Supply and demand in the e-cig market

[bjannr]

Nothing is worth more than someone is willing to pay for it. What might be priceless to me, could be worth only pennies to someone else. I have gotten good buys on the classifieds, and depending on how badly or quickly I wanted something I paid more than the original price. It is an individual thing. I myself if I listed something on the classifieds would ask below original price. Now if someone wanted something I did not want to sell than my price would be higher. We deal in horses and everything has its price. That is why I would ask $5G for an old Standardbred when I knew he wasn't worth more than $500, but to me he was priceless. He never did sell.

 

[mostapha]

I would venture to say that the Provari would still of coarse be popular, but it would not be the staple that it is today, if it were not so readily available.

I've been thinking that lately as well. Despite hating the one-button UI, I could see owning a Provari at some point……but there's no way I'd ever hold it up next to a Kicked Empire. The Provari is just good. Very good; but still just good. The Empire is gorgeous. And, no, I don't know why it struck me like that. I wanted one as soon as I saw it in one of GG's videos. I'm not ready to do it now, but when I am……if it costs $300, is the color I want, is in good shape and has been treated well, and is available……fine. I'd rather buy it at $120……just like I'd rather pay $3 than $40k for the same 3-series. But that may not be in the cards.

That is why I would ask $5G for an old Standardbred when I knew he wasn't worth more than $500, but to me he was priceless. He never did sell.

Agreed…wholeheartedly. Also, I had no idea "normal" horses were that cheap. The only people I know who talk about prices breed award-winning Arabians. I also can't imagine selling a pet and would be much more likely to give one away to someone I knew loved him/her than take any amount of money. But I get that horses are somehow different for a lot of people for some reason.

I won't sell my sl-1200mk2s (nice dj turntables originally made in the 70s) unless the buyer is going to give me enough money to immediately go out and buy a pair of sl-1210m5gs (newer version…still discontinued, though) at a shop that I know has them.

My decks are "worth" about $600…that's about what I paid for this set not too long ago. To make sure I get the m5gs without any fussing or shopping around, I'd be charging like $900 + shipping for them. If you want them, they're yours. But that's what they're worth to me. I've made the offer to individuals more than once, and there have obviously been no takers.

A few years ago, these decks (all of them) were worth about $250+/-100 each with the high side coming from Guitar Center's used department…pretty much regardless of condition and version…After Technics discontinued them, used prices skyrocketed upwards of $1000/each. And people were happy to get them because they were afraid the NOS/used ones would "run out" or "disappear" or something. That was ridiculous. My price……is not gouging by any stretch of the imagination.

I guess that's why I don't think $500 for a Darwin or $300 for an Empire when you actually can't get one anywhere else and aren't willing to wait seems fair.

 

[MickeyRat]

At what point in time do these hardware makers need to realize that the high demand is there and that they should step their game up? I mean truthfully I would love to own a Darwin, I would love to own a Zenisis, a few lava tanks etc etc but they simply are not available, and I using my God given right to choose to not buy something that is way over priced, so as a result I will just take my money elsewhere.

The hardware makers that aren't supplying enough probably do understand the demand. However, in the case of the Darwin, I'll be surprised if they ever make another one. It needs to be redesigned because it's not compatible with tanks and they probably make as much or more money selling the kick and DNA chip. If they just sell the kick and DNA, they don't have the hassle of replacing that proprietary battery in the Darwin as well. What you'll see in this category is a mod made by someone else that's equipped with a DNA chip. I doubt you'll ever see a new Darwin.

As for the others, they will either step up their game or be overrun by the Chinese. The Chinese have already gone after the Provari with the Vmax. A lot of Provari owners harumph about it but, that's like Mercedes owners putting down a Lexus. I haven't seen it here but, there's a Korean made knock off of the GG Iatty out there. There's a Chinese RBA that's already being used in Europe.

