Good luck!
Whatever you do, DO NOT blow huge clouds of vapor into the faces of the council members
Yes, no vaping. The only people allowed to blow smoke at these meetings sit on the other side of the discussion.
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Urgent TONIGHT! South San Francisco to impose "urgency moratorium" on a variety of e-cig businesses
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Yes, no vaping. The only people allowed to blow smoke at these meetings sit on the other side of the discussion.
Just wanted to add my 2C - well done to everyone who turned up or wrote in to the council members.
Scores of battles like this have been won across America, so don't be disheartened when a few biggies like New York get lost. All action is important and more often than not has impact.
Also, for those who have not yet done so, please do sign up as members of CASAA.
Scores of battles like this have been won across America, so don't be disheartened when a few biggies like New York get lost. All action is important and more often than not has impact.
Also, for those who have not yet done so, please do sign up as members of CASAA.
Gotta say, I'm pleasantly surprised. I expected a slam-dunk for the crusaders, and we actually came out with a good compromise on the situation. My thanks to everyone that participated in any way on this effort. I may have had my faith in the processes renewed a tiny bit today.
The next battle will be in about 2 months then, convincing the council that the moratorium has had no impact on anything, and is in fact, unneeded. I think if there is a similar outpouring of testimonials, we stand a chance in that. Another great step would be to have business owners on board, stating that they have had issues with a no-vape zone, and they wish it was the other way. Money talks, and no one generates money for the government like businesses.
In fact, I think that is a big part of the fight we have missed so far; we should be campaigning not only to the officials. I believe that we should be approaching business owners and getting the ones that have positives to comment in these meeting, about how vaping is better than having people in and out the doors 5 times a pitcher to go burn one. Let the tax dollars speak for their own green selves.
The next battle will be in about 2 months then, convincing the council that the moratorium has had no impact on anything, and is in fact, unneeded. I think if there is a similar outpouring of testimonials, we stand a chance in that. Another great step would be to have business owners on board, stating that they have had issues with a no-vape zone, and they wish it was the other way. Money talks, and no one generates money for the government like businesses.
In fact, I think that is a big part of the fight we have missed so far; we should be campaigning not only to the officials. I believe that we should be approaching business owners and getting the ones that have positives to comment in these meeting, about how vaping is better than having people in and out the doors 5 times a pitcher to go burn one. Let the tax dollars speak for their own green selves.
Wow, thanks so much for going!
We need to be careful. The law about "lounges" is part of a movement started in Union City by the ALA and a bunch of teenagers who purchase cigs, cigars, and ecigs with the police. Good for them, but they are brainwashed into thinking this is Big Tobacco trying to kill their friends.
The Moratoriam was followed by an ordinance submitted to the planning commission defining a vapor lounge as ANYWHERE that lets them demo the products at the site. So no teaching, no flavor sampling. This was part of a bigger law to outlaw medical "lounges" also, but the point is they left themselves the ability to prevent teaching and sampling, so this needs followup.
The irony here is that allows the convenience stores and gas stations where the kids DID get away with purchasing ecig, but outlaws or at least seriously cripples the vapor stores that always card and are serious vendors. (In Union City)
I am very curious -- what was the "urgency" here?
We need to be careful. The law about "lounges" is part of a movement started in Union City by the ALA and a bunch of teenagers who purchase cigs, cigars, and ecigs with the police. Good for them, but they are brainwashed into thinking this is Big Tobacco trying to kill their friends.
The Moratoriam was followed by an ordinance submitted to the planning commission defining a vapor lounge as ANYWHERE that lets them demo the products at the site. So no teaching, no flavor sampling. This was part of a bigger law to outlaw medical "lounges" also, but the point is they left themselves the ability to prevent teaching and sampling, so this needs followup.
The irony here is that allows the convenience stores and gas stations where the kids DID get away with purchasing ecig, but outlaws or at least seriously cripples the vapor stores that always card and are serious vendors. (In Union City)
I am very curious -- what was the "urgency" here?
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Well, in the morning the "urgency" is usually in school...
At least one would hope so.
Although I often was not.
And late at night the "urgency" is usually in bed...
At least one would hope so.
Although I often was not.
In between those times, the "urgency" can often be harder to find.
Good luck!
Whatever you do, DO NOT blow huge clouds of vapor into the faces of the council members
Well that just may be what they need to see it is not tobacco.....
They didn't really explain what the "urgency" was...or maybe I didn't hear it?
And thanks for all the kind words, everyone. It was my pleasure to attend and do my part. I would've felt awful if I hadn't gone.
that's great news!! Thanks so much for going & also for updating us here.
+ 2 from me.
Thanks very much.
It is very, Very Refreshing to Read something when the Process Works. This is how Representation thru Elected Officials is Supposed to Work.
Keep up the Involvement. Don't become Complacent with a Partial Victory. And be willing to Discuss Issues involving Compromises.
after speaking to my sister in law last night it seems this moratorium was brought in after complaints of a hookah bar had some unsavory element going on with it and of course one of their biggest sellers at unsaid location was electronic cigarettes and accessories. seems like a witch hunt to me and my sis agrees .
Received a response to my e-mail which was copied to all Council Members;
" Thank you for your comments below. Given your interest in the issue, I thought you might like to know that the City Council adopted an amended urgency moratorium on the establishment of new e-cigarette lounges and hookah bars/smoking bars, but removed any reference to e-cigarette retailers. The moratorium will last for 45 days after which the City Council may take further action to extend the moratorium. If you are interested in being placed on a list to receive notice of upcoming agendas where this matter will be again considered, please contact the Deputy City Clerk, Anna Brown, (anna.brown@ssf.net) and ask her to add you to the list. Thank you again for providing us with your comments "
I responded back thanking them all for making the right decision.
