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It is worth noting that this will not work with tobacco extractions. Alkaloids including nicotine exist primarily as salts within tobacco.
It is completely legitimate to have method of verification on nicotine content of e-juice for a variety reasons. It is possible within a 10% vg solution in the freezer for months that the bottom is 30% and the top is only 5%... or worse yet a pure layer forms or crystallizes. It is fully possible someone makes an error in calculation/mixing. If labels fall off bottles...
It is completely legitimate to have method of verification on nicotine content of e-juice for a variety reasons. It is possible within a 10% vg solution in the freezer for months that the bottom is 30% and the top is only 5%... or worse yet a pure layer forms or crystallizes. It is fully possible someone makes an error in calculation/mixing. If labels fall off bottles...
I've not been able to find any reference to anyone successfully using Phenol Red in place of Bromothymol Blue, but since it was all I could find at a local pool supply store, and it seems to be suitable for the task, I gave it a try. They seem fairly similar, and both turn yellow when pH drops sharply below 7.
Bromothymol Blue: 6.0 - 7.6, yellow to blue
Phenol Red: 6.8 - 8.2, yellow to red
I made a .1N acetic acid solution, using equipment of limited precision, as outlined by DVap in post #21, this thread. Using his original simplified test, from the other thread, my fairly-oxidized, more than year old 36mg/ml solution titrated to about 33.7mg/ml. Seems like a pretty good indication, to me. I got a sudden change from orange to yellow, as expected.
I used a 3ml syringe that had .1ml graduations, with a bit of air in it, to measure out the acid fairly accurately. I'll order a couple of glass graduated cylinders to hopefully improve the mixing accuracy for the acetic acid, but it seemed to be pretty close on this try.
Just thought I'd relate this, in case anybody knows any reason why Phenol Red would skew the results. Otherwise, it may make it easier for some to find an indicator dye.
Bromothymol Blue: 6.0 - 7.6, yellow to blue
Phenol Red: 6.8 - 8.2, yellow to red
I made a .1N acetic acid solution, using equipment of limited precision, as outlined by DVap in post #21, this thread. Using his original simplified test, from the other thread, my fairly-oxidized, more than year old 36mg/ml solution titrated to about 33.7mg/ml. Seems like a pretty good indication, to me. I got a sudden change from orange to yellow, as expected.
I used a 3ml syringe that had .1ml graduations, with a bit of air in it, to measure out the acid fairly accurately. I'll order a couple of glass graduated cylinders to hopefully improve the mixing accuracy for the acetic acid, but it seemed to be pretty close on this try.
Just thought I'd relate this, in case anybody knows any reason why Phenol Red would skew the results. Otherwise, it may make it easier for some to find an indicator dye.
Since I make my own and buy my NIC from a reliable manufactor(Wizard labs). I see no need to waste any money on a Nicotine test kits? I trust WL when they say the NIC I buy is 60 mg. When I get it I cut to 30ml anyway. So none of my DIY can be anyhigher.
I use a online calculator when I make my juice so I know the NIC's mg. So why on earth should I waste my money testing Nicotine %?
U SAY, well what if you make a mistake when mixing. I could make the same mistake when measuring for the TESTING, thats my reply to that.
POINT, I make no mistakes on mixing juice I am VERY careful. I right down all % before mixing and double check before adding to bottle.
I use a online calculator when I make my juice so I know the NIC's mg. So why on earth should I waste my money testing Nicotine %?
U SAY, well what if you make a mistake when mixing. I could make the same mistake when measuring for the TESTING, thats my reply to that.
POINT, I make no mistakes on mixing juice I am VERY careful. I right down all % before mixing and double check before adding to bottle.
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I'm going to try to make this post informational, so that there is some point in posting it.
If you trust Wizard Labs completely, as well as your mixing process, then don't bother worrying about testing it. That last sentence quoted above is a false assertion, though, since you cannot know it to be true.
If you trust the calculator completely, as well as your ability to use it correctly, then don't bother with testing, if you don't think it's worth it. I'm quite sure that there are some that aren't quite as trusting as you, or have a situation that you hadn't thought of, and would like to do a test. More on that, below.