The exception here is really GG. Imeo doesn't seem to want to dream up a design and sell it forever. He seems to want to dream up a design, sell it till he's bored with it, then dream up another design. Very few people have the talent to pull that business model off. He could easily make a lot more money licensing out his designs but, I don't get the impression that he's really interested in that.

 

[Xaiver]

I just started thinking about this topic. It seems that the demand is always much higher than the supply in the e-cig market. Every time I turn around I'm either waiting for juice to come back in stock or for piece of hardware to come back in stock sometimes days, weeks, and even months. It has gotten to the point with somethings that I don't even bother anymore. Backwoods Brew RY4 is in stock so infrequently that I don't have time to be checking the site every single day. Which is a shame cause it's one of my favorite juices. It's not just them either. It's everywhere I go. For example the Darwin hasn't been in stock for a long time. Ikenvape is down all the time. As a consumer it gets very tiring and frustrating.This also gives opportunity for people willing to take advantage of others to be able to do so. The price gouging that I've seen the classifieds lately has been absolutely ridiculous. Some suppliers on the forums even try different methods so that there is a much higher supply. In the case of jonboyusmc lavatanks some people were making more than Jon was and they weren't putting in any work except buying and reselling the item. It begs the question just because we could do something should we? Remind yourself next time that you are thinking about buying an item for well over its retail value that it's you buying it at these inflated rates that enable people to continue charging what they do. Here's to hoping that we stop seeing Darwin's sell for $375. The choice is yours!

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Yes, I read all 3 pages. No, I didn't see any other major points that i wanted to quote.

CASE, do you own a house? Do you know what it actually costs to make a house? Unless you happened to buy it when the market crashed (and even then) chances are pretty good that you paid WAY more than it cost to make it. On a standard 2 bedroom 1 bathroom house (depending upon which part of the country you're in) the cost of the materials and labor is something like 50,000 dollars. That's brand new, just paid for, fully furnished and all of that.

If you do own a house, I imagine that you got it used. I also imagine that it wasn't left in 100% brand new condition. Marks on the walls, damage to this or that. Does that mean the price goes down? Nope. You know what that all means? Absolutely nothing.

Do you know what that 50,000 dollar house is worth? I suppose you could say "It's worth 50,000 dollars, that's what it cost to make it, and pay everyone" but that's simply not true. It's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Sure, in the housing market, the tax fellow comes around and makes a guess at what your house is valued at based on some criteria that the government has assigned floating values to, but that means nothing.

When you're selling a house and price a house low, there's a good chance that you'll get multiple offers on it. When you get multiple offers at once, are you going to take the one that seems like the nicest people? No, you're going to take the best offer. If that's a quick turn around because you want out, or a larger dollar amount, either way, it's whatever's more important to you.

That's how this works. If I wanted to, I could go to the classies and list my Penelope for 5,000 dollars. Nobody would buy it, but I could do it. It would sit there and rot as I lowered the price slowly to try and grab the biggest fish. Once I got down around 300, it would probably go. Why? Because somebody wants it.

Also, I don't really think that price gouging is an appropriate term. Price gouging is something that is done to things that are needed, and taken way up. Think Gasoline. Or if bread was suddenly $20/loaf. You can probably argue this, but the things that you're talking about are luxury items, not necessities. You're not going to suddenly go back to analogs if you don't get a Darwin/Empire/Odysseus/GGTS. If you do, you're being childish.

Anyhow, I've said my peace.
-X

 

[CASEACE79]

The home analogy doesn't really apply here as people generally buy a home expecting it to appreciate in value. It's an investment. And i think price gouging is an acceptable term considering that every lavatank sale i see at least one if not multiple people charging twice what they paid for it and have never had any intention of using it while other people miss out on something that they really want. Explain to me how this is in the slightest bit ethical or moral? And everyone keeps missing the point I'm trying to make about this being a community that I thought helped and respected others. i've seen people sell Mark's Mods on here for $200 when the man who makes them gives them away. It's a sin. ..... is ..... no matter how pretty the bow. You can make any analogy you want about business but this isn't a business. It's a community of peers that I thought respected each other. It's just not the person I want to be. I was just hoping there were others out there that felt the same. Keep a look out on the classies for me because I'll never make a dime more than what I paid. Never have and never will. I'll be the one who's able to sleep at night knowing I helped out someone without taking advantage of someone i either call a friend or hope to call a friend some day.

