nicotine exhaling

[quovadis]

I read an article today about experts being confused about second hand vapor.
They said that obviously second hand smoke is proven to be a bad thing, however one expert maintains that exhaling vapor containing nicotine is just as bad.

I have no clue if our vapor contains nicotine?
If so how much?
I really would like to know.

The other day i was vaping hard in the sitting room, and the florida sun was pouring into the room.
I could see lingering vapor in the air...
You know how you can sometimes see dust particles floating in the air...same sort of thing.
I wondered if my lingering vapor contained nicotine...

It's unbelievable nobody has tested this !!

 

[one_raven]

If, as they claim, you absorb so much less nicotine with a PV than with a cigarette, the vapor must contain nicotine.

I can't be sure, and since I can get away with it, I use mine in my office - but I will not use one around a baby.

 

[DaMulta]

The women just become addicted to you being around. Is that really a bad thing?

 

[TropicalBob]

The Health New Zealand tests showed a 98% absorption rate for the nicotine, so very little is exhaled into the air. And of course there's no sidestream or slipstream vapor, as there is with burning tobacco.

The low intake of nicotine is from the miniscule amount that is vaporized in the first place. I'd need at least 100mg nicotine strength liquid to match a cigarette. Thankfully, that strength is not available, so I have to make do with vaping more frequently and for longer intervals.

In essence, I vape every waking hour and use snus, nasal snuff, etc., at the same time, to match what 30 cigs a day could deliver.

 

[quovadis]

Thanks Tropical,
I feel somewhat better. That's exactly what i wanted to hear!
I wonder what these blinkered, philistine, pig-ignorant experts are confused about then?

 

[one_raven]

The Health New Zealand tests showed a 98% absorption rate for the nicotine, so very little is exhaled into the air. And of course there's no sidestream or slipstream vapor, as there is with burning tobacco.

The low intake of nicotine is from the miniscule amount that is vaporized in the first place. I'd need at least 100mg nicotine strength liquid to match a cigarette. Thankfully, that strength is not available, so I have to make do with vaping more frequently and for longer intervals.

In essence, I vape every waking hour and use snus, nasal snuff, etc., at the same time, to match what 30 cigs a day could deliver.

That doesn't seem to add up to me.
I use 35mg/ml and easily go through 3+ml/day.
Considering you absorb about 2mg of nicotine per cigarette, I would be absorbing as much as the equivalent of 45 cigarettes (or more) a day.

It just doesn't add up.

 

[TropicalBob]

I have never used more than 2ml a day. Never. Most days, 1ml or less. And, no, I'm not skimping. I'm using it up. I cannot imagine using 3 or 4ml a day. If you do, your nicotine numbers will be quite high.

I have no idea how you manage to stand up if you're doing 3ml of 36mg a day.

And cigs produce about 1mg of absorbed nicotine. My old cigs were 0.8mg per cig.

 

[The Wiz]

TB....I have using 3ml 36mg per day for quite some time now....I have yet to fall on my face. If it wasn't for work I would more than likely be up to at least 4ml per day!The wiz!

 

[one_raven]

This table from the New Zealand study seems to imply that there is an 18.75% absorption rate.
Am I reading it wrong?

 

[ladyraj]

One_Raven, I'm not sure what table you're referring to but the 18.75% absorbtion rate is more in keeping with the extrapolations based on normal respiration rates. If one merely looks at the numbers stated they are misleading on the surface. How could 98% of anything be absorbed and yet deliver a smaller dose? IV solutions have an average absorption rate of 95%. I doubt that inhalation of a dose is more effective method of delivery than an IV drip.

 

[one_raven]

Where is this 98% number coming from?

 

[TropicalBob]

That table (the one I saw) is deliverable dose. And that dose is roughly 1/10th the nicotine strength of a puff on a tobacco cigarette. Dr. Laugesen, admittedly, has given different estimates of how much nicotine is contained in a single inhalation of vapor from a 16mg cart. But I'd bet 1/10th is correct.

Now, with both the e-cig and the cig, about 98% of available nicotine is absorbed. I'll quote his research below. But you can extrapolate what it means for you. For me, I have to vape all day and still use other nicotine sources.

I've waded through lots of research and cannot pinpoint the exact quote on 98.8% absorption of nicotine in vapor. But it's there. It was discussed extensively more than a year ago on this forum. Here are some relevant paragraphs from his research that I did find and kept:

4.1 Correct dose. Each smoker is accustomed to a certain amount of nicotine each day. This varies greatly between smokers, but for each smoker, varies little from day to day. Heavy tobacco cigarette smokers in the United States smoking an average 36 cigarettes (range 20-62) per day absorb about 37 mg per day (range 10-79 mg). The e-cigarette can supply 16 mg nicotine per day. Non-inhalers and smokers of light cigarettes inhale less nicotine. If smoking one cartridge of the 16 mg e-cigarette per day is not able to control cravings, a second e-cartridge for the day might be needed.

Dosimetry. It is available in pipe and cigar forms. The nicotine in the cartridge comes in four strengths, of 16 mg, 11 mg, 6 mg and 0 mg nicotine content. Ten e-puffs equal one tobacco puff for nicotine for the Ruyan brand, but this is approximate only.

An e-cigarette user will need to take more puffs more often, and deeper puffs confer no advantage for V8 users.

Inhaled nicotine in cigarette smoke is over 98% absorbed, and so the exhaled mist of the e-cigarette is composed of propylene glycol, and probably contains almost no nicotine; and no CO.

