I just read a very concerning article about Kanthal being used in constant current (wattage) mode producing aluminum toxicity. Does anyone know what the safest wire material to use with wattage mode would be? I'm not talking about temperature control. All the items I purchased for the Vapocalypse are primarily mechanical, so I don't see me tossing them in favor of temp controlled devices at this time.
There's a few different types that are safe for Power, Wattage and Voltage uses.
Titanium and Nickel are the ones to keep away from for definite though, as they should only be used in TC mode.
There has been a few research articles that have published some information though about possible toxicity with other metals, but when they're looked at in depth the conditions for producing toxic compounds are not even representative of real world vaping conditions.
Titanium and Nickel are the ones to keep away from for definite though, as they should only be used in TC mode.
There has been a few research articles that have published some information though about possible toxicity with other metals, but when they're looked at in depth the conditions for producing toxic compounds are not even representative of real world vaping conditions.
Below is the article. I do trust this person as he is helping to provide alternatives for dealing with metal toxifies. I just mention it because he doesn't strike me as someone out to get vaping.
Avoid Inhaling Neurotoxic Vapor from E-Cigarettes
Avoid Inhaling Neurotoxic Vapor from E-Cigarettes
Well he doesn't vape . . . and he comes across as anti-vaping to me. So.
In all likelihood what you read refers to Kanthal being used at a very high temperature. Vaping does not reach those high temps. Dry burning will, if a user is blasting a Kanthal coil at very high wattages, cause a coil to glow bright red (a known no-no). The solution is very simple. Always dry burn coils, no matter the wire type, so they only glow a very dull/dim orange.
You can use SS (stainless steel) 304, 316, 316L, 317L, 321, 430 or 904L for regular wattage vaping. Many do. It is NOT a wire for TC only.
You can also use Ni80 or Ni90 for wattage vaping. Again, many do.
I use SS316L and Ni80 in RBA's and with mech mods.
For me, Kanthal had a very noticeable metallic taste that I abhorred.
If you are concerned about the temps wires can reach with wattage vaping the solution is very simple.
Switch to TC vaping. TC vaping controls, or puts a cap on, the heat a coil generates. Once that temperature is reached a TC mod backs off.
I vape TC on about half of my 12 setups currently in rotation.
"The mod checks the resistance of the coil at room temperature, then it continues to monitor it as you vape. The resistance change is converted into a temperature increase and the mod adjusts its power to maintain the selected temperature. Think of it as a car traveling in cruise control."
from:
vaping360.com
Switch to TC vaping. TC vaping controls, or puts a cap on, the heat a coil generates. Once that temperature is reached a TC mod backs off.
I vape TC on about half of my 12 setups currently in rotation.
"The mod checks the resistance of the coil at room temperature, then it continues to monitor it as you vape. The resistance change is converted into a temperature increase and the mod adjusts its power to maintain the selected temperature. Think of it as a car traveling in cruise control."
from:
Beginner's Guide for Vaping with Temperature Control
Temperature control is a technological innovation in vaping that prevents dry and burnt hits by limiting the vape to a temperature set by the user.
vaping360.com
Well, the author seems to be interested in brain problems caused by aluminum. The sections addressing aluminum welding and drug use, and the effects of aluminum on the brain, were well documented. But the sections on kanthal vaping were rather sketchy. For example, vaping studies which didn't show the type of wire being used. It would be interesting to see a study showing the amounts of aluminum detected in vapor from kanthal coils in real vaping conditions. "All the aluminum is vaporized after 17 hours at 1,200C in an oxygen and moisture rich atmosphere" doesn't tell us anything at all about 3 or 4 seconds at 400F in a liquid environment.
There may be a problem with the aluminum content of kanthal in vaping, and maybe one day someone will do some research on the subject.
That's an author, not someone that actually participates in research and discussion.
Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos is someone that does though, and I was trying to remember recently for others as when it comes to vaping it seems as though science and logic go out the window. But new Tobacco products seem to be fine.
Here's a link to Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos website.
Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos is someone that does though, and I was trying to remember recently for others as when it comes to vaping it seems as though science and logic go out the window. But new Tobacco products seem to be fine.
Here's a link to Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos website.