 

[AlmityPunx]

my thought is that most of the people who run the sites especially for juices seem to be "mom and pop" operations. the most popular ones are out of stock because limited personnel and such.

this is still a very new industry so i believe that most of the devices are not made in massive quantities and production runs. its just common sense that if it takes more time and money to produce, it will cost more to sell.

i dont know about the classifieds here, havent ventured into any of that but ya i believe there is probably some price gouging.

the more the industry grows the more prices will drop.

 

[unloaded]

You could try to start a new trend by offering some of those lave tanks you have at the price you paid for them. But you won't, and here are two reasons why. They are now worth more to you than the original price, to replace you'd have to jump through the same hoops or even more than last time. Second reason, if you were to sell one at cost, you might see it For Sale the next day at a $50 markup! You seem to be having a problem with the seller's intent but it's hard to truely know what it is. Intent could be to take advantage of the situation and get the highest profit. Or it could be "This item is worth $xx to me, I won't part with it for less, if somebody will give me that for it they must want it more than I do."

I do get where you're coming from though. Just watch when GG pre-sale items start shipping. They start showing FS before mine even arrives.

 

[erinspeed]

As I read this thread, it seems that there is an underlying attitude that "profit is bad". The manufacturers are making a profit at their selling point. Is that bad? If there is a high demand for their product, and they raise their price accordingly, is that bad? Is it bad if they raise it so much that they turn people away?

I guess that I just dont subscribe to the "feel good" aspect of this discussion. Everywhere I turn, I am paying more for things than it cost to produce. It doesn't matter how many levels of middlemen it goes through before it makes it to my hands. Everyone makes money. if someone in the supply chain re-sells at no profit, or too high a profit, then the chain adjusts.

If you re-sell any widget at no profit, then you are not going to be doing it for long. If your price is too high, you won't be doing it for long. The secondary market follows the same rules.

P.S. In my business, if I'm not losing an occasional customer because my price is too high, then I'm not charging enough.

 

[CASEACE79]

For the record I am planning on selling off my lavatanks as soon as the Darwin comes back in stock and yes I will sell them at what I paid for them. Why? Because I am less interested in making money than I am helping someone out that could really use it. Is making profit bad? Nope! Not at all. Trust me I get it. I'm the manager of a retail store for christ's sake. Is making profit off a friend just because something is hard to come by ethical or moral? Not at all. That's the distinction I was trying to make. For all of you who don't take issue with this at all can I ask you a question?If a buddy asks you to help him move or to help him with a computer problem would you ask him/her to pay you what they would pay a moving company or a tech specialist? Of course not. Well why should it be any different in the classies. We are supposed to be a group of people helping each other out, hanging out with like minded people, and being generally kind people. That's what initially drew me in to the forums. The community. I'm seeing less and less of that kindheartedness. Is making a couple extra bucks really all that important? Does knowing you made someone's day or having them excited or to putting a smile on their face really have no value?


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[mostapha]

For the record I am planning on selling off my lavatanks as soon as the Darwin comes back in stock and yes I will sell them at what I paid for them. Why? Because I am less interested in making money than I am helping someone out that could really use it.

Dibs. You know…if the Darwin ever comes back in stock. And props. You also have multiples of something that comes out in blocks of about 60 every now and then.

We are supposed to be a group of people helping each other out, hanging out with like minded people, and being generally kind people. That's what initially drew me in to the forums. The community. I'm seeing less and less of that kindheartedness. Is making a couple extra bucks really all that important? Does knowing you made someone's day or having them excited or to putting a smile on their face really have no value?