I don't know if anyone actually asked that question, but 'proving' a solution by solving it in a different way is the basis of most of humankind's advancement in knowledge. Chances are slim that one would end up with the same wrong answer twice after having solved a problem two different ways. It's a proven useful methodology.
Honestly, I fail to see a point to your post, other than that you seem to be wondering if there's a reason that you would consider valid for this thread to exist.
One reason for this thread to exist is that humans are generally not trustworthy. They make mistakes, and some even lie, steal, and cause harm to others. Specifically, there was at least one big incident, not too long ago, where a supplier was sending out e-liquids of fairly random concentrations of nicotine, while stating that they were a specific concentration. Some were even up to 2.5 times the stated concentration. Here are a couple of threads showing how some of that incident played out:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-boxelder-nic-feels-wayyyy-too-strong-52.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on-we-have-problem-nic-titration-results.html
If you look through those, notice the amount of time that there was only speculation, before a test similar to this conclusively confirmed the problem. There was certainly a drop in trust since this incident.
Rest assured that there are other reasons for wanting to test for nicotine concentration, which is why I was interested.
If you trust Wizard Labs completely, as well as your mixing process, then don't bother worrying about testing it. That last sentence quoted above is a false assertion, though, since you cannot know it to be true.
If you trust the calculator completely, as well as your ability to use it correctly, then don't bother with testing, if you don't think it's worth it. I'm quite sure that there are some that aren't quite as trusting as you, or have a situation that you hadn't thought of, and would like to do a test. More on that, below.
I don't know if anyone actually asked that question, but 'proving' a solution by solving it in a different way is the basis of most of humankind's advancement in knowledge. Chances are slim that one would end up with the same wrong answer twice after having solved a problem two different ways. It's a proven useful methodology.
Honestly, I fail to see a point to your post, other than that you seem to be wondering if there's a reason that you would consider valid for this thread to exist.
One reason for this thread to exist is that humans are generally not trustworthy. They make mistakes, and some even lie, steal, and cause harm to others. Specifically, there was at least one big incident, not too long ago, where a supplier was sending out e-liquids of fairly random concentrations of nicotine, while stating that they were a specific concentration. Some were even up to 2.5 times the stated concentration. Here are a couple of threads showing how some of that incident played out:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-boxelder-nic-feels-wayyyy-too-strong-52.html
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on-we-have-problem-nic-titration-results.html
If you look through those, notice the amount of time that there was only speculation, before a test similar to this conclusively confirmed the problem. There was certainly a drop in trust since this incident.
Rest assured that there are other reasons for wanting to test for nicotine concentration, which is why I was interested.
What ever floats your boat honey. If you don't trust yourself I imagine no one else should either.
But don't dog on me just because I trust myself and Wizard Lab. Wizard Labs is an FDA registered facility, give me one good reason not to trust their 60mg NIC is not what they say it is?
When I get my 60mg NIC, I immediately cut it 50% to make it non lethal on bare skin. When I make a batch I trust the calculator and since I make the same batches over and over I keep notes.
TO me, what this thread and UR dogging on me is about. Is maybe you and others are really pushing the sale of test kits for some company. USEING SCARE tactics to sell something not really needed.
My Reply:
After you make a test, who test to make sure you didn't make a mistake, then who test to make sure that guy didn't make a mistake on the test? I could go on and on but its senseless. Also the people makeing the test you buy, how can you be sure all the chemicals in the test kit are made right with no mistakes. Shouldn't you test the "test kit" to make sure its ok, then have someone test your test of the test kit....
CAN U SEE HOW STUPID THIS ALL IS. If you can't trust yourself then u can't trust anyone.
BOTTOM LINE LucentShadow:
do you test ur perscription drugs and do you trust the pharmacist? No different I can see than buying NIC from Wizard Labs or other trusted makers.
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I am sorry, but you have failed, ur post is a waste of time.
Here's some questions you have to ask yourself about you not trusting others.
Do you test everything you eat and drink?
U said people make mistakes, maybe some junky who works at a bread factory accidently drops a hit of COKE or Neth into the dough and you eat it, do u test ur bread? Or you buy a cake for your kids B-day party and the baker has the flue/strep throat and coughs on your cake, do you test the cake? Or maybe you go out to the local club and order a drink, better take your test kit along and make sure the bartender doesn't slip drugs in your drink. Do you see how rediculous it is saying u can't trust anyone? Especially yourself
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I'm not going to debate the merits of this thread with you, as your posts are not reasonable, or open-minded.
