Some notes on nicotine, absorption, addictiveness and MAOIs
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kin: My little brain is struggling trying to understand at least some of the information in the Guide....LOL. Don't confuse me! Are you saying that the roasting destroys the MAOI in the bean?
Am I understanding that coffee may have MAOI and could be replacing some of the MAOI that we are missing in cigarettes? I have read a number of comments that indicate that people drink less coffee after smoking cessation. Do I have it backwards?
Am I understanding that coffee may have MAOI and could be replacing some of the MAOI that we are missing in cigarettes? I have read a number of comments that indicate that people drink less coffee after smoking cessation. Do I have it backwards?
And then there is that!Always try to maintain a perspective!
LOL I agree....I just am trying to avoid the heebie jeebies and I would really like to quit cigarettes as I can tell how badly they are affecting my ability to breathe!
It might, a bit. But my point was that roasting is basically slow burning. Cooking that creates any 'browning' produces potentially hazardous chemicals. But I'm drinking it right now. As with nicotine, not entirely good, but I like it, and after weighing up the pros and cons, they are both on the menu, in (a kind of) moderation, naturally
And with that said....I am making a cup! The Guide is very interesting, albeit a challenge for the non-scientifically inclined! I will keep the information handy as it could prove very useful in the future as age progresses and, I'm sure, more prescriptions are in my future...sigh.
Thank you so much. This thread is a huge relief!
I just started vaping a couple of weeks ago, and I love it! In the period since my starter kit arrived, I have been smoking one or two analogs a day when I find myself between batteries. Today, I received a third battery and an extra charger--whoo hoo!
When I ordered the starter kit, I had no intention of giving up regular smoking, but I actually prefer the vaping to smoking. However, I find that I vape pretty much nonstop. Will this subside in time naturally? I am using 18 mg juice. Should I increase to 24 mg for a while as I move away from analogs completely or just keep vaping constantly?
I just started vaping a couple of weeks ago, and I love it! In the period since my starter kit arrived, I have been smoking one or two analogs a day when I find myself between batteries. Today, I received a third battery and an extra charger--whoo hoo!
When I ordered the starter kit, I had no intention of giving up regular smoking, but I actually prefer the vaping to smoking. However, I find that I vape pretty much nonstop. Will this subside in time naturally? I am using 18 mg juice. Should I increase to 24 mg for a while as I move away from analogs completely or just keep vaping constantly?
I know this is an old thread but it's getting some links...
On the question of why ecigarettes appear to provide only 10% of the nicotine available to cigarette smokers, as measured in one or more trials: it depends on exactly what is being referred to and how it was measured. For example, are we talking about blood nicotine levels, or vapor / smoke nicotine levels obtained by machine smoking devices?
1. Vapor measurements
If measured in vapor sourced from a machine, then 4 factors need adjusting to compensate for the fact that an ecigarette is not comparable in most ways to a cigarette (it's held in the hand and placed in the mouth - but after that, everything else is different).
Unless an expert advisor is available to assist with ecigarette setup and machine settings, the result will be worthless - as is shown. An e-cigarette may in some cases look similar to a tobacco cigarette but there the similarity ends.
2. Blood nicotine measurements
If measured via blood serum nicotine level, then the single thing we know for sure about ecigarettes in research trials, as evidenced by the fact that several different trials had the same result, is:
If a new ecigarette user, with a new ecigarette, is deliberately isolated from expert advice as to how to specify the correct materials, how to set up the product correctly and how to use it correctly, then they will get little or no nicotine in the bloodstream as a result of using it.
An ecigarette used in a research trial cannot work correctly and is proven not work correctly when the specification, preparation and usage methods are controlled by researchers and not experienced ecigarette users. The basic problem is that researchers assume an ecigarette is comparable in some way to a tobacco cigarette - but as we know, just about every single setup and usage factor is different.
Apart from anything else, new users ought to be given the strongest possible liquid since even correction of their technique will not provide perfect results; and need to be shown how to inhale (for a minimum of 4 seconds); how to hold the vapor in the mouth and then exhale through the nose (as most nicotine absorption is in the mouth and nose and not in the lungs); and that an ecig (exactly like a Nicorette medical nicotine inhaler) must be used for 15 or 20 minutes in order to ingest sufficient nicotine since the lungs are not greatly involved.
Blood nicotine levels measured in new users, with the wrong liquid, with incorrect setup, with faulty units (as admitted by one research group who noted that some units didn't appear to work at all, although, strangely, this did not seem to be a serious enough reason to do anything about it), and without any advice such as the vital facts that the inhale time is multiplied by a factor of from 4 to 8 over a cigarette, or that the usage time is multiplied by a factor of 3 or 4, are likely to be either minuscule or even non-existent.