I'm sure it does to a lot of people. It's awesome to me. And, frankly, I'd be a lot more likely to give away any of my stuff than sell it if that were going to be the case……you know, assuming I had enough stuff to do that.

I really do get where you're coming from, and after my thread about terrible juices, I had two people in Atlanta offering to let me try some of theirs or just meet up. It was awesome, and the fact that I haven't taken them up on it is just a matter of timing.

But I still think it's about selling things for fair prices. And I think buyers decide what they think is fair simply by choosing where to spend their money.

As an example…when I started this reply, I misread your post and thought you said lava tube…not lava tank. That's commendable with what's going on and putting your money where your mouth is. I tip my hat to you. But if it were a lava tube, I'd be accusing you of price gouging. Maybe I'm wrong, but those things are so prevalent that used ones are worth less than new ones. Things like the lava tank, I still think that they're worth whatever people pay for them regardless of the seller's intentions. And it's the seller's intentions that decide whether or not he's a good person.

If he fought through everyone else on a sale night to get a tank only to wait 'till the buzz started up and sell it at a profit…with no intention of using it………that's just profiteering and supply manipulation. And I feel like he should be stuck with it. If someone bought it because they wanted it, used it, and decided not to keep it for whatever reason (maybe they didn't really have the money or decided they wanted something else instead or are trying to pay for a Darwin like you)……and they decided to not make any money, cool……but selling it for a "fair price" would be fine too.

In this context, I just don't think that actions alone define a community…I think it has more to do with people's intentions.

 

[MickeyRat]

Ummmm I'm not 100% sure where the dividing line is with regard to selling outside the classies but, I think you guys might be getting pretty close to it...careful.

 

[Myk]

As I read this thread, it seems that there is an underlying attitude that "profit is bad". The manufacturers are making a profit at their selling point. Is that bad? If there is a high demand for their product, and they raise their price accordingly, is that bad? Is it bad if they raise it so much that they turn people away?

I guess that I just dont subscribe to the "feel good" aspect of this discussion. Everywhere I turn, I am paying more for things than it cost to produce. It doesn't matter how many levels of middlemen it goes through before it makes it to my hands. Everyone makes money. if someone in the supply chain re-sells at no profit, or too high a profit, then the chain adjusts.

If you re-sell any widget at no profit, then you are not going to be doing it for long. If your price is too high, you won't be doing it for long. The secondary market follows the same rules.

P.S. In my business, if I'm not losing an occasional customer because my price is too high, then I'm not charging enough.

Let's not mix the concepts too much. Running a business and selling used electronics as an individual are not in the same class at all.

I won't buy a used product for more than 50% off retail from an individual. Considering it's used and they have no overhead of trying to make a living I think that is being very generous. When it comes to an electronic device it's doubtful I would be in the market at all.

I don't blame those who buy the item at retail to turn around and sell it for a profit. I blame the people who are willing to allow the market to bear such a practice.

 

[mostapha]

I won't buy a used product for more than 50% off retail from an individual. Considering it's used and they have no overhead of trying to make a living I think that is being very generous. When it comes to an electronic device it's doubtful I would be in the market at all.

If I had that policy, I never would have started DJng……or playing guitar…or photography……I wouldn't have bought my favorite lens……and even if I did do those things, I would have started with much crappier gear.

 

[DC2]

If someone purposely goes to a website and buys a bunch of (whatevers) for the specific purpose of turning around and selling them for a much higher price because they are so hard to get, then I think that sucks.

 

[DC2]

That's what initially drew me in to the forums. The community. I'm seeing less and less of that kindheartedness.

That's because it's getting very big, and therefore becoming more and more impersonal.

Does knowing you made someone's day or having them excited or to putting a smile on their face really have no value?

To some people, not even a little value.
And the bigger the forum gets, the more people like that there will be.