" Thank you for your comments below. Given your interest in the issue, I thought you might like to know that the City Council adopted an amended urgency moratorium on the establishment of new e-cigarette lounges and hookah bars/smoking bars, but removed any reference to e-cigarette retailers. The moratorium will last for 45 days after which the City Council may take further action to extend the moratorium. If you are interested in being placed on a list to receive notice of upcoming agendas where this matter will be again considered, please contact the Deputy City Clerk, Anna Brown, (anna.brown@ssf.net) and ask her to add you to the list. Thank you again for providing us with your comments "
I responded back thanking them all for making the right decision.
Look for a group of teenagers from Hayward and their ALA advisor to show up at some point in the intermediate future.
I received the same email. It's refreshing to see helpful and courteous response to our concern! This is by far a thumbs up group. Let's hope they follow up & read the studies.
We might need the comparison examples, like P.OPUS gave in that Myth thread. It's easy to relate to, easy to understand. Are there any math geniuses who can double check the accuracy of his calculations before we submit such analogies?
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-discussion/508446-myth-second-hand-vape.html
San Mateo County Times : South San Francisco enacts moratorium on e-cigarette lounges
Link to the story in the local paper.
Link to the story in the local paper.
There's too much arithmetic in there for me before my morning coffee, but I'd just go ahead and use it anyway, we know it's roughly true and anybody who finds a math mistake is likely to find that you have to eat fries AND tomatoes in a week to get an equivalent amount of nic. Let them present THEIR numbers.
Here's what's missing from the above analogy, big-time: nicotine is NOT a persistent poison. No more than caffeine. There are chemicals where tiny exposures over a long time does cumulative damage. Nicotine is not one of them. As with caffeine, even an overdose that sends you to the hospital (extremely rare) IF you live, you will be as good as if you'd never overdosed, unless you had a stroke or something during the episode. The problem is that many pesticides ARE persistent, so when you say "pesticide" people think cumulative harm. But you can use soap and water as a pesticide also, should we wash our hands less often? It DEPENDS on the chemical, and nicotine is a short-acting poison.
The real issue is the question of whether or not vapor bars should be treated like coffee shops or neighborhood bars -- no need to make a special "thing" out of them because of nicotine, the question is, where do you want the parking problems? Treat it like any other place that has seating for X number of people when zoning.
Kristin (I think?) brought up something valid during last night's CASAA meeting: cities may want to avoid what happened in Bountiful, Utah, where they gave permits to 4 stores then found out the locations of the stores violated Utah state law. AFTER people had sunk $100K+ into remodeling and 5-year leases.
Do I think that is what South City is worried about? Well, considering how close the wording and complaints are to Union City, which was the result of very activist ANTZ and which those same folks specifically SAID they were going to spread around the Bay Area, I suspect we're looking at someone that wants to prevent teaching and sampling. But the cities don't know that.
Here's what's missing from the above analogy, big-time: nicotine is NOT a persistent poison. No more than caffeine. There are chemicals where tiny exposures over a long time does cumulative damage. Nicotine is not one of them. As with caffeine, even an overdose that sends you to the hospital (extremely rare) IF you live, you will be as good as if you'd never overdosed, unless you had a stroke or something during the episode. The problem is that many pesticides ARE persistent, so when you say "pesticide" people think cumulative harm. But you can use soap and water as a pesticide also, should we wash our hands less often? It DEPENDS on the chemical, and nicotine is a short-acting poison.
The real issue is the question of whether or not vapor bars should be treated like coffee shops or neighborhood bars -- no need to make a special "thing" out of them because of nicotine, the question is, where do you want the parking problems? Treat it like any other place that has seating for X number of people when zoning.
Kristin (I think?) brought up something valid during last night's CASAA meeting: cities may want to avoid what happened in Bountiful, Utah, where they gave permits to 4 stores then found out the locations of the stores violated Utah state law. AFTER people had sunk $100K+ into remodeling and 5-year leases.
Do I think that is what South City is worried about? Well, considering how close the wording and complaints are to Union City, which was the result of very activist ANTZ and which those same folks specifically SAID they were going to spread around the Bay Area, I suspect we're looking at someone that wants to prevent teaching and sampling. But the cities don't know that.
He used the worst case scenario, the scenarios that non-educated ANTZ like to visualize for their crusade. The ANTZ use ridiculous scenarios as their gospel, so p.opus did the math with those ridiculous scenarios. The room was non-ventilated. The nicotine that we know is safe, was labeled as scarey, just for the sake of argument only. The Vaper avgs 3-6ml per day, depending on the atomizer, but the stronger the atomizer, the less mg is used, so I feel it can still be rounded to 3ml per day. His crazy scenario did the worst case scenario that ANTZ love to fear monger with, & used 1ml per HOUR lol. Can you imagine? Lol. Anyway, the important part, was that even with such ridiculous assumptions, the harm numbers came out completely insignificant.
I hope he does another calculation, using real life scenarios. Vented room, 3ml per day, etc.
EddardinWinter shares how decent ventilation works, the air exchange per 20 minutes, etc, which clearly shows it would be next to impossible to be of any concern.
Thanks for validating the math!
When we present the analogy, it needs to be accompanied by the statement that nicotine acts like caffeine in the body, there is no long-term harm form exposure. You can overdose (NOT second-hand) but you can't get slowly poisoned by nicotine. Because people keep thinking nicotine == pesticide == persistent poison and that is their other big unconscious assumption. On the thread where he posted that, even another VAPER kept saying what about the waitresses after 30 years of working there. We need to say that waitresses have been exposed to coffee fumes for 30 years without taking harm.
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