Made a choice today. Diacetyl & AP.

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lirruping

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They don't even show a full MSDS sheet...
If you want to see real results look at FlavourArt and there chemist do a cytotoxicity in vapor form test or email Linda at TFA.
The new ester of choice now is called butyric acid and the only one using it now is FlavourArt

From what I can tell, FlavourArt has provided the most data as to what's in their products. They have an e-cig line of flavorings as well as a kitchen line, and as far as I know, everything they make with diacetyl has been moved into the kitchen category.

Electronic Cigarette -

I'm pretty sure I saw some of the new flavors at The Flavorer's Apprentice use butyric acid as well. Apparently it can taste like puke--that is the most memorable thing I've read about BA. I'm not experienced with it.

Like so many, I've been trying to find some compromise with this "bad stuff in the juice" situation for myself. For the moment I've arrived at DIY using mostly flavors from Flavourart's e-cig line. I'm still at a point with my dependency issues/sense of vulnerability to smoking that I haven't given up the known-to-be-at-least-somewhat-dangerous flavors completely--but I am working toward that and trying to keep up on the research.

Sparkky: the dropbox link you posted with a list of Material Data Safety Sheets on products-- is that a personal project or..? It would be really helpful to me if you could say something about who is working on that and what the scope of it is? I can't tell right away whether the products listed are flavors or juices, whether they come from one or more vendors, etc.
 

AndriaD

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YWIW the experts do not recommend natural flavorings for vaping.

And even the "vape safe" flavors with organic ingredients are MASSIVE gunkers; I'm having to rewick/dry-burn twice a day with my strawberries and cream, which is made with Inawera Shisha Strawberry -- it contains organic natural strawberry essence, and it gunks the hell out of wicks AND coils.

Andria
 

lirruping

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Also, the company "Nicvape" claims to have D & AP free flavorings. FWIW, there has been some controversy about them--both their claims & their customer service, but are probably worth checking out for anyone trying to learn more/reduce baddies in vaping. They are AEMSA members. That's an extremely costly prospect for any vendor and I couldn't tell you exactly what AEMSA membership translates to in terms of vaping safety. In fact, that question may not have a simple answer.

They do batch testing, however, fwiw, before releasing each batch of juice/DIY flavoring. The consumer has access to the results of those tests (tests regarding the specific bottle of juice or flavoring they have already purchased) through typing into their website a batch number found on the bottle.
 

InTheShade

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I just got together an entire order on bull city vapors to find out they don't take paypal :(

Most e-cig suppliers and e-liquid vendors located in the US will not accept Paypal. This is due to a TOS clause that specifically prohibits the use of Paypal to buy and sell these items.
Flavor vendors may or may not be subject to these same TOS and I suggest you contact your preferred vendor prior to trying to place an order for clarification.

Only vendors I know that accept Paypal (officially) are located outside of the US and are therefore subject to different terms of service.
 

lirruping

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And even the "vape safe" flavors with organic ingredients are MASSIVE gunkers; I'm having to rewick/dry-burn twice a day with my strawberries and cream, which is made with Inawera Shisha Strawberry -- it contains organic natural strawberry essence, and it gunks the hell out of wicks AND coils.

Andria

Even the organics--ESPECIALLY the organics, lol. That whole concept of "natural" and "organic" in vaping is misleading and disingenuous. Remember, butter is 100% "natural", and may be "organic", and you can eat it all day long... (well, I can) but it contains diacetyl. I know this point is made over and over but inhalation is not the same as ingestion, and carries a different set of risks.
 

TREX2014

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Just bought some PG/VG oil and PG based nic extract along with some flavors that claim no dc/ap in them from bcv, I called them and talked to them on the phone they were very nice and told me that about the vendors who provide the flavors listed on their site, and that some of the flavor vendors they sell dont tell them if they contain DC/AP or not, but the ones that claim no DC/AP like the ones from the flavor apprentice are dc/ap free.
Till my stuff gets here I'm going to keep on vapin this flavorless 9mg.
I may vape the kings crown like a cigar without inhaling, who knows.

I'll let you guys know how it goes
 

AndriaD

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Paypal has banned the use of it's site for ecigerette purchases.

