The Myth of the 30 Amp Battery

[Arnie H]

Thanks for the responses. Safety and/or redundancy is not a bad thing of course. Personally I only use high quality protected cells. My 3600 mAh Orbtronics were pricey (over 20 bucks each), but according to the specs they can handle up to 7 amps before the protection circuit cuts in. reviews and tests of the orbtronic batteries have generally been positive, and I think the combination of the use the panasonic cells with a very good (in my experience) protection circuit, is great.

But I am a "capacity hound" and low power vaper. I've never vaped below 1.5 ohms because of the batteries I use. Since I use powerbanks and mech mods, I feel if your gonna carry about something that resembles a box, a small brick, a flashlight, or a sex toy (forgive my language), might as well get all the capacity ya can from it. 18650, 26650, etc. Others folks are "intensity vapers" and thats cool. Everyone has there own thing.

Test of Orbtronic 18650 3600mAh (Black)

 

[LDS714]

Holy CRAP, dude, you just solved all of our legal issues! We're not using e-cigarettes, just portable fog machines !!!

Already been done!

 

[edyle]

Thanks for the responses. Safety and/or redundancy is not a bad thing of course. Personally I only use high quality protected cells. My 3600 mAh Orbtronics were pricey (over 20 bucks each), but according to the specs they can handle up to 7 amps before the protection circuit cuts in. Reviews and tests of the orbtronic batteries have generally been positive, and I think the combination of the use the panasonic cells with a very good (in my experience) protection circuit, is great.

But I am a "capacity hound" and low power vaper. I've never vaped below 1.5 ohms because of the batteries I use. Since I use powerbanks and mech mods, I feel if your gonna carry about something that resembles a box, a small brick, a flashlight, or a sex toy (forgive my language), might as well get all the capacity ya can from it. 18650, 26650, etc. Others folks are "intensity vapers" and thats cool. Everyone has there own thing.

Test of Orbtronic 18650 3600mAh (Black)

From what I usually read around here, it's supposed to be better to use
the safe chemistry (unprotected) AW IMR batteries, than the
"protected" unsafe chemistry batteries.

Apparently "protected" is just marketing speech to twist a negative to a positive-sounding thing.
The safe chemistry batteries don't come with protection circuitry added on, because they don't need them.
Protection circuits are added onto unsafe chemistry batteries and marketed as 'protected' .

 

[Zamazam]

Not true*.

*depending on the battery. Sony VTC4's are designed to continuously discharge at a 30A rating. It has a separate pulse rating, generally given as around 60 Amps. This is because they are designed for applications requiring high discharge (tactical flashlights, laptop computers, and even UPS systems). I work with people who have designed tactical systems using 18650 batteries, it is amazing what you can power with enough of these bad boys.

I don't mean to nitpick, but can you name me one tactical flashlight or application that uses 30 Amperes constant draw from a battery form factor like the 18650? I have a 2mm Candlepower Xenon fired tactical spotlight which uses 4 18650's in parallel, The switch is rated for 15 amps.

 

[beckdg]

So how do I find the resistance inside my batteries?

one way is by hooking them up to any respectable hobby grade multi-chemistry charger. navigate the menu to find cell IR or pack IR functions and hit the go button. then hit the go button again once the charger beeps confirming the settings you input were correct for the battery you're checking.

even this "chinese crap" charger will do it...

You can calculate it from voltage drop; if you see a 10% voltage drop under load, then your internal resistance is 10% your load resistance.

that is extremely far from reliable.

how am i supposed to know when my battery is too low?

check your batteries often when using them in a mech and get to know their characteristics.

i find i replace mine with fresh charged cells long before they're "low" just on vapor production alone.

 

[beckdg]

combined in last post.

 

[John_]

All I see these days are ads for 30 or 35 amp batteries. And I ask myself, does the average vaper need this much amperage?

Plugging these figures into an ohm law calculator, we find when vaping at 1.8 ohms on a freshly charged battery at 4.20 volts, the current draw is only around 2.33 amps and less than 10 watts of power. And this current requirement (when using a mech mod) will only go down as the battery drains.

Obviously sub ohm resistances will require more, but even a .22 ohm build at 4.20 volts is only around 21 amps.

Any thoughts on this?

At the max you want to go to 80% of the battery's rating for continuous discharge, on a 30A battery that'd be 24. Now 30A batteries can discharge at 30A safely but the chances that something catastrophic will happen increase as you near the battery's limit. If these batteries were running in a sealed enclosure far away from your face then discharge them at 30A all you like. Since we have these batteries so close to fragile parts of our bodies (face, fingers, etc...) we don't want to push them to their limits so we need batteries that have a much higher limit than what we need.