Thanks for all the great feedback... much appreciated. I've used NI80 and still have a bunch. I'll give SS a go as well.
to quote the linked article:
"The main problems with Kanthal alloy are that it must be heated at constant wattage and not constant temperature and it contains 4% to 7% aluminum that is not thermally stable. When Kanthal wire was heated for 70 hours at 1,200oC all the aluminum is vaporized"
Most of us vape at 350-450F (177-232C) which IMHO is NO WHERE near the temperature needed/required to "vaporize" aluminum.
Granted, studies have shown that OUR JUICE alone will give off "nasty" gasses at around >=440F (which IS a good argument for Temperature Regulation) the most popular form of wick (Cotton!) ignites at a mere ~420F so I rather doubt that those that are using Kanthal (which BTW is a BRAND, the more accurate term is "Kanthal A1" ("A1" being the actual wire type) are at any risk of anything.
Sorry but IMHO more much a-do about nothing.
g.
Actually, if you want to have a good TC vaping experience I'd recommend using almost anything BUT any of the SS variants ShowMeTwice listed above. ALL of the SS variants have WAY TO LOW of a TCR to be of much use in TC vaping outside of a few devices that attempt to regulate it.
Many folks use SS wire for Wattage mode vaping.
For those with older gear or Mechanical mods, Regulated Voltage or fixed voltage modes work fine with this wire as well. (and many other types of wire including Ti and Ni200)
g.
I like using SS because I can switch my RBA's between TC and wattage. Works out nicely for me on regulated and mech mods.
The mods I use for TC, DNA and Dicodes, handle SS decently despite SS's low TCR.
ETA: Works WELL for me.
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Wow, really appreciate the comments. And some really good points have been made. I guess I feel a bit better about it all. I'm considering SS for mechanicals. I invested heavily in them for my Vapocalypse planning back between 2015 and 2019. So much so that I can't really justify moving to temp control (unless I felt compelled to do so, but with alternative wires to Kanthal A1 I don't think I need to). I did try temp control back in the day (Hana DNA40) where you had to use nickel wire LOL. It freaked me out so badly that I never looked at temp control again.
Do you guys agree that out of the SS choices, SS316L looks to be the safest for vaping with a mech?
Do you guys agree that out of the SS choices, SS316L looks to be the safest for vaping with a mech?
SS316L is the most common available and there's plenty of manufacturers such as Vandy Vape and Wotofo that make complex wire spools and coils.
But any SS will be fine, but for TC mode SS430 is pretty good due to it having a high TCR which makes it more accurate.
And TC has kind of come a long way now, you should be able to source a single battery mod with reasonable TC performance for less than 30 USD on the cheaper end of what's available. It of course will be more for multi battery/cell mods and higher end chipsets, but even on occasion there it is possible to find some real bargains.
But any SS will be fine, but for TC mode SS430 is pretty good due to it having a high TCR which makes it more accurate.
And TC has kind of come a long way now, you should be able to source a single battery mod with reasonable TC performance for less than 30 USD on the cheaper end of what's available. It of course will be more for multi battery/cell mods and higher end chipsets, but even on occasion there it is possible to find some real bargains.
I've never had issues with kanthal personally, I don't get a metallic taste. But everyone is different and experiences vary widely.
The deal/problem with 'wattage mode' and wire that increases in resistance as it heats up involves not only the sometimes drastic reduction of your mods efficiency (and battery life) but a possible 'thermal run-a-way' of the coil and/or the mod itself.
Explanation:
Given the two Ohms Law equations: "P=I*E" and "E=I*R" where -
P = Power
E = Voltage
I = Current
R = Resistance
Lets have a 1ohm coil (just to make things easy) and a setting of 40W. The initial MOD setting will be 6.32V (a real battery drain for single battery devices as 'boosting' a voltage is generally horribly inefficient) and 6.32A (while that is the current at the COIL the MOD itself might be drawing MUCH more than that to make the 6.32V!!).
Keep in mind that the HIGHER the voltage needs to be stepped up from the battery supply voltage the LESS efficient the mod will be and the more power will be wasted in heat of the mod itself.
So the wire heats up and NOW the coil is 1.5ohms. What is the voltage and current at the same 40W? 7.74V and 5.16A!! While the amperage at the coil dropped the mod has to step the voltage up to 7.74V to keep providing the same wattage.
How about 2ohms? (wire types with good/decent TCR's quite often can DOUBLE their cold/room temperature resistance values when "vaping temperature" is reached (IE: ~400F). Here the mod will be trying to output 8.9V @ 4.47A to maintain the 40W output setting. (NOTE: Mod reviewers never measure the ACTUAL current draw on the battery(s) or attempt to calculate the mods efficiency)
So our poor mod is now attempting to step up our 3.2-4.2V single battery to 2-3X the battery voltage!