So as regards the '10%' finding, we see that there are multiple reasons for this, which all boil down to the fact that even sympathetic researchers don't seem to have a clue. Until this basic omission is redressed, all 'research' into nicotine delivery is frankly worthless. As should be patently obvious to the meanest of intellects, if ecigs delivered nicotine on this laughable scale, few would use them. It may well be true that a nicotine level of just 30% of that provided by a cigarette might be sufficient in some cases, but there is a difference between 10 and 30%.
It seems that the only thing that researchers are not able to divine is that they are not competent to manage such a trial.
.
On the question of why ecigarettes appear to provide only 10% of the nicotine available to cigarette smokers, as measured in one or more trials: it depends on exactly what is being referred to and how it was measured. For example, are we talking about blood nicotine levels, or vapor / smoke nicotine levels obtained by machine smoking devices?
1. Vapor measurements
If measured in vapor sourced from a machine, then 4 factors need adjusting to compensate for the fact that an ecigarette is not comparable in most ways to a cigarette (it's held in the hand and placed in the mouth - but after that, everything else is different).
- The liquid needs to be the strongest available since only 36mg liquid is designed to replicate a cigarette's effect. All weaker liquids are for 'withdrawal-phase' use, they are not designed to equal a cigarette. They are the equivalent of a super-light super-mild super-low-tar cigarette - which presumably isn't what was supposed to be being measured.
- The ecig needs to be prepared by an expert since otherwise it can fail to work or under-deliver (proven by several trials).
- The inhale pressure needs to be reduced from the cigarette inhale pressure, since inhaling via an ecig is much lighter, a hard inhale may cause a fail in several ways.
- The inhale period needs to be variable at the very least up to 6 seconds since the minimum inhale time for a standard ecig is 4 seconds, and some users double that. A cigarette is only inhaled for 1 second, perhaps 2 seconds max. There are multiple reasons why a short inhale does not work for an ecig, such as atomizer temperature for example.
Unless an expert advisor is available to assist with ecigarette setup and machine settings, the result will be worthless - as is shown. An e-cigarette may in some cases look similar to a tobacco cigarette but there the similarity ends.
2. Blood nicotine measurements
If measured via blood serum nicotine level, then the single thing we know for sure about ecigarettes in research trials, as evidenced by the fact that several different trials had the same result, is:
If a new ecigarette user, with a new ecigarette, is deliberately isolated from expert advice as to how to specify the correct materials, how to set up the product correctly and how to use it correctly, then they will get little or no nicotine in the bloodstream as a result of using it.
An ecigarette used in a research trial cannot work correctly and is proven not work correctly when the specification, preparation and usage methods are controlled by researchers and not experienced ecigarette users. The basic problem is that researchers assume an ecigarette is comparable in some way to a tobacco cigarette - but as we know, just about every single setup and usage factor is different.
Apart from anything else, new users ought to be given the strongest possible liquid since even correction of their technique will not provide perfect results; and need to be shown how to inhale (for a minimum of 4 seconds); how to hold the vapor in the mouth and then exhale through the nose (as most nicotine absorption is in the mouth and nose and not in the lungs); and that an ecig (exactly like a Nicorette medical nicotine inhaler) must be used for 15 or 20 minutes in order to ingest sufficient nicotine since the lungs are not greatly involved.
Blood nicotine levels measured in new users, with the wrong liquid, with incorrect setup, with faulty units (as admitted by one research group who noted that some units didn't appear to work at all, although, strangely, this did not seem to be a serious enough reason to do anything about it), and without any advice such as the vital facts that the inhale time is multiplied by a factor of from 4 to 8 over a cigarette, or that the usage time is multiplied by a factor of 3 or 4, are likely to be either minuscule or even non-existent.
So as regards the '10%' finding, we see that there are multiple reasons for this, which all boil down to the fact that even sympathetic researchers don't seem to have a clue. Until this basic omission is redressed, all 'research' into nicotine delivery is frankly worthless. As should be patently obvious to the meanest of intellects, if ecigs delivered nicotine on this laughable scale, few would use them. It may well be true that a nicotine level of just 30% of that provided by a cigarette might be sufficient in some cases, but there is a difference between 10 and 30%.
It seems that the only thing that researchers are not able to divine is that they are not competent to manage such a trial.
.
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I'm really glad I stumbled across this information. Since I began vaping 4 weeks ago I've noticed a slight depression. I used to have serious depression years ago but for the last 2 or 3 years I've been depression free. So this sudden onset of a mild but irritating depression was a concern.
I knew it was possibly related to the MAOI's I was no longer getting. However, I did not know until reading this that it was causing lower levels of all the mood related chemicals in my brain.