 

[Arnie H]

From what I usually read around here, it's supposed to be better to use
the safe chemistry (unprotected) AW IMR batteries, than the
"protected" unsafe chemistry batteries.

Apparently "protected" is just marketing speech to twist a negative to a positive-sounding thing.
The safe chemistry batteries don't come with protection circuitry added on, because they don't need them.
Protection circuits are added onto unsafe chemistry batteries and marketed as 'protected' .

Interesting point. Seems the "marketing" can be spun either way. So called "safe chemistry batteries" can and do fail and arguments could be made as to which is really safer/safest. I tend to be contrarian in my thinking. Just because we are inundated by advertisements for 30 amp and higher batteries, doesn't mean every vaper needs such a battery.

Just because copper mods are all the rage these days, doesn't mean I need one (though I will probably buy one, darn marketing! hehe).

Hybrid mods were in "vogue" as well at one point. Does it mean I need one?

Etc, etc.

Here's some info also available on ECF (though it may be outdated):

Shorting out a safer-chemistry battery in the pocket or purse can create a fire.
These batteries can supply tens of amps when short-circuited - there is one that can deliver 70 amps.
YOU MUST SWITCH OFF YOUR ECIG USING A MASTER SWITCH OR REMOVE THE CARTO, when putting it away in a purse or pocket.

 

[WattWick]

This discussion would have made more sense a little while back when capacity and discharge rating were more mutually exclusive. If you stick to IMR/hybrid chemistry (which you probably should), you can either have a ~10A 2.900 mah battery (panasonic PF) or you can have a 30-35A 2.500 mah battery. The latter may even give you a good vape longer in a mech. It's not all about capacity. It's also about efficiency and voltage drop. Less internal resistance; more power to the people... err... coil.

 

[K_Tech]

Two batteries, and some (sort of) made-up numbers:

Both batteries are fully charged, off the same charger. They are being used to supply a .42 ohm coil in an RDA.

Battery one - 10 amp rating, battery two - 30 amp rating.

Put battery one in the mech, hit the button, voltage immediately sags to 3.4 volts.

With battery two, voltage only drops to 3.73 volts and manages to hang there (given appropriate rests in between vapes) for about two or three hours of vaping.

THAT is why I like very high drain batteries.

The same goes for batteries in a DNA mod. While both batteries are capable of supplying the DNA board, the voltage sag of the lower rated battery will make it a poorer candidate for low ohm/high power applications.

 

[KenD]

A point to note is that higher-amp batteries usually have better discharge curves, even at lower amp draws. That means that you'll get more battery life in the useful 4.2-3.6v region. For example, at 2-3 amps a 2500 mAh Sony vtc4 will give you more battery life at 4.2 to 3.6v than a 2900 mAh Panasonic PD/PF. I have several of the Panasonics but will only get high amp batteries from now on, even though I rarely go lower than 0.8 ohms (and still use my Innokin SVD from time to time).

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[Stosh]

Interesting point. Seems the "marketing" can be spun either way. So called "safe chemistry batteries" can and do fail and arguments could be made as to which is really safer/safest. I tend to be contrarian in my thinking. Just because we are inundated by advertisements for 30 amp and higher batteries, doesn't mean every vaper needs such a battery...

The big difference between ICR and IMR batteries is when they go into thermal runaway. The ICR will produce flames, the IMR due to their chemistry do not produce flames. If I put it into my pocket next to my (ahem, you know) I'll go with no flames.

As you say 30 amp might be for everyone, I will use 10 amp batteries at times but never go over or even close to 5 amp draw on them. For me a 30 amp would be nice but overkill, only because I know the amps my vaping requires is far less than 1/2 the capacity of the lower rated batteries I use.

 

[icemanistheking]

So you've got a truck to drive from one town to another town but to do that you got to cross bridges;
The truck is a 2 ton truck.
You find 3 possible routes
1: one has a bridge rated max 1 ton
2: another route has a bridge rated max 2 tons
3: the third route has a bridge rated max 3 tons.

Which bridge do you take?
Well if you take the 1 ton bridge you're probably gonna end up dead or in jail.
If you take the second bridge you're gonna be driving reeeeel slow over that bridge hoping to get accross in one piece.
Or you take the long way, go over the hill, takes twice as long, costs more in fuel, but you get over the big 3 ton bridge with no worries, no mishap, no lawsuit

Right, but the thing is, most of your Efest high drain IMRs at least have a C rating of 8-10 I believe (at work, don't have my battery chart in front of me) - so the buffer is already there without using a $20 35-amp battery Using a 30-35 amp battery for normal vaping is just a waste of money, and limiting yourself to shorter battery life for no reason.