14 things PayPal won't let you buy | Digital Trends

Yep, the dimwits. I love paypal, but please... :facepalm: One thing, though -- there are other items that vapers need which are more general-purpose -- bottles, syringes, all that kind of junk, and you can get that stuff on amazon for excellent prices, and use paypal, since it's amazon. Also some of that stuff on ebay, which also recently published a no-vape-stuff rule. They can't impose that kind of silliness on general purpose items like bottles and syringes; also, stuff like citric acid, to put in ejuice -- it's also used in canning, household cleaning, and other stuff, so it's on amazon, and you can use paypal. I get all my PG and VG from amazon, best price and best shipping price I've seen.

You just have to know what items aren't considered "general purpose," and get those from the vendors that cater to vaping -- wizard labs is a good example -- they sell a lot of general purpose "lab" type stuff, but also a lot of vaping stuff -- chemicals, tools to handle the chemicals, flavors, and maybe most important, nicotine.

Andria
 

Caprilli

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Even the organics--ESPECIALLY the organics, lol. That whole concept of "natural" and "organic" in vaping is misleading and disingenuous. Remember, butter is 100% "natural", and may be "organic", and you can eat it all day long... (well, I can) but it contains diacetyl. I know this point is made over and over but inhalation is not the same as ingestion, and carries a different set of risks.

There is certainly a difference between inhaling and digestion which is why the butter flavor has to state that it DOES indeed contain diacetyl but I can make a choice of vaping it or not. At least I only have to avoid certain flavors and let's face it - organic or lab manufactured, none of the ingredients have been tested for vaping over a prolonged time period but I prefer my nic to come from Tobacco plants, that have not been sprayed with pesticides and lab manufactured fertilizers.

Having grown up in the countryside, surrounded by farmers it is very clear to me that both farmers and landscape gardeners (except the organic variety) are some of the biggest pollutants.
 

lirruping

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There is certainly a difference between inhaling and digestion which is why the butter flavor has to state that it DOES indeed contain diacetyl but I can make a choice of vaping it or not. At least I only have to avoid certain flavors and let's face it - organic or lab manufactured, none of the ingredients have been tested for vaping over a prolonged time period but I prefer my nic to come from Tobacco plants, that have not been sprayed with pesticides and lab manufactured fertilizers.

Having grown up in the countryside, surrounded by farmers it is very clear to me that both farmers and landscape gardeners (except the organic variety) are some of the biggest pollutants.

I don't mean to cast aspersions on natural or organic products generally. Clearly, the more natural and organic foods are, the better!

My comments were specifically directed at the vape-related products labeled and/or made with organic/natural ingredients, labeled as such with the full knowledge that most people will assume that these labels entail a greater degree of safety for vaping, when in fact, this is not true.
made-in-a-laboratory synthetic, are probably safer to vape than the vape flavorings/juices made from organic and/or natural ingredients/processes.
 

Caprilli

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My comments were specifically directed at the vape-related products labeled and/or made with organic/natural ingredients, labeled as such with the full knowledge that most people will assume that these labels entail a greater degree of safety for vaping, when in fact, this is not true.
made-in-a-laboratory synthetic, are probably safer to vape than the vape flavorings/juices made from organic and/or natural ingredients/processe
s.

See this is exactly what we cannot take for fact or granted. I had some very interesting conversations with a Bio-Chemist friend of mine about the topic. His wife also vapes so he looked into the matter a little further and all he could determine was that there simply isn't enough knowledge. This said, common sense has to apply. Generally speaking the label "natural" means that some natural ingredients are present but it does not mean that the produce is actually of JUST organic matter (as opposed to certified organic). We also all know that ...... is natural and that it is not good for us! So my decision went towards organic extracts, avoiding those, that contain elements that as of today are known to be harmful when vaped.

The beauty of this world is the fact, that some matters are still up to the individual, to decide :)

Edit: where you can see ......... is natural I actually used a word for a harmful drug, which apparently gets edited out by ECF.
 

sparkky1

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From what I can tell, FlavourArt has provided the most data as to what's in their products. They have an e-cig line of flavorings as well as a kitchen line, and as far as I know, everything they make with diacetyl has been moved into the kitchen category.

Electronic Cigarette -

I'm pretty sure I saw some of the new flavors at The Flavorer's Apprentice use butyric acid as well. Apparently it can taste like puke--that is the most memorable thing I've read about BA. I'm not experienced with it.

