberry flavours were being muted by the milk.

And thinking of drinking 50% or 100% extra (so 4½ to 6 pints per day) at half the 'concentration',
to make up for the water volume of 4 cans of beer I was drinking every evening,
even though all that regular alcohol was diuretic.

Smaller amounts of food still seem very satisfying, wondering if I'm suddenly going to binge one day
to make up for it.

Life is definately still calmer than before this experiment,
far less frequently getting annoyed with inanimate objects & events,
I've even stopped punching the computer sceen

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Life is definately still calmer than before this experiment,
far less frequently getting annoyed with inanimate objects & events,
I've even stopped punching the computer sceen

If it punches back, it may be time to ease-up on the herbs .

Can't understand 89% (mostly MP ), but this is quite good stuff..I think.

 

[exogenesis]

I'm not using those sort of 'herbs' TV


Nicotine needs are definately on the up after reducing the amount of valerian,
think that's the effective one (it's got the most alkaloids after all).


Think I'll start trying a Valerian powder in honey 'sweet' at bed time,
won't spoil the nice minty tea with bitterness that way.

 

[exogenesis]

Yep, it's definately the Valerian that does the work.

"alkaloids : actinidine, catinie, valerine +
GABAs?? + isovaltrate [sedative], valeric acid [mood stabiliser]) - anti-anxiety"

Trouble is it make me 'dumb' = short term memory suppresion, bit sleepy, but pleasantly peaceful.

Think there's a balance point, only use a bedtime, and not to much.

Still enjoying the mixed herbal tea anyway, very nice with added ordinary tea as well.

Think that's probably the end of this thread, unless there's anyone with info to share.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Ahem.....Started taking SAM-e yesterday. Snus does indeed provide all the calm I need, as well as nicotine needs. Anxiety is controlled very well, but the symptoms of depression have increased in the past couple months. The biggies are very little to no motivation/interests and bouts of confusion during mechanical tasks. My job requires that I thoroughly assess situations, acknowledge dangers and act as swiftly as possible. Although I normally mentally walk through each step of a process to avoid "instictive reactions" before I act, it also normally takes anywhere from a fraction to a few seconds. Now it seems to take a much forced effort and not all conclusions are drawn before I act, due to time constraints. For a while now I've felt much, if not all, goes back to dopamin/seratonin. I've always had a passion for everything I do, even things I don't wanna do...if that makes sense. Seeing something done as well as it can be done has always been what drives me to do anything. These days I just don't have passion for anything, even posting on the forum. Obviously, the problem is getting worse . Yesterday I got some SAM-e tablets (200mg). Directions show suggested use is 2 per day (400mg). Being my own shrink at this point I've started with 4 per day (800mg) to get it in my system and if possitive results are found in coming days (up to 2 weeks) I'll go up or down from there. Snus is my only other suppliment so this stuff will stand on its own for success or failure. I'll update when I feel like it.....

 

[exogenesis]

Hopin' SAM-e works out for you TV

can I suggest you get some dried valerium-herb root & grind some & try partaking
(tea, homemade-pill or whatever mode) ?,
don't overdo it though,
you might be surprised, it certainly did me.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Velarium may be something I look into in the future if sleep continues to be a problem, but I'm afraid at this point it'd be more apt to dull me further.

5 days in with the SAM-e and no effects of any kind. Been doing some reading and vitamin B is strongly recommended. Some brands of SAM-e include vitamin B, but I opted for one without. Probably a mistake, so today I've also included a supplement of B-12 complex in liquid form.

Supplement Facts:

Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid) 20mg 33% RDA
Thiamine (from Thiamine HCI) (Vit. B-1) 0.6mg 40% RDA
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 1.7mg 100% RDA
Niacin (as Niacinamide) (Flush-Free) 20mg 100% RDA
Vitamin B-6 (from Pyridoxine HCI) 2mg 100% RDA
Folic Acid 200mg 50% RDA
Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin)** 1.0mg 16,667% RDA
Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B-5) 30mg 300% RDA
Stevia rebaudiana extract (min. 80% Rebaudioside-A) 2mg n/a RDA

**This B-12 amount is equivalent to the normal injectionable B-12 dose

So, we'll see how this goes.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

1 week on SAM-e and 3 days into the additional B-12 complex and mood seems to be somewhat elevated, concentration is much improved. Getting out of bed is still unwelcome, but sleep comes easier. I have no idea how much is SAM-e effect and how much comes from a probable vitamin B deficiency. Studies show SAM-e accumulates in the system over time and it's normal to have to decrease dosage at some point to ward off the onset of anxiety, racing mind and sleeplessness. Although I'm inclined to go full steam ahead until these symptoms rear their ugly heads, I'm taking a more conservative approach and have reduced my original 800mg dose down to 600 mg and hold there for a little bit. Therapeutic doses for depression are for 800-1600mg, but they're all short term (6 weeks). By what I've read and the fact that I've been on 800mg/day for a week and only show mild improvement overall, I say I'm on the low end @ 600mg for any therapeutic effects. Time will tell, but I think it's best to stay conservative and try to avoid a situation that resembles a ball in a pinball game.