 

[Baditude]

Early on in vaping we only had LiPo and ICR batteries. LiPo didn't have the voltage capacity we needed, and ICR batteries were a flamable chemistry but had the voltage capacity we needed. So protection circuits were included in the ICR batteries to make them "safer". But be careful should that IC fail.

Along came IMR (Li-Mn) batteries. Technology added nickle or manganese to make them safe chemistry, high drain capable, with lower resistance. All good things. A little mAh capacity was lost in the process.

Now we have hybrid batteries which give us safe chemistry, high drain, low resistance, and higher mah capacity in one battery.

 

[beckdg]

Right, but the thing is, most of your Efest high drain IMRs at least have a C rating of 8-10 I believe (at work, don't have my battery chart in front of me) - so the buffer is already there without using a $20 35-amp battery Using a 30-35 amp battery for normal vaping is just a waste of money, and limiting yourself to shorter battery life for no reason.

except for a few little details.

the price of a panny 2900 or 3600 mah (10 amp and under 7 amp respectively) cell is about the same price as a sony vtc4, vtc5 or aw 1600 mah 18650.

the voltage drop of those higher capacity cells even at less than 1/4 of their rated output lowers their actual run time to less than at least 2 of those 3 higher output cells at the same price.

the best capacity out of a 30 amp battery on the market currently could be had for $10 per cell plus shipping... Sony VTC5 18650 30A 2600 mAh IMR Battery

 

[Traver]

I wish people would use the word safer instead of safe. Safe gives the wrong impression to vapors who are not knowledgeable about batteries. There is no such thing as a safe lithium battery.

 

[PapaGeno21]

A point to note is that higher-amp batteries usually have better discharge curves, even at lower amp draws. That means that you'll get more battery life in the useful 4.2-3.6v region. For example, at 2-3 amps a 2500 mAh Sony vtc4 will give you more battery life at 4.2 to 3.6v than a 2900 mAh Panasonic PD/PF. I have several of the Panasonics but will only get high amp batteries from now on, even though I rarely go lower than 0.8 ohms (and still use my Innokin SVD from time to time).

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

This! This is why I have converted to all high amp batts even though my daily kayfuns are at 1.2 ohms.

 

[Arnie H]

Since I use mostly mechs, I find the Orbies (protected cells) to be just easier to deal with for me. No guesswork is needed, no need for a vape safe fuse or a klck (though I have used them with a fuse as well). I don't have to test the battery or take it out of the mod to prevent over-discharging or short circuits. The PCB shuts the cell down when necessary. And if I need to reset a tripped protection circuit, a second or two in the charger does the trick. Not saying that protection circuits cannot fail, they can, but generally this has occurred with lower quality brands. And unlike the many "fire" brands, the cells have very near the stated capacity. Though not all of the "fire" brands are terrible either.

Another example of how I tend to be, or seem to me to be contrary on vaping matters has to do with airflow. I am constantly hearing about folks drilling out the airholes (and in at least one case, drilling a hole in their hand) on their RBA/RDAs and what have you. They say the holes are just too tiny. 3mm, 3,5mm, 4mm and so on is necessary. But for me its the exact opposite, I am constantly covering up or partially closing airflow on my devices. I like a very tight/stiff draw. Too airy, and it feels like I am sucking on hollow reed. Guess this shows all vapers are different. But all the stuff I see to the contrary makes me feel like a relic of some bygone age.

Remember that scene in the first Hunger Games movie (if you saw it) where the participants are on their marks, waiting for the countdown to end. Everyone's focused on that pile of supplies and/or weapons/goodies. They are set on getting there first. But the young man from Katniss Everdeen's district runs in the complete opposite direction of everyone else, towards the woods and away from the mad scramble and carnage which then followed. Is it best to always follow majority/popular opinion?

 

[ADLinATL]

Have you all seen the 18650 tests done by Z Vapor? It's pretty interesting. Apparently, the Efest purple 35 amp batts are actually 20 amp. Can we sue Efest?

 

[Baditude]

Have you all seen the 18650 tests done by Z Vapor? It's pretty interesting. Apparently, the Efest purple 35 amp batts are actually 20 amp. Can we sue Efest?

That's not surprising to me at all. As I have said elsewhere on this forum, in my research into batteries I found wildly inconsistant data on Efest battery specifications. I truly believe that they intentionally overstate their battery specifications merely to encourage sales. Subsequent independent bench testing of their batteries often proves that the advertised specs leave much to be desired.

I know many use and like Efest batteries, but I personally have a hard time recommending them.