If, despite the information that I posted, you still think that this thread is stupid, and a waste of time, then simply leave it. It was not posted it here with the intent of aggravating you, or to convince you to do anything. It was posted for people who were interested in using it.
It's simply information, you can use it, ignore it, or scorn it. I personally don't see the point of crusading against knowledge, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
For what it's worth, I trust myself fully in anything that I do, because I do so with as much knowledge as is practical, for me.
No, your posts are not reasonable, or open-minded. U see only ur side and no other, like u r always right and everyone else is wrong.
Never said the thread was stupid, I just gave my opinion which you could not handle and decided to dog on me so I returned the favor.
Lets see, u can come in and give "PROS" on the subject. But when someone comes to a post and gives the "CONS" they should just leave. Is that your attitude. When you dogged on my post, which was my opinion, that opened the door for me to do the same. If you don't want dogged on then don't putdown other peoples opinions.
I take it the purpose of testing for Nic Content is to double check your own DIY and companies you buy ready made juice from.
My point is. WHY? If you are that paranoid then ur in sad shape cause how can you trust drug companies, resturants, food makers, etc. to NOT put something harmfull into something you buy.
To me the main point of these Nic Test Kits are just to make companies money, its a scare tactic to up their income.
I suggest u do research with any company you buy Juice or NIC from. Thats what I did and I only buy Nic from WL which is a FDA registered facility
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Regardless of one's thoughts on the reliability of the nicotine content of their base, for safety purposes, it's always a good idea to test your base and finished product. To err is human. To take the label reading as the gospel truth isn't wise.
As my dad taught me 'two pair of eyes are better than one' and 'measure twice cut once'
Unfortunately, I feel the need to address some of the things that Charly1954 has posted in this splendid conversation, and to summarize their side of this conversation, as I see it.
You came in and said that you thought that this was a waste of money, and asked why you should waste your money on this, thereby implying that those who have participated in this thread have done so in error. You then stated that you fully trust in any product that you buy, and would never feel the need to test anything that you do.
After I explained why this thread is valid, with a very good example, and stated that my interest was different, you came back and and accused me of 'dogging on you', mischaracterized most of what I said, and accused me, and others, of being shills for some company selling nicotine test kits (thereby revealing your intentions, here.) You then went on to make more incorrect assumptions about my interest in this thread, and declared this whole thread to be stupid.
You then made more incorrect assumptions about me, and asked more questions based upon invalid assumptions.
I graciously ignored the unreasonable defamation and other mischaracterizations, and made some very general, very evident, observations, which you responded to. I'll now address that post, by paragraph:
I don't think that I'm always correct, but I'm quite confident in my ability to be reasonable, and open-minded. If you disagree, I'm fine with that.
You did say that the thread was stupid. Go back and read your posts. I see no value in such comments. If you want to think that I'm 'dogging on you' because of that, I suppose that's your prerogative.
I did not give 'PROS on the subject', I just gave information. There are no 'CONS' to the original post in this thread, as it's just information on how to use generic items to complete a particular task. Knowledge is power, but one may always ignore it, if one wishes.
Sure, that's one purpose. Before the big fiasco that I pointed out, earlier, it was evident that many of the vendors did not test their product. They just did as you do, and trust the advertised strength, and their process. While that's fine fore one's own use, it's not fine for a commercial product. There were many that announced that they would start testing, using this method, after that.
One might also use it to test tobacco extracts for nicotine content, though there are some caveats with that, which have been mentioned. That was my interest, and I'll not discuss it further, as that does not pertain to this thread.
One does not need paranoia to be interested in this. Simple curiosity is enough, isn't it?
First, and most importantly: This thread was posted to give everyone information on how to use generic materials to do a nicotine titration. If there was any mention of commercial test kits, later, that that would be purely an OPTION for people who wanted to test something, but did not want to put a kit together, themselves.
