On the question of nicotine penetration rate and manner

Status
Not open for further replies.

cookiebun

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 6, 2011
1,296
616
Central Ohio
10 ml of 6 mg/ml eliquid does indeed contain 60 mg of nicotine. Around here people commonly confuse concentration (mg/ml) with total dose (mg).

It's just math.

Ack!
So I really am sucking down 60 mg of nic a day.
I think that's more than when I was smoking.
You'd have to absorb that all at once for it to do serious damage, correct?
The effect on someone with no nicotine tolerance would be pretty bad.
 
Last edited:

cookiebun

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 6, 2011
1,296
616
Central Ohio
Last edited:

markfm

Aussie Pup Wrangler
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 9, 2010
15,268
45,866
Beautiful Baldwinsville (CNY)
Check Health, Safety and E-Smoking, there are some reports where they have measured nicotine absorbtion when vaping.

Typical filtered cig is 1mg nic.

Cigs have CO, MAOIs, and some freebase nic, a faster, and longer lasting, effect than vaping.

I vape 6 ml per day of 20mg/ml, no bad effects.
 
Last edited:

JackSam

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 10, 2010
140
19
43
NY USA
Ack!
So I really am sucking down 60 mg of nic a day.
He's talking about spilling an entire bottle onto his skin.

If you are smoking 10 ML at 6mg/ml then no you are not taking in 60mg of nicotine per day only that bottle of liquid contains 60mg of nicotine. Not all of it is vaporized, and not everything that's vaporized may necessarily be absorbed.

I can't recall the numbers but there were a few threads that allowed you to come to a rough mathematical estimate between your cigarette intake and vaping intake. General consensus was that most require some certain amount and will end up self regulating into the zone their body desired to be in. i.e. if you vape 1ml per day of 12mg/ml, and you switch to 6mg/ml you'd likely end up vaping 2ml per day without even realizing it.

Also I'd like to say if you smoke 10 ML / day, I think that's really excessive.
 

cookiebun

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 6, 2011
1,296
616
Central Ohio
10 mls is approximately 3/4 of a tablespoon.
I vape that much because I can vape where I couldn't smoke. I usually carry 4 cartomizers which I top off about 3 times a day.
I usually have a bit of a headache after work and switch to 0 nic.



7/8/11
I don't vape 10 mls a day. I was looking at a 6 ml bottle and thought it was a 10ml bottle.
 
Last edited:

DuncanDisordely

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 17, 2011
413
49
London
I don't know if someone has already covered this (I might not have seen the post) but the absorbtion ratio is different for pv vapour to analog smoke. Vapour apparently isn't that easily absorbed and (don't quote me) I've seen it said that as little as 10% is absorbed. Personally I don't think you vaping 10ml a day works out to any more than you were previously smoking.

Saying that, and going back to OP OQ, I mix from 54mg nic and always use gloves and a spill mat. I don't care who may call me over zealous with safety I'd rather be called a chicken than be standing over one of my children (or even my dog) if a mistake were to occur.

Happy (safe) vaping to everyone! :)
 

newcomer

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 3, 2011
154
6
Woodlands
Thanks Mark that was exactly what I was looking for, good solid information written by professionals in the forms of medical journals backed by research and experiments. I googled dermal absorption of nicotine and all I got was nicotine patches. I must be typing the wrong jargon that's why I ask here.

If anyone is interested here's a sub link from Mark's: In vitro test of nicotine's permeability through human skin. Risk evaluation and safety aspects on the permeability of nicotine, pure and mixed. It even touched on different types of gloves used. Highly relevant information IMHO.

"The length of contact time affected the amount of
substance passing the skin, resulting in great difference between 3 and 5 min contact time,
5 min giving higher nicotine concentration and 3 min lower. This emphasizes the importance of
washing away nicotine spilled on skin rapidly."