This will keep going as long as the coil keeps getting hotter until the mod reaches its maximum output voltage or the battery(s) have been drained. (and YES they will drain fairly fast trying to make that BIG of a step up!)
IMHO: a MUCH better method of regulation that may be missing on many modern mods is VOLTAGE mode. Simply set the voltage and leave it. As the coil wire heats up it will gradually draw less and less current/power from the mod as its resistance is increasing with its temperature.
Astute users can use "steamengine.com" to wind coils optimized for ~3.6V (approx midway in the battery discharge curve) to achieve maximum battery life) so the mod is spending 1/2 the time stepping down the battery voltage and the other 1/2 stepping it up slightly.
So what about "thermal run-a-way"??
Given multi-battery mods with fairly high to very high output power and very high maximum voltage with wire that changes resistance depending on its temperature things can go very wrong.
While many of the less expensive mods will measure the coil resistance at rest (not firing) however some chipsets will ether make multiple measurements per second or CONTINUOUSLY measure the coil resistance when firing resulting in the output voltage stepping up until the maximum output voltage is reached and/or the wick/coil catches fire (or both) or the user removes their finger from the fire button.
This my friends is why TCR wire ought not be used in Wattage mode.
YMMV.
g.
Explanation:
Given the two Ohms Law equations: "P=I*E" and "E=I*R" where -
P = Power
E = Voltage
I = Current
R = Resistance
Lets have a 1ohm coil (just to make things easy) and a setting of 40W. The initial MOD setting will be 6.32V (a real battery drain for single battery devices as 'boosting' a voltage is generally horribly inefficient) and 6.32A (while that is the current at the COIL the MOD itself might be drawing MUCH more than that to make the 6.32V!!).
Keep in mind that the HIGHER the voltage needs to be stepped up from the battery supply voltage the LESS efficient the mod will be and the more power will be wasted in heat of the mod itself.
So the wire heats up and NOW the coil is 1.5ohms. What is the voltage and current at the same 40W? 7.74V and 5.16A!! While the amperage at the coil dropped the mod has to step the voltage up to 7.74V to keep providing the same wattage.
How about 2ohms? (wire types with good/decent TCR's quite often can DOUBLE their cold/room temperature resistance values when "vaping temperature" is reached (IE: ~400F). Here the mod will be trying to output 8.9V @ 4.47A to maintain the 40W output setting. (NOTE: Mod reviewers never measure the ACTUAL current draw on the battery(s) or attempt to calculate the mods efficiency)
So our poor mod is now attempting to step up our 3.2-4.2V single battery to 2-3X the battery voltage!
This will keep going as long as the coil keeps getting hotter until the mod reaches its maximum output voltage or the battery(s) have been drained. (and YES they will drain fairly fast trying to make that BIG of a step up!)
IMHO: a MUCH better method of regulation that may be missing on many modern mods is VOLTAGE mode. Simply set the voltage and leave it. As the coil wire heats up it will gradually draw less and less current/power from the mod as its resistance is increasing with its temperature.
Astute users can use "steamengine.com" to wind coils optimized for ~3.6V (approx midway in the battery discharge curve) to achieve maximum battery life) so the mod is spending 1/2 the time stepping down the battery voltage and the other 1/2 stepping it up slightly.
So what about "thermal run-a-way"??
Given multi-battery mods with fairly high to very high output power and very high maximum voltage with wire that changes resistance depending on its temperature things can go very wrong.
While many of the less expensive mods will measure the coil resistance at rest (not firing) however some chipsets will ether make multiple measurements per second or CONTINUOUSLY measure the coil resistance when firing resulting in the output voltage stepping up until the maximum output voltage is reached and/or the wick/coil catches fire (or both) or the user removes their finger from the fire button.
This my friends is why TCR wire ought not be used in Wattage mode.
YMMV.
g.
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Manny of those “studies” carefully avoid exactly how much there actually is. Detectable and significant are different things. One way to think of it is how much toxicity is there compared to say, regular city air. who funded the study can be a big deal. It’s not uncommon for them to be the equivelent of ‘push-polls’ . Designed to give a result that is a net benefit to the funder. It’s so prevalent that just about any study that tracks back to a group with an agenda needs to be looked at real carefully.
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