Second, and very important: It's extremely offensive to call those that freely share information shills for some nefarious company. It's an unreasonable conclusion, but you're free to have it. Just as others are free to disagree. I am not a shill, though I don't expect you to believe that. I'm not even terribly interested in this subject. I simply can't stand to see people put down advancement of knowledge for no good reason, other than unreasonable conspiracy theories.
Again, your assumptions that I'm paranoid about products that I buy are misguided. I've never tested any nicotine liquid that I've bought, other than as a control to compare to. I would not begrudge anyone who did want to test a product, though, especially if it seems 'off', as has happened in the past.
I do find it interesting that you think that this thread is a conspiracy to sell test kits, but trust your nicotine vendor completely. Do they sell test kits? If so, are they in on it?
The original post in this thread has nothing at all to do with selling any sort of nicotine test kit, and has everything to do with providing information on how to make one up. If you had done any research on the subject, you may have found a lot of context for this thread, in these forums. I've done that research, and it makes perfect sense to me.
You came in and said that you thought that this was a waste of money, and asked why you should waste your money on this, thereby implying that those who have participated in this thread have done so in error. You then stated that you fully trust in any product that you buy, and would never feel the need to test anything that you do.
After I explained why this thread is valid, with a very good example, and stated that my interest was different, you came back and and accused me of 'dogging on you', mischaracterized most of what I said, and accused me, and others, of being shills for some company selling nicotine test kits (thereby revealing your intentions, here.) You then went on to make more incorrect assumptions about my interest in this thread, and declared this whole thread to be stupid.
You then made more incorrect assumptions about me, and asked more questions based upon invalid assumptions.
I graciously ignored the unreasonable defamation and other mischaracterizations, and made some very general, very evident, observations, which you responded to. I'll now address that post, by paragraph:
I don't think that I'm always correct, but I'm quite confident in my ability to be reasonable, and open-minded. If you disagree, I'm fine with that.
You did say that the thread was stupid. Go back and read your posts. I see no value in such comments. If you want to think that I'm 'dogging on you' because of that, I suppose that's your prerogative.
I did not give 'PROS on the subject', I just gave information. There are no 'CONS' to the original post in this thread, as it's just information on how to use generic items to complete a particular task. Knowledge is power, but one may always ignore it, if one wishes.
Sure, that's one purpose. Before the big fiasco that I pointed out, earlier, it was evident that many of the vendors did not test their product. They just did as you do, and trust the advertised strength, and their process. While that's fine fore one's own use, it's not fine for a commercial product. There were many that announced that they would start testing, using this method, after that.
One might also use it to test tobacco extracts for nicotine content, though there are some caveats with that, which have been mentioned. That was my interest, and I'll not discuss it further, as that does not pertain to this thread.
One does not need paranoia to be interested in this. Simple curiosity is enough, isn't it?
First, and most importantly: This thread was posted to give everyone information on how to use generic materials to do a nicotine titration. If there was any mention of commercial test kits, later, that that would be purely an OPTION for people who wanted to test something, but did not want to put a kit together, themselves.
Second, and very important: It's extremely offensive to call those that freely share information shills for some nefarious company. It's an unreasonable conclusion, but you're free to have it. Just as others are free to disagree. I am not a shill, though I don't expect you to believe that. I'm not even terribly interested in this subject. I simply can't stand to see people put down advancement of knowledge for no good reason, other than unreasonable conspiracy theories.
Again, your assumptions that I'm paranoid about products that I buy are misguided. I've never tested any nicotine liquid that I've bought, other than as a control to compare to. I would not begrudge anyone who did want to test a product, though, especially if it seems 'off', as has happened in the past.
I do find it interesting that you think that this thread is a conspiracy to sell test kits, but trust your nicotine vendor completely. Do they sell test kits? If so, are they in on it?
The original post in this thread has nothing at all to do with selling any sort of nicotine test kit, and has everything to do with providing information on how to make one up. If you had done any research on the subject, you may have found a lot of context for this thread, in these forums. I've done that research, and it makes perfect sense to me.
Well done on not resorting to a few curse words and insults. But really quality testing a product you make is not paranoid it is quality control. I have just started lurking the DIY juice area to get a feel for what you all are doing to ensure the quality of your end result. That was the ONLY reason I looked in this section. I have found even the Big juice makers like say 5chess pieces prints lot number and bottle number for quality control tracking purposes. Testing your original nic base and testing your final product will increase cost but also increase quality outcomes. In the end the only part if the equation I personally want to cut cost on is the bottles. I have plenty of glass bottle so will save money there and bulk purchase. Quality is for me no place to look to save money.