Like so many, I've been trying to find some compromise with this "bad stuff in the juice" situation for myself. For the moment I've arrived at DIY using mostly flavors from Flavourart's e-cig line. I'm still at a point with my dependency issues/sense of vulnerability to smoking that I haven't given up the known-to-be-at-least-somewhat-dangerous flavors completely--but I am working toward that and trying to keep up on the research.

Sparkky: the dropbox link you posted with a list of Material Data Safety Sheets on products-- is that a personal project or..? It would be really helpful to me if you could say something about who is working on that and what the scope of it is? I can't tell right away whether the products listed are flavors or juices, whether they come from one or more vendors, etc.

As I said you can email Linda at TFA and get the same MDS sheets, she has been great to work with, these are DIY flavors not juices......If and when the FDA get's involved you will see all juice vendors having to do this not just say what's not in it ...
 

lirruping

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See this is exactly what we cannot take for fact or granted. I had some very interesting conversations with a Bio-Chemist friend of mine about the topic. His wife also vapes so he looked into the matter a little further and all he could determine was that there simply isn't enough knowledge. This said, common sense has to apply.

Agreed, very little to nothing can be taken for granted. Common sense is looking at the available research--at least as deeply as I can given the limitations of my understanding of chemistry, relying on scientists who will speak in layman's terms beyond that--and making as informed a decision as possible.

Unfortunately (but predictably), much of the available "information" about flavorings is produced by flavor manufacturers themselves. Having said that, I felt this page was very useful:

Support & Informations :: About Flavors -

From the above link:

"Natural and artificial flavors are defined for the consumer in the Code of Federal Regulations. A key line from this definition is the following: " a natural flavor is the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional." Synthetic flavors are those that are made from components that do not meet this definition.

The question at hand, however, appears to be less a matter of legal definition than the "real" or practical difference between these two types of flavorings.
There is little substantive difference in the chemical compositions of natural and artificial flavorings. They are both made in a laboratory by a trained professional, a "flavorist," who blends appropriate chemicals together in the right proportions. The flavorist uses "natural" chemicals to make natural flavorings and "synthetic" chemicals to make synthetic flavorings. The flavorist creating synthetic flavoring must use the same chemicals in his formulation as would be used to make a natural flavoring, however. otherwise, the flavoring will not have the desired flavor. The distinction in flavorings--natural versus artificial--comes from the source of these identical chemicals and may be likened to saying that an apple sold in a gas station is artificial and one sold from a fruit stand is natural.

This issue is somewhat confusing to the average consumer in part because of other seeming parallels in the world. One can, for example, make a blue dye out of blueberry extract or synthetic pigments. These dyes are very different in chemical composition yet both yield a blue color. Similarly, consider one shirt made from wool and another from nylon. Both are shirts, but they have very different chemical compositions. This diversity of building blocks is not possible in flavorings--one makes a given flavor only by using specific chemicals. Thus, if a consumer purchases an apple beverage that contains an artificial flavor, she will ingest the same primary chemicals that she would take in if she had chosen a naturally flavored apple beverage and the same chemicals that nature provided during the apple ripening.
When making a flavor, the flavorist always begins by going to the scientific literature and researching what chemicals nature uses to make the desired flavor. He then selects from the list of flavor components found in, say, real apples, generally simplifying nature list to eliminate those chemicals that make little contribution to taste or are not permitted owing to toxicity. (Nature has no restrictions on using toxic chemicals, whereas the flavorist does.) The flavorist then either chooses chemicals that are natural (isolated from nature as described above) or synthetic chemicals (made by people) to make the flavor.

So is there truly a difference between natural and artificial flavorings? Yes. Artificial flavorings are simpler in composition and potentially safer because only safety-tested components are utilized. Another difference between natural and artificial flavorings is cost. The search for "natural" sources of chemicals often requires that a manufacturer go to great lengths to obtain a given chemical. Natural coconut flavorings, for example, depend on a chemical called massoya lactone. Massoya lactone comes from the bark of the Massoya tree, which grows in Malaysia. Collecting this natural chemical kills the tree because harvesters must remove the bark and extract it to obtain the lactone. Furthermore, the process is costly. This pure natural chemical is identical to the version made in an organic chemists laboratory, yet it is much more expensive than the synthetic alternative. Consumers pay a lot for natural flavorings. But these are in fact no better in quality, nor are they safer, than their cost-effective artificial counterparts."