A 35 mL puff from the Ruyan® V8 delivers only 10% of the nicotine obtained from a similar puff of a Marlboro regular cigarette. Deeper 50 mL puffs from the Ruyan V8 delivers only slightly more nicotine.

 

[one_raven]

I wish someone would just break this down in plain english and comparable, real numbers...

Example:
If you smoke one cigarette, your body will actually absorb approximately 1.2mg of nicotine.
If you vaporize 10mg of nicotine within juice (for example, 1 ml of 10mg/ml juice, or .5ml of 20mg/ml of juice) youur body will absorb approximately .8mg of nicotine.

Why can't we just have a table based on those numbers?

Or even better...

Brand...........|......strength........|......qty.......|.......mg absorbed
Marlboro.......|......full...............|...1 cig........|.........1.2
Marlboro.......|......light..............|...1 cig........|..........1.3
ECOPure.......|....25mg/ml..........|......1ml.......|.........3.6
ECOPure.......|....36mg/ml..........|......1ml.......|.........4.7


OR something like that!

 

[hxj]

From what I can tell, the numbers are all over the place, and I've grown tired of trying to reconcile them. I'm pretty sure the same NZ study that claimed that there was "probably" almost no nicotine in the exhaled vapor (they didn't actually test it, but made a guess anyway) found that it took ten puffs on an e-cig loaded with 16 mg/ml liquid to cause the same serum nicotine increase as one puff on a cigarette. Where are they supposing the missing nicotine went?

Based on what numbers are available, I have to conclude that, yes, there's nicotine in exhaled vapor unless you're using zero-nicotine liquids. If nothing else, it seems physically impossible that every droplet of nicotine-containing water in the "vapor" comes in contact with your body and deposits its nicotine. But that's just my interpretation of the data. Has no one really tested the exhaled vapor itself? I know that the FDA tests analyzed the vapor drawn directly out of an e-cig, but not 2nd-hand vapor.

If I didn't vape zero-nic liquids, I personally wouldn't vape in my house or near my kid.

 

[one_raven]

It seems to me that any droplet that comes into contact with your internal organs would be deposited and not be exhaled, so every droplet you exhale has nicotine in it.
It is a water droplet, either it will stick to your lungs/mouth/tongue, or it will "float" until you exhale it.

Until I see some real, reliable numbers, I will continue to refuse to use a PV around a baby.
At the same time, until someone can show me real numbers, I will continue to smoke in the office. :^)

 

[ladyraj]

I'm not sure about this 98% absorption rate for cigarettes or the PV...

If: A tobacco cigarette contains 6 to 11 mg of nicotine, of which the smoker typically absorbs 1 to 3 mg; see Henningfield N Engl J Med 333:1196-1203 (1995).

Then: the cigarette is a poor delivery device...or,

"As intrapulmonary administration is not 100% efficient, the amount of drug aerosolized will be greater than the amount that actually reaches the patient's circulation. For example, if the inhalation system used is only 50% efficient then the patient will aerosolize a dose which is twice that needed to raise the patient's nicotine level to the extent needed to obtain the desired results. More specifically, when attempting to administer 1 mg of nicotine with a delivery system known to be 50% efficient, the patient will aerosolize an amount of formulation containing about 2 mg of nicotine."

I doubt that our PVs are as efficient as have been proposed as there are too many variables to control to assess it's efficacy. But I also doubt that exhaled nicotine from our PVs are a danger to anyone or anything when your referring to levels such as this:

"The systemic dose of nicotine per puff is extremely variable, however, peak plasma concentrations of 25 to 40 ng/mL of nicotine, achieved within 5 to 7 minutes by cigarette smoking, are believed typical. In accordance with the present invention, about 0.05 to about 3 mg, preferably about 0.3 to about 1 mg, preferentially about 0.3 to about 0.7 mg of nicotine are delivered to the lungs of the patient in a single dose to achieve peak blood plasma concentrations of 10 to 40 ng/mL."

These are nanograms per milliliter

nanogram - one billionth (1/1,000,000,000) gram
1 teaspoon (tsp) = 5 milliliter (ml)

The "invention" mentioned above with the myriad of informational tidbits is for..."Dual release nicotine formations, systems, and methods for their use". This is a link to info from the patent application. It's an interesting topic.

DUAL RELEASE NICOTINE FORMULATIONS, AND SYSTEMS AND METHODS FOR THEIR USE - Patent Application 20090004249

From what I understand it's not the nicotine one should worry about...and..it's the dose that makes the poison.

Edit: I do realize the patent application was not specifically written for the e-cig but it actually encompasses the technology and delivery method. Hmmm!

 

[Kitabz]

It seems to me that any droplet that comes into contact with your internal organs would be deposited and not be exhaled, so every droplet you exhale has nicotine in it.
It is a water droplet, either it will stick to your lungs/mouth/tongue, or it will "float" until you exhale it.

Yes, this seems right to me. There is no way that our respiratory system can magically strip the nicotine out of the vapour but ignore the PG, VG, water and flavourings.

When we exhale, it's going to be largely whatever we inhaled minus whatever stuck to the surfaces whilst inside. The exhaled vapour volume after a deep lung inhale is maybe 25%-50% of a mouth only inhale (which itself will lose some volume) so 20% absorption is not unreasonable.

The only way we could get anywhere near 98% would be to hold the vapour inside until it's all been deposited and the exhale is invisible (and even then I doubt it would be that high).