I think I'm starting to feel better 4 weeks into vaping w/o smoking analogs. However, I did smoke half an analog this afternoon. Although that was primarily to get a guage of where my nicotine level was overall.
I'm considering taking some St. John's Wort if this issue doesn't clear up in the next couple of days/weeks. The other option is to smoke an occasional analog as needed.
I'd rather quit smoking entirely, however, if I could get away with only smoking a ciggy a day and avoid depression I'd definitely do it. Though the idea would be to gradually reduce tobacco consumption over time. This is probably what I should have done to begin with. However, being a bit uninformed I decided to not smoke ever again upon recieving my PV.
I know that has worked for many people. I'm not sure it was such a great idea for me though. Given my past issues with depression and the fact that my current environment would be depression inducing for many is likely why I noticed the ill effects.
Anyway, just wanted to thank the original poster and all of those who contributed. Just knowing the root cause of the issue has made me feel better.
-Danyulc
I knew it was possibly related to the MAOI's I was no longer getting. However, I did not know until reading this that it was causing lower levels of all the mood related chemicals in my brain.
I think I'm starting to feel better 4 weeks into vaping w/o smoking analogs. However, I did smoke half an analog this afternoon. Although that was primarily to get a guage of where my nicotine level was overall.
I'm considering taking some St. John's Wort if this issue doesn't clear up in the next couple of days/weeks. The other option is to smoke an occasional analog as needed.
I'd rather quit smoking entirely, however, if I could get away with only smoking a ciggy a day and avoid depression I'd definitely do it. Though the idea would be to gradually reduce tobacco consumption over time. This is probably what I should have done to begin with. However, being a bit uninformed I decided to not smoke ever again upon recieving my PV.
I know that has worked for many people. I'm not sure it was such a great idea for me though. Given my past issues with depression and the fact that my current environment would be depression inducing for many is likely why I noticed the ill effects.
Anyway, just wanted to thank the original poster and all of those who contributed. Just knowing the root cause of the issue has made me feel better.
-Danyulc
You should try some smokeless tobacco instead of smoking tobacco, far, far less risk in smokeless. (2% of the risk of analogs max.) St. John's Wort made my depressions even worse when I tried it, a few years ago.
Thanks for the info! I actually used smokeless tobacco a few years back. For a couple months I was using Copenhagen pouches. Got a serious nicotine buzz from them as well.
I'm only smoking a half of a 100 cigarette per day at the moment, sometimes only once every other day. So I figure it shouldn't be more than a week or so now before I can stop entirely.
I've decided against the St Johns Wort just because I seem to be slowly getting better. It's also helped that I've found something fun to do to occupy my time. Playing Final Fantasty 12 on my PC via PCSX2 emulator, lol. Runs pretty good but had to O/C my dual core athlon to 3.1ghz to make it fast enough.
I'm not really sure how much of my depression was related to going through a period of boredom. I'm not really sure how much was MAOI/Tobacco related either. Everything seems to have worked itself out for now though. Since starting with the PV a little over a month ago I've smoked maybe 2.5 cigarettes.
So in all I'd say it was definitely worth the hardship to make the switch. The depression was never really severe, but annoying none the less. Definitely worth it though as I believe it's mostly in the past and I'm almost entirely smoke free now.
I've got 4 cigarettes left and I don't intend on buying another pack. Perhaps one more if I absolutely have to, but, it doesn't seem like it will be necessary! Really helped finding something interesting to occupy my time. Being injured and unable to work atm means that I've a ton of free time to fill. Which can be nice, but, can also be terribly boring. Especially when you've no money to spend!
Should be able to rehabilitate my knee and resume working within the next couple months if everything goes according to plan. Might need some smokeless tobacco then though, lol.
-Danyulc
I'm only smoking a half of a 100 cigarette per day at the moment, sometimes only once every other day. So I figure it shouldn't be more than a week or so now before I can stop entirely.
I've decided against the St Johns Wort just because I seem to be slowly getting better. It's also helped that I've found something fun to do to occupy my time. Playing Final Fantasty 12 on my PC via PCSX2 emulator, lol. Runs pretty good but had to O/C my dual core athlon to 3.1ghz to make it fast enough.
I'm not really sure how much of my depression was related to going through a period of boredom. I'm not really sure how much was MAOI/Tobacco related either. Everything seems to have worked itself out for now though. Since starting with the PV a little over a month ago I've smoked maybe 2.5 cigarettes.
So in all I'd say it was definitely worth the hardship to make the switch. The depression was never really severe, but annoying none the less. Definitely worth it though as I believe it's mostly in the past and I'm almost entirely smoke free now.
I've got 4 cigarettes left and I don't intend on buying another pack. Perhaps one more if I absolutely have to, but, it doesn't seem like it will be necessary! Really helped finding something interesting to occupy my time. Being injured and unable to work atm means that I've a ton of free time to fill. Which can be nice, but, can also be terribly boring. Especially when you've no money to spend!