The beauty of this world is the fact, that some matters are still up to the individual, to decide :)

Naturally :)
 

Caprilli

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Well I would say that the above statement is drastically simplified and would be the same comparison as corn grown naturally or GMO altered! One of the reasons lab manufactured chemicals are used in medication (such as an asthma inhaler) is the fact that you can only reproduce identical compounds in a lab. If natural ingredients would be used, the substance would vary each time as one leaf would have gotten x amount of sunshine and the other leaf would have received a different amount. These tiny little processes can totally alter the components.

Now the questions is.......... is it better for a substance to be the same all the time or is it better to have the variety that nature provides. Personally I believe in the latter and if more people would apply this to their daily life (and not just vaping) we would also see far less allergies and sensitivities as we would not be exposed to exactly the same, all the time.

The difference between an organically grown substance and a lab manufactured substance may not be great when it comes to the chemical compounds but lets's not forget that only 2% of our Genes differentiate us from Apes, so a tiny little difference can make a difference!

The next question would be to check for flavors that are heat stable, particularly for those on high end devices.

I hope my Genglish does not come across as too confused and I was able to explain well, what was explained to me.
 

lirruping

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I'm gonna respond inline inside of your quote, preceded by ">"

Well I would say that the above statement is drastically simplified and would be the same comparison as corn grown naturally or GMO altered!

> I'm not seeing that kind of gross comparison in the statement I pasted from the FlavourArt page at all. But I feel you--it's tricky--and there are lots of really good reasons (precedents, even) for not trusting a manufacturer of synthetic products designed for human consumption. Monsanto being perhaps the most major and creepy case in point. Apparently, several food flavoring compounders have notoriously lied and/or withheld information about the presence of diacetyl (and its questionable-at-best substitutes) in their products. My impression, however, is that the FA page I quoted from, above, is not an example of such deceit or obfuscation. I could be wrong. I do get most of my information from the internet :D

One of the reasons lab manufactured chemicals are used in medication (such as an asthma inhaler) is the fact that you can only reproduce identical compounds in a lab. If natural ingredients would be used, the substance would vary each time as one leaf would have gotten x amount of sunshine and the other leaf would have received a different amount. These tiny little processes can totally alter the components.

> Yes, and I think in the blurb I pasted this idea is addressed--or at least alluded to, however, not the specific instance of use of synthetic compounds vs. organic ingredients for pharmaceuticals since it's from a food/vape flavoring company's page:

>"There is little substantive difference in the chemical compositions of natural and artificial flavorings. They are both made in a laboratory by a trained professional, a "flavorist," who blends appropriate chemicals together in the right proportions. The flavorist uses "natural" chemicals to make natural flavorings and "synthetic" chemicals to make synthetic flavorings. The flavorist creating synthetic flavoring must use the same chemicals in his formulation as would be used to make a natural flavoring, however. otherwise, the flavoring will not have the desired flavor."

Now the questions is.......... is it better for a substance to be the same all the time or is it better to have the variety that nature provides. Personally I believe in the latter and if more people would apply this to their daily life (and not just vaping) we would also see far less allergies and sensitivities as we would not be exposed to exactly the same, all the time.

> Good point about natural variety in consumption and daily life. I try to stick to actual food, whenever possible... although in the U.S., they don't even legally have to tell us when we're eating, for instance, GMOs, so it's not as easy as it might seem.

The difference between an organically grown substance and a lab manufactured substance may not be great when it comes to the chemical compounds but lets's not forget that only 2% of our Genes differentiate us from Apes, so a tiny little difference can make a difference!

> You lost me with this...at least as far as its relevance to flavorings.

The next question would be to check for flavors that are heat stable, particularly for those on high end devices.

> Agreed, heat testing & volubility is an important stage of research, already in progress. I don't have the links at hand, but if you google "NYT editorial formaldehyde e-cigs" or the string "e cigarette research temperature of evaporation" you will find more info on this. See also the research of Dr. Farsalinos et al

I hope my Genglish does not come across as too confused and I was able to explain well, what was explained to me.

>Your Genglish is Great, no worries! Your typing skills, well... lol :D

EDIT: I gotta go to bed...good luck!
 
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Caprilli

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So I lost you on the apes and genes :) We are made of compounds just like plants or even lab manufactured flavors. The fact is, that there IS a tiny difference between all organic (as in matter and not certified) and lab manufactured flavors. The chemical difference may be very slight but so is our genetic difference to apes.

Maybe we should all vape chamomile plants and peppermint leaves until we know more :)
 
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