TBH I instinctively concluded that nicotine, if mixed with e liquid base, would not be as dangerous as it would be pure, analogous to "packing nicotine in a can", the can being the mixture base. However, I couldn't live with instincts alone so I asked the experts here, hence I made an exaggerated example of 10ml of 6mg/ml concentration(the resultant nicotine dosage being 60mg, a lethal dosage if absorbed in a relatively short time) spillage in a bathtub full of water. Not highly probable, but possible. Knowing now what is flux, effects of PH, I have a better state of mind shipping nicotine "locked" in e liquid.

End of the day, mixed eliquid, whether 6 mg/ml or 36 mg/ml, as well as nic base, whether 24 mg/ml or 100 mg/ml, should be kept away from kids and pets. Bottles should be marked, and not put near other similar sized bottles (e.g., not next to eye drops). Spilled liquid, whether 6 mg or 100 mg strength, should be cleaned up promptly -- at the 60-100 mg/ml end of the spectrum I keep my DIY supplies, including waste, segregated, inaccessible to kids and pets.

Others have suggested you google nicotine dermal (or transdermal) absorption. From In vitro test of nicotine's permeability through human skin. Risk evaluation and safety aspects one sees: "Permeation rate (flux) ... was found to be low when using ethanol as a vehicle; flux was also pH-dependent. The nicotine–water solution containing acetic acid had the lowest flux. " and "The length of contact time affected the amount of substance passing the skin, resulting in great difference between 3 and 5min contact time, 5min giving higher nicotine concentration and 3min lower. This emphasizes the importance of washing away nicotine spilled on skin rapidly. "

Beyond that, the bit about putting eliquid in the bath is, frankly, more than a bit odd, assuming one obeys the fundamental rules of clear marking and segregation from other liquids using similar containers.
 
Last edited:

newcomer

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 3, 2011
154
6
Woodlands
Ack!
So I really am sucking down 60 mg of nic a day.
I think that's more than when I was smoking.
You'd have to absorb that all at once for it to do serious damage, correct?
The effect on someone with no nicotine tolerance would be pretty bad.

I believe 60mg(volume) being the lethal dosage meant administering it intravenously and getting the full blown effect into your bloodstream almost instantly. To visualize it, 60mg(volume) is about 2-3 drops. Your 10ml bottle probably had one fifth of a drop of free base nicotine in it.

Before I switched to vaping the cigs I smoked contained .2 milligrams of nic per cig. That's .2 x20 = 4. Correct?
So I was getting 4 milligrams of nicotine a day on my brand?
Holy crap, no wonder I get headaches.
Nicotine, Tar, and CO Content of Menthol Cigarette Brands
Nicotine, Tar, and CO Content of Domestic Cigarettes

Well if it's labeled nic 0.2mg on your label then yes you're taking 0.2mg per stick. But that's the absorb rate, a cigarette stick contains 15-25mg of nic, or 0.2~0.3% percentage against the weight of tobacco per stick.

Looking at it I think your trying to feed your ex 4mg/day intake with 6mg of vaping but somehow you found out yesterday you were actually vaping 60mg(volume) of nicotine per day? Taking absorption rate of nicotine in vaping to be 50%, you're in fact consuming 30mg(volume)/day which is roughly equivalent to 7 packs/day of your brand. It's no wonder you get headaches at the end of the day lol. Anyways it's your body so I'll reserve my comments on your current intake of 60mg nicotine per day.

He's talking about spilling an entire bottle onto his skin.

If you are smoking 10 ML at 6mg/ml then no you are not taking in 60mg of nicotine per day only that bottle of liquid contains 60mg of nicotine. Not all of it is vaporized, and not everything that's vaporized may necessarily be absorbed.

I can't recall the numbers but there were a few threads that allowed you to come to a rough mathematical estimate between your cigarette intake and vaping intake. General consensus was that most require some certain amount and will end up self regulating into the zone their body desired to be in. i.e. if you vape 1ml per day of 12mg/ml, and you switch to 6mg/ml you'd likely end up vaping 2ml per day without even realizing it.

Also I'd like to say if you smoke 10 ML / day, I think that's really excessive.