Should be able to rehabilitate my knee and resume working within the next couple months if everything goes according to plan. Might need some smokeless tobacco then though, lol.
-Danyulc
Hello,
I came across this interesting thread just today. Could you provide me with some source of this 40-45% number?
What kind of 'recombination' do you have in mind?
I'd be very happy if you could provide me with the answers.
Regards
Old Chemist from Poland
Hi, the 40% figure has been revised since the early experiments. It is now clear that nearly all the nicotine in e-liquid makes it out of the atomiser. How much is absorbed would depend on how long the vapor is held and how much exhaled.
The glycol binding thought was wrong; I no longer think that happens.
The glycol binding thought was wrong; I no longer think that happens.
You mention "trials" - here - is there a source for the trials - a place where hard copies can be obtained?
Much of what I've read from currently published research compares ecigs to tobacco cigarettes. I'm not a researcher myself - but the comparison seems quite off ... I would love to read more on the subject.
Yes, there are several research trials discussed on ECF - the current problem is finding them
We just opened a new Research section to solve this problem. There are two (or more) trials that produced results that indicated it is necessary to have an electronic cigarette expert present or the end results will be sub par.
I will ask the Mods to find and move research-related threads to the new section. In the meantime you might search for the doctors' names involved perhaps. These names generally crop up in this context: Drs. Eissenberg, Bullen, Laugesen, and Siegel.
We just opened a new Research section to solve this problem. There are two (or more) trials that produced results that indicated it is necessary to have an electronic cigarette expert present or the end results will be sub par.
I will ask the Mods to find and move research-related threads to the new section. In the meantime you might search for the doctors' names involved perhaps. These names generally crop up in this context: Drs. Eissenberg, Bullen, Laugesen, and Siegel.
Good to know this has changed. I just found a bunch of things to read such as your blog and the thread on beta-carbolines, but haven't gotten through it all yet. Do you have some estimates on how much is then exhaled, depending on how it is inhaled? I'm just curious, not looking for anything accurate. Near 100% is quite different than the 10% originally supposed.
Yes, there are several research trials discussed on ECF - the current problem is finding them
We just opened a new Research section to solve this problem. There are two (or more) trials that produced results that indicated it is necessary to have an electronic cigarette expert present or the end results will be sub par.
I will ask the Mods to find and move research-related threads to the new section. In the meantime you might search for the doctors' names involved perhaps. These names generally crop up in this context: Drs. Eissenberg, Bullen, Laugesen, and Siegel.
I found your new little forum like a week ago and was writing something up, then my browser died and I lost it all. I'll redo at least the main points when I have time. Even if the guys in that Leuven study are PhD chemists, I seem to know more about the flavoring industry than them. They somehow called the Maillard Reaction the "Milan Reaction", which turns up nothing in google besides talking about AC Milan. I'm not sure I was correct on the unit conversions but I found differing numbers for the LC50 for one of the flavorings. They also claimed that the flavorings weren't commercially available so they needed to make their own. That is just false. At least a half dozen major flavoring manufacturers make at least the one I looked at, and something like 100K pounds are consumed each year.
There's even more serious errors than the ones you or I mentioned. I found out too that that study is cited as a favorable case for the safety of e-cigs in this 2010 Yearbook of Tobacco Harm Reduction, which might also interest you.
One of the common factors in all the electronic cigarette research I've seen so far - technical and medical - is the less than competent management. Dr Siegel's current Boston project seems to be addressing that issue.
Interesting. I feel very strongly that soemthing is missing in my vapor and I still smoke even though I have cut my intake of cigs to 50%.
Vapor merely stimulates me which is great for the daytime as I want to not feel lethargic and tight chested and smelly. But in the evening I want that relaxing feel froma cig so I still have a few.
Would be cool if some of the tobacco consituants that give the relaxing effect could be added to e-liquids.
Vapor merely stimulates me which is great for the daytime as I want to not feel lethargic and tight chested and smelly. But in the evening I want that relaxing feel froma cig so I still have a few.
Would be cool if some of the tobacco consituants that give the relaxing effect could be added to e-liquids.
Perhaps so, although that might be controversial.
One solution to this, used by many e-cigarette users, is the use of Snus in addition to an e-cig. Another is the DIY addition of TE (tobacco extract) to your refill liquid, for which we have a forum here - a sub-forum in the DIY E-Liquid area.
One solution to this, used by many e-cigarette users, is the use of Snus in addition to an e-cig. Another is the DIY addition of TE (tobacco extract) to your refill liquid, for which we have a forum here - a sub-forum in the DIY E-Liquid area.
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