 

[Uncle Willie]

If someone purposely goes to a website and buys a bunch of (whatevers) for the specific purpose of turning around and selling them for a much higher price because they are so hard to get, then I think that sucks.

Happens constantly and has since money was invented .. that's one of the great things about a free market .. and, if there are no buyers, then it won't sell .. although some may find it morally bad, it's no different than a car dealer jacking up the price on a limited run new car ..

 

[cags]

just my insignificant opinion............

I will not buy a used item for full price or more. a car depreciates the moment it leaves the car lot and I look at used things here the same. I don't even care if you actually used it or not. thankfully I am able to control my "wants" - the forum has a way of making people want things and if it is hard to get they seem to want it more. I am also one who would feel bad about myself if I made a big profit on something here.
things no longer being made and therefore a "collectors item" might be a little different, but I don't allow myself to want those things. this is probably why I still use and am perfectly content with my joye 510s and egos. I would like to have a reo, but I'm too poor, even for the (high priced) used ones

 

[DC2]

Happens constantly and has since money was invented .. that's one of the great things about a free market .. and, if there are no buyers, then it won't sell .. although some may find it morally bad, it's no different than a car dealer jacking up the price on a limited run new car ..

It's not quite the same, and I don't begrudge the car dealer for getting what the market will pay.
In fact, he would be remiss not to do so, given that it is his job.

The difference to me is that the dealer is offering something the buyer could not get on their own.
A car buyer pretty much has to buy the car from a dealer, and all parties expect to pay whatever the going rate is.

But when someone purposely hoards a product, he has by his actions helped create the shortage that he then intends to profit from.
I don't care if it is business, free-enterprise, or whatever other name people want to give it, I just don't like people like that.

 

[Myk]

If I had that policy, I never would have started DJng……or playing guitar…or photography……I wouldn't have bought my favorite lens……and even if I did do those things, I would have started with much crappier gear.

Some things I can see paying more.
But my stuff is like guns or bows. If they've been used the gun barrels tend to be eroded, bow limbs tend to be cracked. The risk is not worth saving 5% and definitely not worth paying more.
Guitars would fall into that category with frets worn off, struts warped, pick ups blown.
Camera lens I could see paying higher than 50%, although I don't know enough about that to really judge.

Did I miss out on having the best of the best? Yes I did but I still got to shoot some pretty good equipment by watching for real deals. There's a top of the line bow I really wanted but never saw it at the right price. Some of the used prices were more than what I could've got it new on clearance for. Now they're rarely sold.

 

[Xaiver]

For the record I am planning on selling off my lavatanks as soon as the Darwin comes back in stock and yes I will sell them at what I paid for them. Why? Because I am less interested in making money than I am helping someone out that could really use it. Is making profit bad? Nope! Not at all. Trust me I get it. I'm the manager of a retail store for christ's sake. Is making profit off a friend just because something is hard to come by ethical or moral? Not at all. That's the distinction I was trying to make. For all of you who don't take issue with this at all can I ask you a question?If a buddy asks you to help him move or to help him with a computer problem would you ask him/her to pay you what they would pay a moving company or a tech specialist? Of course not. Well why should it be any different in the classies. We are supposed to be a group of people helping each other out, hanging out with like minded people, and being generally kind people. That's what initially drew me in to the forums. The community. I'm seeing less and less of that kindheartedness. Is making a couple extra bucks really all that important? Does knowing you made someone's day or having them excited or to putting a smile on their face really have no value?...

Honestly, if you're really interested in that, then start talking to people privately and gift it to someone that you feel is in need. Or look into the Pay-It-Forward forum, they do things like that.

If you sell it at cost, it's going to disappear in 2 minutes to someone that just wanted another one to put on the shelf, and you'll see pictures of it, along with their other 7 in a few days. I saw a ProVari that was posted on the classies at 4:50am, at 4:53 it was sold. Why? Because it was listed at cost or below. The people that 'need' it or 'really could use a deal' aren't even going to get a chance to see that it's a deal before it's gone.