Yes I mentioned a spillage of an entire 10ml bottle of 6mg nicotine concentration, though entire of it = 3/4 tablespoon. Doesn't sound like a lot now isn't it. Although there is 60mg(volume) of nicotine in a 10ml bottle with 6mg/ml concentration, it's not as dangerous as pure free base nicotine 60mg(volume) if we consider the flux factor.

I vape 36/ml 3-4ml daily...I was a pack a day smoker....I must metabolize/absorb differently than most. No headaches or ill effects...

I think how much nicotine is inhaled via vaping has a great deal to do with how your vape, like drawing rate, resistance of coils, humidity, hold off, etc.

1)Obviously, the longer you hold that vapor in your lungs, the more nicotine in it gets absorbed into the system.

2)Shorter intervals between puffs puts more nicotine into the system in a shorter amount of time, hence the buzz. I remember few days ago I was vaping non stop with 6mg concentration. I vaped approximately 0.3-0.5ml in less than 1 hr. An hour later I had bad stomach aches and other unmistakable symptoms from nic OD. It works out to be about 3 fags in 1 hr. I concluded that the symptoms were due to how fast nicotine gets absorbed ,not so much by how much. The difference could be in seconds, like how much a difference 5mins of exposure to pure nicotine make as compared to 3mins.

3)Style. I was doing french inhalation, exhaling through nose while dragging, smoke rings and all sorts of stupid things.

4) Evaporation rate. Having a large tank might not necessarily be good. Hate how bland the last few analogs taste like? Love the TH off a fresh pack when you were a smoker? I do notice a lesser TH as my cartos depletes. How fast nicotine evaporates in different concentration and mixture is yet another field to be explored in e cigarettes, I think.

An e cigarette is as good as how you use it, hence why so many smokers still turn away from it.
 

newcomer

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 3, 2011
154
6
Woodlands
I can vape 10 mls of 6mg nicotine a day easy. I imagine that does far more harm to my lungs than getting it on my skin would do.

Yes, if you spread 10mls of 6mg/ml strength being a resultant nicotine volume of 60mg throughout 24hrs of intake(not absorbed), that's probably more than fine.

What I don't want to see happen with this thread is some joker to chime in "
" No you'd need nicotine to be at X mg before you'd get a lethal dose through the skin" and actually state a lethal or very toxic dose of nic.

I think it takes much less than 24hrs for 10mls of 6mg/ml nicotine strength e liquid, being a resultant nicotine volume of 60mg, to seep into the skin if spilled. It certainly isn't death threatening considering flux, metabolism, evaporation, etc.

:)
 

randyith

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 5, 2011
1,428
2,155
66
North Carolina, USA
I don't know if someone has already covered this (I might not have seen the post) but the absorbtion ratio is different for pv vapour to analog smoke. Vapour apparently isn't that easily absorbed and (don't quote me) I've seen it said that as little as 10% is absorbed. Personally I don't think you vaping 10ml a day works out to any more than you were previously smoking.

Saying that, and going back to OP OQ, I mix from 54mg nic and always use gloves and a spill mat. I don't care who may call me over zealous with safety I'd rather be called a chicken than be standing over one of my children (or even my dog) if a mistake were to occur.

Happy (safe) vaping to everyone!

Excellent point. You should always wear gloves and some protective clothing when mixing. Most importantly is to label each bottle and keep it away from children. Also make sure no drops reach your rug or floor so your pets do not lick it up later. Frankly, protecting your children and pets is important because they are the ones most at risk. Also use safety glasses. A drop or 2 in your eye or other mucus membranes will be absorbed extremely fasy. Trust me, I know first hand.

If you were a heavy smoker and still vape 24 mg juice each day you have more nicotine tolerance than you realize. My bottle filling machine tubing burst last week and I got my 3 left fingers sprayed with 998mg pure nicotine and I am still here.
 
Last edited:

newcomer

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 3, 2011
154
6
Woodlands
Excellent point. You should always wear gloves and some protective clothing when mixing.

My bottle filling machine tubing burst last week and I got my 3 left fingers sprayed with 998mg pure nicotine and I am still here.