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One could do that titration just once or twice randomly among different batches of nic base ordered in one place to verify if the company is worth trusting. Then, if you find the concentration to be near the said value as indicated by the company, you can then after just use what they labeled and enjoy your DIYs.
I'm from Canada and I had a bit of a hard time ordering nic base. I know a few places in the states that have good reputation that I would trust directly. But I want to make sure that I can trust my sources in Canada. It's worth doing if you don't want to get ripped off and end up having a nic base half as strong as you wanted. It's more in that sense to me than having overly dosed nic base. It is also safer to make sure it's not too concentrated (especially if you intend to sell some of your recipes).
Finally, I'm a chemist too and I will have fun measuring mine. I already did an NMR analysis of my nic base to see if there was only nicotine and PG and no other organic compounds. Not the most sensitive method to detect impurities I must admit but it was very quick and easy for me to do. I didn't observe anything else than the ''molecular signature'' signals for nicotine and PG. But because the amount of PG is well over that of nicotine, it's not a good method for determining the exact concentration.
I'm from Canada and I had a bit of a hard time ordering nic base. I know a few places in the states that have good reputation that I would trust directly. But I want to make sure that I can trust my sources in Canada. It's worth doing if you don't want to get ripped off and end up having a nic base half as strong as you wanted. It's more in that sense to me than having overly dosed nic base. It is also safer to make sure it's not too concentrated (especially if you intend to sell some of your recipes).
Finally, I'm a chemist too and I will have fun measuring mine. I already did an NMR analysis of my nic base to see if there was only nicotine and PG and no other organic compounds. Not the most sensitive method to detect impurities I must admit but it was very quick and easy for me to do. I didn't observe anything else than the ''molecular signature'' signals for nicotine and PG. But because the amount of PG is well over that of nicotine, it's not a good method for determining the exact concentration.
Hey Rudy,
Where did you end up getting the liquid nicotine? What dilution?
Cheers,
Eric
All my eliquids are from Halo and one is my DIY Tribeca Clone. All are 18mg/ml.
When I test each one of these, I get the same result. About 4mg/ml.
Before anyone asks, I have walmart distilled water and followed the directions to the letter, over and over again.
Perhaps it is my older eyes, but when I titrate with the acid, I can only get to .2ml before it turns yellow.
Can I add more Bromothyomel Blue, so there is a bigger contrast when the color changes.
Any suggestions would be welcome. I figure I am doing something very wrong since every liquid ends up with the same result.
My DIY liquid is made with VT Nicotine, so I am reasonably confident in it's content and I would believe Halo as well.
When I test each one of these, I get the same result. About 4mg/ml.
Before anyone asks, I have walmart distilled water and followed the directions to the letter, over and over again.
Perhaps it is my older eyes, but when I titrate with the acid, I can only get to .2ml before it turns yellow.
Can I add more Bromothyomel Blue, so there is a bigger contrast when the color changes.
Any suggestions would be welcome. I figure I am doing something very wrong since every liquid ends up with the same result.
My DIY liquid is made with VT Nicotine, so I am reasonably confident in it's content and I would believe Halo as well.
Well, I finally decided, after reading a lot, that I should have tested my base and not the flavored liquid.
The base tested perfect on my DIY.
I did require a stirring device for my 10ml cylinder(a long straw) since my base with the Bromothymol Blue tended to stay at the bottom of the cylinder as I added the acid, even with very agitated swirling.
So, it is confirmed that I still am a newbie and have no clue!
Even in the land of swimming pools and movie stars, I can't seem to find the bromo, online I go!
Paul, nowadays ( old thread here) they sell nic test kits already assembled if you'd like at most of the better DIY supplier's.
http://www.nudenicotine.com/product/nude-nicotine-test-kit-high-resolution/
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Yeah. That's what it seems like, but likely more cost effective to get the materials online, got what I needed for about 22 bucks shipped. I guess I didn't need to spring for the Pyrex graduated cylinder, but I'm a corning fan for life! XD
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