Did you wash it off your skin immediately? Any ill effects from it?

Surprise surprise. According to In Vitro Test of Nicotine's Permeability through Human Skin. Risk Evaluation and Safety Aspects by SARA ZORIN, FREDRIK KUYLENSTIERNA and HANS THULIN, Pure nicotine actually has a dermal penetration rate of 82.0µg/cm2h as compared to 1341.5µg/cm2h if it were mixed with 50%w/w with water! Water is probably to the worst "shield" to contain nicotine. However, penetration rate of nicotine with different ratio mix is not linear, instead resembling more of a trapezoid graph.

Also of interest to note, even purpose made gloves for handling chemicals has a break through time of approximately 10mins when pure nicotine was applied. This could potentially be hazardous if the unwitting DIY-er delayed to wash his/her gloves thinking a rubber gloves offer superior protection. To complicate matters, the sweat(mostly water) underneath your gloves can be a potential source of penetration catalyst.

Ethanol and acidic mix were found to be the best penetration inhibitor. No tests were conducted for glycols mix.
 
Last edited:

DuncanDisordely

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 17, 2011
413
49
London
Also of interest to note, even purpose made gloves for handling chemicals has a break through time of approximately 10mins when pure nicotine was applied. This could potentially be hazardous if the unwitting DIY-er delayed to wash his/her gloves thinking a rubber gloves offer superior protection. To complicate matters, the sweat(mostly water) underneath your gloves can be a potential source of penetration catalyst.

That's why I said in an earlier post (was it on this thread>?not sure) - that I'm not moving up from 54mg until I can upgrade my glove supply. At the moment I am using what my g/f brings home from work (she's a nurse) and I dispose of them immediately, but I wouldnt handle more than 54mg with them and not for very long either. I'd read about the glove protection factors and efficacy and frankly it's scary! Better safe than sorry.

Our dog is a miniature schnouzer, we treat him like another child and the kids call him brother, my world would end if anything happened to him as a result of my nicotine habit :(

Happy Vaping! :)
 

cookiebun

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 6, 2011
1,296
616
Central Ohio
snip
If you were a heavy smoker and still vape 24 mg juice each day you have more nicotine tolerance than you realize. My bottle filling machine tubing burst last week and I got my 3 left fingers sprayed with 998mg pure nicotine and I am still here.

Holy cow!:shock:
You are working with a vapor hood I assume?
 

kenetix

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 17, 2009
470
137
46
Illinois
http://annhyg.oxfordjournals.org/content/43/6/405.full.pdf

Although rinsing of nicotine from the donor com-
partment was performed, levels of nicotine in the
receptor compartment continued to increase. This
showed that if contact time was long enough to
achieve absorption, skin would function as depot
for nicotine and rinsing would not draw it out. For
that reason, careful washing as soon as possible
when spilling nicotine on skin is very important.
 

newcomer

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 3, 2011
154
6
Woodlands
That's why I said in an earlier post (was it on this thread>?not sure) - that I'm not moving up from 54mg until I can upgrade my glove supply. At the moment I am using what my g/f brings home from work (she's a nurse) and I dispose of them immediately, but I wouldnt handle more than 54mg with them and not for very long either. I'd read about the glove protection factors and efficacy and frankly it's scary! Better safe than sorry.

Our dog is a miniature schnouzer, we treat him like another child and the kids call him brother, my world would end if anything happened to him as a result of my nicotine habit :(

Happy Vaping! :)

Unfortunately only few gloves come with penetration rating. Rubber gloves also degrade over time.

http://annhyg.oxfordjournals.org/content/43/6/405.full.pdf

Although rinsing of nicotine from the donor com-
partment was performed, levels of nicotine in the
receptor compartment continued to increase. This
showed that if contact time was long enough to
achieve absorption, skin would function as depot
for nicotine and rinsing would not draw it out. For
that reason, careful washing as soon as possible
when spilling nicotine on skin is very important.

Wash with lots of soap! It makes a huge difference.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread